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Author Topic: mt gox loses another customer  (Read 3151 times)
hashalfahalve
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April 09, 2012, 08:16:10 PM
 #1

As a brand new bitcoiner I attempted to use Mt Gox. Why? Because that's "what everyone uses."

Total volume traded: 0.9BTC

Result?


Your account has been identified as particularly high risk by our assessment department. If you would like to continue with the verification process, please provide signed, notarized copies of the identification you have already submitted, so that your account may be upgraded to "trusted" status.

These documents must be sent to:

Mt.Gox AML
Cerulean Tower 15F,
Sakuragaoka-cho 26-1, Shibuya-ku
Tokyo, Japan
150-8512



Seriously? No, I will not get notarized documents and mail them to you on the other side of the world, goodbye.

Intersango/CampBX, here I come.

No reply necessary, just blew my mind what kind of operation that "company" is running.
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April 09, 2012, 08:18:54 PM
 #2

Same here, they are yet to process my deposit.
Plus, the bank wire fees are just a joke.
If theres only one big exchange whats the point in a decentralized currency?
They are now trying to police us aswell, blocking btc that is supposedly 'stolen'.
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April 09, 2012, 08:26:46 PM
 #3

Your account has been identified as particularly high risk by our assessment department.

Interesting.   Can you share any details why they might have come to that conclusion?   i.e., did you happen to connect using Tor, or were connected to an anoymous VPN provider, or from an access point available to the public?

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April 09, 2012, 08:28:13 PM
 #4

I think you guys forget the position that Gox is in. Any anti-Bitcoin policy or initiative from any government will be directed at MtGox, they will be attacked.

Because of this, and because they are extremely important (though not crucial), for the Bitcoin marketplace, they've made the wise decision to be extra careful about AML and KYC policies. This means they will seem draconian, and it will be annoying.

I'd advise you to think strategically, if we want Bitcoin to set its roots deep across the world, then it needs to grow and sustain itself for as long as possible before the dark statist forces attack it. The best way to ensure this, is for those companies which are more visible in Bitcoinland to "play it safe" and "follow the rules." It keeps the heat off, and allows Bitcoin to get stronger and stronger.

Think of it this way... them accommodating the state now affords the rest of us the opportunity to avoid bowing down later.

Annoying yes, necessary yes. Use another exchange if needed.
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April 09, 2012, 08:29:24 PM
 #5

Your account has been identified as particularly high risk by our assessment department.

Interesting.   Can you share any details why they might have come to that conclusion?   i.e., did you happen to connect using Tor, connected to an anoymous VPN provider, or from an access point available to the public?

The 0.9 BTC trade probably looked suspicious (as in low risk test), like a bot.
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April 09, 2012, 08:37:15 PM
 #6

I think you guys forget the position that Gox is in. Any anti-Bitcoin policy or initiative from any government will be directed at MtGox, they will be attacked.

Because of this, and because they are extremely important (though not crucial), for the Bitcoin marketplace, they've made the wise decision to be extra careful about AML and KYC policies. This means they will seem draconian, and it will be annoying.

I'd advise you to think strategically, if we want Bitcoin to set its roots deep across the world, then it needs to grow and sustain itself for as long as possible before the dark statist forces attack it. The best way to ensure this, is for those companies which are more visible in Bitcoinland to "play it safe" and "follow the rules." It keeps the heat off, and allows Bitcoin to get stronger and stronger.

Think of it this way... them accommodating the state now affords the rest of us the opportunity to avoid bowing down later.

Annoying yes, necessary yes. Use another exchange if needed.

Mr. Voorhees, you're often the voice of reason and definitely one of the most valuable posters here. I have to disagree here and say that the displeasure with these actions doesn't come from a lack of empathy to their situation, but from the way in which they've decided to be "extra careful."

If their policy is to refuse service to anyone who doesn't want to send their passport to a company who leaked their customer database through incompetence, or spend the $$ to get notarized documentation required from various countries - they need to be upfront about it.

Instead it seems that they often wait until someone will take a financial loss from frozen funds if they don't comply to let them know exactly how they operate. I consider this extremely unethical.

Not to mention this whole "tainted coin" fiasco, and their practice of sending people into a frenzied panic thinking their account was hacked when they can't log in, without even the courtesy of an email notification to let them know what's going on.


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April 09, 2012, 08:39:18 PM
 #7

unless you are doing daytrading, the best exchange is not using a exchange at all.
there is plenty of otc going out there.

If you don't own the private keys, you don't own the coins.
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April 09, 2012, 08:49:50 PM
 #8


If their policy is to refuse service to anyone who doesn't want to send their passport to a company who leaked their customer database through incompetence, or spend the $$ to get notarized documentation required from various countries - they need to be upfront about it.


When you sign up for an account, you are required to check 'I have read, understood and agree to the terms of service '

From TOS: https://mtgox.com/terms_of_service
Quote
Mt. Gox will request identification information (such as an identity card, invoices, Government issued photographic identification, utility bill, residential certificate, signed certification of cohabitation, or similar, banking information) depending on the amounts deposited on the Accounts or the presence of suspicious activity which may indicate money-laundering or other illegal activity.

Why are you acting surprised?

Marketing Plug: Regardless of what exchange you choose, you can use Bitinstant.com to instantly deposit and withdraw funds to and from 6 different exchanges!  Grin

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hashalfahalve
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April 09, 2012, 08:53:56 PM
 #9

I have to disagree here and say that the displeasure with these actions doesn't come from a lack of empathy to their situation, but from the way in which they've decided to be "extra careful."

I honestly didn't mean to start a tirade I was just steaming at the treatment.

I'm perfectly happy with KYC but I think it's very unprofessional the way they're doing it. I've never had a company accept me as a new client, take my money, and then instantly accuse me of being suspicious and saying my usage may "indicate money-laundering or other illegal activity".

Besides, it makes sense to use an exchange in your local jurisdiction for legal reasons. Perhaps I wouldn't be so angry if I lived in Japan and had to use the local mail service to send in my docs to a local company where I had access to local courts if it was misused.
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April 09, 2012, 08:59:59 PM
 #10

When you sign up for an account, you are required to check 'I have read, understood and agree to the terms of service '
Why are you acting surprised?

First of all, I'm not surprised any more. MtGox has shown time and time again that they have no respect for their customers. If you think their business practices are fine and dandy, I have to assume the same about you and your business.

Their TOS do not define what they regard as suspicious. Many customers, having been misled by this statement to believe that because they were NOT doing anything illicit, that they would be allowed to trade without trusting MtGox with that information, have been surprised and upset.


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Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem


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April 09, 2012, 09:15:10 PM
 #11


If their policy is to refuse service to anyone who doesn't want to send their passport to a company who leaked their customer database through incompetence, or spend the $$ to get notarized documentation required from various countries - they need to be upfront about it.


When you sign up for an account, you are required to check 'I have read, understood and agree to the terms of service '

From TOS: https://mtgox.com/terms_of_service
Quote
Mt. Gox will request identification information (such as an identity card, invoices, Government issued photographic identification, utility bill, residential certificate, signed certification of cohabitation, or similar, banking information) depending on the amounts deposited on the Accounts or the presence of suspicious activity which may indicate money-laundering or other illegal activity.

Why are you acting surprised?

Marketing Plug: Regardless of what exchange you choose, you can use Bitinstant.com to instantly deposit and withdraw funds to and from 6 different exchanges!  Grin

Since you already hijacked that thread for your market plug, I ask this naive question here:
Why is it, that you (BitInstant) add a 1.99% fee for a 500$ transfer from Dwolla to MtGox, when a direct Dwolla to MtGox transfer costs 0.25% (according to MtGox)?
Is there another level of service provided with that or what am I missing?


Yes, our customers who are doing heavy trading or those who prefer instant funding to their accounts pay a small premium.

They also enjoy our first class (5 star rated resellerratings.com/store/BitInstant) customer service which includes 24/7 real time order tracking

Obviously from this thread, customer service is important  Grin

When you sign up for an account, you are required to check 'I have read, understood and agree to the terms of service '
Why are you acting surprised?

First of all, I'm not surprised any more. MtGox has shown time and time again that they have no respect for their customers. If you think their business practices are fine and dandy, I have to assume the same about you and your business.

Their TOS do not define what they regard as suspicious. Many customers, having been misled by this statement to believe that because they were NOT doing anything illicit, that they would be allowed to trade without trusting MtGox with that information, have been surprised and upset.


Really? Did I really deserve that? If there is anyone who has questions about the practices of Bitinstant or myself, then can ask the majority of this forum.

Your right, MtGox gives themselves discretion over who they deem suspicious. Maybe they have a reason for this specific case, we dont know, and they only need to share it with the account owner, not us.

The reason I posted in this thread (As you can see I specifically did not comment on the actual situation) was just to make sure the facts were pointed out that MtGox does tell you that information will be collected, no surpises

If you think MtGox enjoys doing this, or likes going out of their way to spend more money on internal audits and compliance just so they can legally operate, then I have nothing left to say.

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jwzguy
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April 09, 2012, 09:26:10 PM
 #12

Really? Did I really deserve that? If there is anyone who has questions about the practices of Bitinstant or myself, then can ask the majority of this forum.

Your right, MtGox gives themselves discretion over who they deem suspicious. Maybe they have a reason for this specific case, we dont know, and they only need to share it with the account owner, not us.

The reason I posted in this thread (As you can see I specifically did not comment on the actual situation) was just to make sure the facts were pointed out that MtGox does tell you that information will be collected, no surpises

If you think MtGox enjoys doing this, or likes going out of their way to spend more money on internal audits and compliance just so they can legally operate, then I have nothing left to say.

Since I very clearly pointed out the problems that I had, and you tried to defend unethical behavior with a vague TOS - yes, you deserved it. Not from past problems anyone has had with your business, but with your attitude towards unethical behavior. If you don't understand why defending unethical behavior makes you look untrustworthy, I have nothing left to say on that matter.

However, since you apparently only read about 20% of posts (or pretend to in order to misrepresent the person you're arguing with) I will be happy to repost what I already said.

Quote
If their policy is to refuse service to anyone who doesn't want to send their passport to a company who leaked their customer database through incompetence, or spend the $$ to get notarized documentation required from various countries - they need to be upfront about it.

Instead it seems that they often wait until someone will take a financial loss from frozen funds if they don't comply to let them know exactly how they operate. I consider this extremely unethical.

Not to mention this whole "tainted coin" fiasco, and their practice of sending people into a frenzied panic thinking their account was hacked when they can't log in, without even the courtesy of an email notification to let them know what's going on.

Their TOS do not define what they regard as suspicious. Many customers, having been misled by this statement to believe that because they were NOT doing anything illicit, that they would be allowed to trade without trusting MtGox with that information, have been surprised and upset.


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Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem


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April 09, 2012, 09:31:05 PM
 #13

Really? Did I really deserve that? If there is anyone who has questions about the practices of Bitinstant or myself, then can ask the majority of this forum.

Your right, MtGox gives themselves discretion over who they deem suspicious. Maybe they have a reason for this specific case, we dont know, and they only need to share it with the account owner, not us.

The reason I posted in this thread (As you can see I specifically did not comment on the actual situation) was just to make sure the facts were pointed out that MtGox does tell you that information will be collected, no surpises

If you think MtGox enjoys doing this, or likes going out of their way to spend more money on internal audits and compliance just so they can legally operate, then I have nothing left to say.

Since I very clearly pointed out the problems that I had, and you tried to defend unethical behavior with a vague TOS - yes, you deserved it. Not from past problems anyone has had with your business, but with your attitude towards unethical behavior. If you don't understand why defending unethical behavior makes you look untrustworthy, I have nothing left to say on that matter.

However, since you apparently only read about 20% of posts (or pretend to in order to misrepresent the person you're arguing with) I will be happy to repost what I already said.

Quote
If their policy is to refuse service to anyone who doesn't want to send their passport to a company who leaked their customer database through incompetence, or spend the $$ to get notarized documentation required from various countries - they need to be upfront about it.

Instead it seems that they often wait until someone will take a financial loss from frozen funds if they don't comply to let them know exactly how they operate. I consider this extremely unethical.

Not to mention this whole "tainted coin" fiasco, and their practice of sending people into a frenzied panic thinking their account was hacked when they can't log in, without even the courtesy of an email notification to let them know what's going on.

Their TOS do not define what they regard as suspicious. Many customers, having been misled by this statement to believe that because they were NOT doing anything illicit, that they would be allowed to trade without trusting MtGox with that information, have been surprised and upset.


I guess we both have problems of only reading 20% of each others threads

The reason I posted in this thread (As you can see I specifically did not comment on the actual situation) was just to make sure the facts were pointed out that MtGox does tell you that information will be collected, no surpises

But anyways, let's not spam this guys thread with our bickering.

OP- I hope MtGox sees this and comments on your situation!

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April 09, 2012, 09:38:25 PM
 #14


I guess we both have problems of only reading 20% of each others threads

The reason I posted in this thread (As you can see I specifically did not comment on the actual situation) was just to make sure the facts were pointed out that MtGox does tell you that information will be collected, no surpises


Sure. Except, as I've posted twice now, they don't tell you that. If someone isn't doing anything illicit, what reason would they have to think their trading was suspicious? Instead, their TOS and the fact that they allow unverified accounts to trade at all leads customers to believe that it is a viable option.

I don't mind if you disagree with me. But you seem bent on disagreeing with something I'm clearly not saying and avoiding everything I actually have a problem with.

I also hope the OP gets MtGox's attention through bad press. It seems to be the only way that a lot of these people get their issues resolved, after being ignored by customer service, another disrespectful and unprofessional practice.


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April 09, 2012, 09:41:25 PM
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I guess we both have problems of only reading 20% of each others threads

The reason I posted in this thread (As you can see I specifically did not comment on the actual situation) was just to make sure the facts were pointed out that MtGox does tell you that information will be collected, no surpises


Sure. Except, as I've posted twice now, they don't tell you that. If someone isn't doing anything illicit, what reason would they have to think their trading was suspicious? Instead, their TOS and the fact that they allow unverified accounts to trade at all leads customers to believe that it is a viable option.

I don't mind if you disagree with me. But you seem bent on disagreeing with something I'm clearly not saying and avoiding everything I actually have a problem with.

I also hope the OP gets MtGox's attention through bad press. It seems to be the only way that a lot of these people get their issues resolved, after being ignored by customer service, another disrespectful and unprofessional practice.


Ah ok. I see where our disagreement lies.

I had written that MtGox tells you that they will collect information. Later on in the thread I also wrote "Your right, MtGox gives themselves discretion over who they deem suspicious. Maybe they have a reason for this specific case, we dont know, and they only need to share it with the account owner, not us. "

So, Im agreeing with you on that, and it seems that now we are in agreement.

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April 09, 2012, 09:50:04 PM
 #16

So, Im agreeing with you on that, and it seems that now we are in agreement.
I'm happy to hear that. In the end, customers just want honest and straightforward business practices, as well as timely and courteous customer service.

The fact that an exchange with 90% of the market-share is treating customers like I've seen over and over in this and many other threads, as well as on IRC, is scary as hell to me. I want bitcoin to succeed and therefor I have a vested interest in promoting business practices that build confidence, and criticizing the ones that destroy it.

So while it may seem that I'm bashing Mt.Gox in this and a few other recent threads, believe me, I'm just trying to wake them up. They do have a huge responsibility, as evoorhees pointed out, not just to be careful and protect themselves from liability, but also to make sure their customer base (both new and old) do not lose confidence in their services. I think we are heavily dependent on exchanges in this intermediate time between Bitcoin's infancy and the era of widespread acceptance. Until more exchanges are out there and can take some of that responsibility off their shoulders, their actions and policies can have a devastating effect on the perception of Bitcoin and its usefulness.

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April 09, 2012, 10:15:22 PM
 #17

@OP
relax, you are welcome also to sign up with bitcoin-central.net (whose bank is in SEPA zone)

However I would not fire missiles at any of the competitors because what we need is liquidity.

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April 09, 2012, 10:18:21 PM
 #18

The most ridiculous thing about MtGox that I've seen is the bank transfer costs. In the UK it seems Intersango is fine but not MtGox.

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April 09, 2012, 10:28:33 PM
 #19

MtGox -> Bitcoin's cancer. Stay away.

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April 09, 2012, 11:51:47 PM
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Quote
I'd advise you to think strategically, if we want Bitcoin to set its roots deep across the world, then it needs to grow and sustain itself for as long as possible before the dark statist forces attack it. The best way to ensure this, is for those companies which are more visible in Bitcoinland to "play it safe" and "follow the rules." It keeps the heat off, and allows Bitcoin to get stronger and stronger.

Very good points, sir

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