Charlie Shrem Pleads Guilty - What do you think?

[master-P]

Granted these are all very small "fish" and there are no real victims.

There are also no victims from what BitInstant/Charlie Shrem is alleged to have done.

The only people being victimized here are the ones having their anonymity taken away, and Charlie who is having his rights to liberty and property infringed.  The only criminals are the ones enforcing this immoral law.

I think the point is that this kind of activity creates a marketplace that makes it easier for potential terrorists to launder money. If people are openly breaking AML rules then a terrorist can see this and purchase a lot of bitcoin without anyone thinking twice and then potentially being able to use that bitcoin to pay for a potential terrorist attack.

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[aigeezer]

I think the point is that this kind of activity creates a marketplace that makes it easier for potential terrorists to launder money. If people are openly breaking AML rules then a terrorist can see this and purchase a lot of bitcoin without anyone thinking twice and then potentially being able to use that bitcoin to pay for a potential terrorist attack.

With that form of reasoning one can justify anything - anything at all.

For example: if people are allowed to get into their cars it makes it easier for them to drive to the location of potential terrorists and assist them in some way. Therefore people must not be allowed to get into their cars.

I believe that people are being manipulated through use of the T-word bogeyman into doing and tolerating some reprehensible societal changes.

Time to read "1984" again, lest we forget.

[Beliathon]

That's some bullshit, he didn't do anything wrong.

It's a good old fashioned witch hunt, plain and simple. Every criminal empire has it's scapegoats. Bitcoiners and drug users/sellers are the new scapegoats.

But it doesn't really matter. These fuckwit violent oligarchs have no legitimacy left. http://www.npr.org/2011/11/25/142705292/even-lawmakers-ask-does-anyone-like-congress

Even 9/11 couldn't save them from themselves:



Now it's just a waiting game for the inevitable power collapse and revolution.

[QuestionAuthority]

Granted these are all very small "fish" and there are no real victims.

There are also no victims from what BitInstant/Charlie Shrem is alleged to have done.

The only people being victimized here are the ones having their anonymity taken away, and Charlie who is having his rights to liberty and property infringed.  The only criminals are the ones enforcing this immoral law.

I think the point is that this kind of activity creates a marketplace that makes it easier for potential terrorists to launder money. If people are openly breaking AML rules then a terrorist can see this and purchase a lot of bitcoin without anyone thinking twice and then potentially being able to use that bitcoin to pay for a potential terrorist attack.

Are you serious or being flippant?

The scope of criminal proceeds is significant; the International Monetary Fund (IMF) estimated that some $500 billion (U.S.) is laundered worldwide each year.

I really don't think the terrorists (people that are pissed because the US is messing in their internal affairs) are really worried about using Bitcoin. I kind of wish terrorists would start using Bitcoin. Our market cap would increase from $6 billion to $500 billion overnight.

[Bitbirdhunt]

I must admit I'm disappointed with you Charlie.  If you are truly innocent then you must not plead guilty to *ANY* charges that you did not commit.   We cannot permit the Federal Mafia to simply threaten everyone into submission.  This sets a very bad precedent for the future and other Bitcoin users.

[aigeezer]

I must admit I'm disappointed with you Charlie.  If you are truly innocent then you must not plead guilty to *ANY* charges that you did not commit.   We cannot permit the Federal Mafia to simply threaten everyone into submission.  This sets a very bad precedent for the future and other Bitcoin users.

Everybody caves if the coercion is strong enough. Everyone. That's one reason a coercive regime is so repugnant.

"Do it to Julia".

[Beliathon]

I must admit I'm disappointed with you Charlie.  If you are truly innocent then you must not plead guilty to *ANY* charges that you did not commit.   We cannot permit the Federal Mafia to simply threaten everyone into submission.  This sets a very bad precedent for the future and other Bitcoin users.

Everybody caves if the coercion is strong enough. Everyone. That's one reason a coercive regime is so repugnant.

"Do it to Julia".

"In the first stage of political re-education, Winston Smith admits to and confesses to crimes he did and did not commit, implicating anyone and everyone, including Julia. In the second stage, O'Brien makes Winston understand that he is rotting away; by this time he is little more than skin and bones. Winston counters: "I have not betrayed Julia." O'Brien agrees Winston had not betrayed Julia because he "had not stopped loving her; his feelings toward her had remained the same." One night, in his cell, Winston awakens, screaming: "Julia! Julia! Julia, my love! Julia!" O'Brien rushes into the cell and sends him to Room 101, the most feared room in the Ministry of Love, where resides each prisoner's worst fear, which is forced upon him or her. In Room 101 is Acceptance, the final stage of the political re-education of Winston Smith, whose primal fear of rats is invoked when a wire cage holding hungry rats is fitted onto his face. As the rats are about to reach Winston's face, he shouts: "Do it to Julia!" thus betraying her and relinquishing his love for her."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Confession_and_betrayal

We don't have this type of torture in our modern society, but we do have Rape Dungeons that we euphemistically name "prisons", where an estimated 20% of male prisoners will face sexual assault - one of the worst fears of any man.

[itsAj]

If you had AML/KYC info for that guy that was selling them to SR then you are not guilty.

From what I understand he is pleading guilty to knowingly selling Bitcoin when he knew they would be used for Silk Road so it doesn't matter what info he had.  While it is well known Silk Road was used for some illegal activities not everything there was illegal.  BitInstant's part seems be relatively small compared to people actively involved in planning and conducting substantial illegal activities on a regular basis.  The documents show the activity he is pleading to was more of an aberration to get the guy out of his hair rather than some type of ongoing effort.  Anything else is irrelevant since that is what he is pleading to.  I think he will get probation.

Even probation is too much unless he knew what the coins would be used for. If I sell Bitcoins to someone from Localbitcoins and he said I work at Newegg but I deal drugs too. Would I be guilty? How am I supposed to know whether he's using them for a purchase at Newegg or to buy drugs. That seems like a lot of circumstantial bullshit to me. Or I don't know the whole story.

I believe he is admitting he knew the coins were going to be resold guy was not a licenses transmitter and that they were sold on Silk Road.  The docs shows he told the guy no a few times but gave in at one point.  That is different then someone who planned a business around illegal activities.

Charlie had posted, either on this thread somewhere above or on another similar thread that the amount of bitcoin sold on SR by bitinstant was ~$1 million worth. While it is alleged that Ross was running a drug empire that sold >$1 billion worth of drugs. Does anyone see the disconnect here?

I know the amounts are different because the $1 billion figure is based on higher exchange rates then what most of the transactions were likely carried out at, but the billion dollar figure is still there.

[dankkk]

Why is he only one being prosecuted?

There are still a lot of people selling on localbitcoin.

I think his case is being used to set an example and make us behave. Everyone trading cash and Bitcoins without the proper license on localbitcoins is most certainly in violation of the law. I wish DnT was in this thread. He studied up on it and could explain the ins and outs.

I think it is more about buying and selling drugs over the internet. They charged Ross with the harshest statutes that were designed for drug lords. They changed that guy in FL with money laundering when he sold bitcoin on LBC at outrageous prices (huge mark up) to a undercover cop that told him he was going to use the bitcoin to buy drugs and do other illegal things.   

You may be right. It might not have anything to do with Bitcoin. It may just be a warning to anyone trying to bypass drug laws using the deep web.

If they prosecute anyone whose identity they can figure out who does any significant amount of business on illegal drug sites then they will essentially spread FUD among people who do business on these sites and people will likely not want to buy/sell over TOR (either that or will be more careful about keeping their identity secret).

[johncarpe64]

I must admit I'm disappointed with you Charlie.  If you are truly innocent then you must not plead guilty to *ANY* charges that you did not commit.   We cannot permit the Federal Mafia to simply threaten everyone into submission.  This sets a very bad precedent for the future and other Bitcoin users.

Everybody caves if the coercion is strong enough. Everyone. That's one reason a coercive regime is so repugnant.

"Do it to Julia".

I agree with this concept. He was facing too much jail time to risk a potential guilty verdict. Hopefully he will be able to get "off" with not having to serve any jailtime with his guilty plea.

[moni3z]

There's no such thing as trials in the US anymore, almost 97+% of all prisoners in the states did plea bargaining to avoid a huge sentence thus never had a trial. Meanwhile in Germany they've abolished plea bargaining and actually have due process though the state keeps trying to bring it back.

[Walter Rothbard]

Granted these are all very small "fish" and there are no real victims.

There are also no victims from what BitInstant/Charlie Shrem is alleged to have done.

The only people being victimized here are the ones having their anonymity taken away, and Charlie who is having his rights to liberty and property infringed.  The only criminals are the ones enforcing this immoral law.

I think the point is that this kind of activity creates a marketplace that makes it easier for potential terrorists to launder money.

I believe in people being able to protect themselves from terrorists, including the Western terrorists who are currently killing people in Middle Eastern countries.

I don't believe in violating people's rights to try to prevent terrorism.

If people are openly breaking AML rules then a terrorist can see this

And if people stop killing brown people terrorists will have a lot less to be mad about.  If monetary freedom increases, people can protect themselves from being forced to fund imperialist wars, and the ability to wage those wars will decrease, as will the retaliations.

[Walter Rothbard]

That's some bullshit, he didn't do anything wrong.

It's a good old fashioned witch hunt, plain and simple. Every criminal empire has it's scapegoats. Bitcoiners and drug users/sellers are the new scapegoats.

Don't forget child pornographists.  Won't somebody think of the children!

[Walter Rothbard]

We cannot permit the Federal Mafia to simply threaten everyone into submission.

Why break with precedent?

BTW, you are perfectly free to sacrifice your freedom, family, etc., to fight the Federal mafia in whatever way you choose.

[leannemckim46]

There's no such thing as trials in the US anymore, almost 97+% of all prisoners in the states did plea bargaining to avoid a huge sentence thus never had a trial. Meanwhile in Germany they've abolished plea bargaining and actually have due process though the state keeps trying to bring it back.

It sometimes does make sense to attempt to reach a plea bargain, especially for "street" crimes, when you are actually guilty, there is well more then enough evidence to convict you and little/no evidence that would show your innocence. What has happened in the US is that prosecutors use very high potential sentences that a defendant would likely face as a bargaining chip.

[counter]

It sometimes does make sense to attempt to reach a plea bargain, especially for "street" crimes, when you are actually guilty, there is well more then enough evidence to convict you and little/no evidence that would show your innocence. What has happened in the US is that prosecutors use very high potential sentences that a defendant would likely face as a bargaining chip.
[/quote]

The justice system is not so much about justice these days.  Instead it's more about being on the right side of the law and using statistics as a means to sway judgments.  If prosecutors how so much control over the system then how can this be considered justice?   It has become a business for the police, cities, court systems and Governments.  The money as a get out of jail free card these days and is used to help fueling this backwards system we've got. 

[r0ach]

Let's say the shremster, in his view, thought he hadn't committed a crime and wanted to relocate to a different country to avoid prosecution.  Besides Somalia, what are his viable options here?

[QuestionAuthority]

Let's say the shremster, in his view, thought he hadn't committed a crime and wanted to relocate to a different country to avoid prosecution.  Besides Somalia, what are his viable options here?

The prospect of running and looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life is probably no better than jail time.

Eric Voorhees seems to think Panama is a good choice. I don't think they extradite for financial crimes.

[BBmmBB]

Charlie seems like a nice guy...but you must put into perspective the amount of substances pushed on that marketplace and the mandatory minimum sentences associated are equivalent to 1000s of years jail time!!    ~ the war on drugs ? hmmm

[Walter Rothbard]

It sometimes does make sense to attempt to reach a plea bargain, especially for "street" crimes, when you are actually guilty, there is well more then enough evidence to convict you and little/no evidence that would show your innocence. What has happened in the US is that prosecutors use very high potential sentences that a defendant would likely face as a bargaining chip.

The justice system is not so much about justice these days.  Instead it's more about being on the right side of the law and using statistics as a means to sway judgments.  If prosecutors how so much control over the system then how can this be considered justice?   It has become a business for the police, cities, court systems and Governments.  The money as a get out of jail free card these days and is used to help fueling this backwards system we've got. 


[/quote]

I support everybody's right to contract with a competing service provider for justice services.