Please raise minimum wage to $15 click here for your support!

[Interized]

...so that these scum bags can all be replaced by automated machines and techies who deserve that pay...

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[Chef Ramsay]

The minimum wage here in Michigan just got raised from $7.40 to $8.15 as of Sept 1 and it's supposed to keep on going to like $9.10 (I think) over the next few years. I think it was a republican ploy to keep the democrats from running on a higher hike in the mw in the next election. 

[Bonam]

Well, they're doing it in Seattle. If this spurs increased adoption of automated/robotic cashiers, restaurant staff, food preparation systems, etc, that'd be awesome.

[pawel7777]

Well, they're doing it in Seattle. If this spurs increased adoption of automated/robotic cashiers, restaurant staff, food preparation systems, etc, that'd be awesome.

It'll be awesome until hoards of unemployed start raiding the houses of employed ones, to get their goods. If the system is to work properly, all the low skilled (majority of population?) must have some opportunities for employment. Driving MW too high is definitely not a way to go.

[rtt]

...so that these scum bags can all be replaced by automated machines and techies who deserve that pay...

You are just a damn cheapskate.

Raise it to $1000 !!!

[Bonam]

Driving MW too high is definitely not a way to go.

I agree. Sadly, those who work MW jobs generally do not. These people should be looking for jobs above minimum wage, rather than asking for the minimum wage to be raised. The only way to illustrate the point is to raise MW far too high in a very short time and make people see for themselves what happens.

[Lethn]

They're planning on raising the minimum wage now here in the UK, they're re-calculating for hyperinflation.

[Gronthaing]

But isn't raising the minimum wage along with productivity increases sustainable? Why would that mean companies immediately start automating, when more people have more money to spend on their goods? Raising it to $1000 is unrealistic, but not $10 - $15.

[pawel7777]

Driving MW too high is definitely not a way to go.

I agree. Sadly, those who work MW jobs generally do not. These people should be looking for jobs above minimum wage, rather than asking for the minimum wage to be raised. The only way to illustrate the point is to raise MW far too high in a very short time and make people see for themselves what happens.

LOL causing crash in economy, creating huge unemployment just to be able to say "We told you so!" is a bit extreme, and probably it will only have a very short-term educational effect.

They're planning on raising the minimum wage now here in the UK, they're re-calculating for hyperinflation.

They do increase it every year. Don't they?

[Bonam]

But isn't raising the minimum wage along with productivity increases sustainable? Why would that mean companies immediately start automating, when more people have more money to spend on their goods? Raising it to $1000 is unrealistic, but not $10 - $15.

Whose productivity increases? Productivity index data is available for the whole economy or for big sectors of industry, but it does not mean that the productivity of a small retail store or restaurant has increased by the same factor.

[Bonam]

LOL causing crash in economy, creating huge unemployment just to be able to say "We told you so!" is a bit extreme, and probably it will only have a very short-term educational effect.

Just one city that actually did it. We'll see the effects! Actually Seattle may be able to sustain it with the huge concentration of Amazon, Boeing, Microsoft, etc employees with lots of disposable income to spend on more expensive restaurant bills, more expensive groceries, etc.

[Brewins]

Minimum wage should be extinct.

It only makes harder for people to enter the market, and kills jobs.

Also contributes with the inflation and stuff.

[Lethn]

Driving MW too high is definitely not a way to go.

I agree. Sadly, those who work MW jobs generally do not. These people should be looking for jobs above minimum wage, rather than asking for the minimum wage to be raised. The only way to illustrate the point is to raise MW far too high in a very short time and make people see for themselves what happens.

LOL causing crash in economy, creating huge unemployment just to be able to say "We told you so!" is a bit extreme, and probably it will only have a very short-term educational effect.

They're planning on raising the minimum wage now here in the UK, they're re-calculating for hyperinflation.

They do increase it every year. Don't they?

Going to have to double check that but if they do increase it every year then they probably are adjusting peoples wages for the inflation.

[pawel7777]

They do increase it every year. Don't they?

Going to have to double check that but if they do increase it every year then they probably are adjusting peoples wages for the inflation.

Yup, looks like it. All the previous changes were at ~2%. The next one, from Oct 2014 is 3%, so just slightly higher.

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

[Lethn]

Can someone prove me wrong on something major I've said about history and economics? Please? I hate being right about this sort of thing

[Mike Christ]

But isn't raising the minimum wage along with productivity increases sustainable? Why would that mean companies immediately start automating, when more people have more money to spend on their goods? Raising it to $1000 is unrealistic, but not $10 - $15.

No; if you are worth $15 dollars an hour, you will already be paid $15 an hour.  What if you're not worth $15 an hour and minimum wage is raised so that you have to take at least that much?  In other words, what if you cost a company more than you produce?  You don't get a pay increase, you get fired.  It has nothing to do with productivity, it has to do with efficiency.

Let's say a machine costs $12 an hour to produce $20 worth of goods or service an hour.  20 - 12 = $8 profit/hr.

Let's say a person is paid $10 an hour to produce $20 worth of goods or service an hour.  20 - 10 = $10 profit/hr.

The better option is the person.

Let's say the person has to work for $15 minimum an hour to produce $20 worth of goods or service an hour.  20 - 15 = $5 profit/hr.

The machine is the better option, but the person is still doable depending on the job.

However, consider this:

A machine costs $20 an hour to produce $10 worth of goods or service.  10 - 20 = $10 deficit/hr.

A person has to work for $15 minimum an hour to produce $10 worth of goods or service.  10 - 15 = $5 deficit/hr.

Clearly the better option, between the two, is the person; however, this doesn't mean the person will have a job, it means he will cost the company $5 an hour to work there.  Nobody can work that job anymore, because it's not profitable.  The job goes away, or gets consolidated into another job at that company, increasing the work load of the people still there and keeping the guy who doesn't have work unemployed.

In other words, a $15 minimum wage means anyone worth <$15 an hour now makes $0 an hour.  Their lives now must be paid by the people who do make more than $15 minimum wage, whether directly e.g. friends or parents, or indirectly i.e. welfare.  When is this ever sustainable?

[djnocide]

raise minimum wage and everything else will cost more. Everything is linked together (salary being the lowest of all). So if you raise the salary, you can be sure that everything else will rise more than what you gain from the minimum wage rise.

And yes if you raise the minimum wage too much they will be replaced by automated machines.

[shawshankinmate37927]

Forget the minimum wage. There's no need for politics. Just cut out the middle men and give everyone a FRN printer so we can each just print out the money that we feel we are entitled to for ourselves.

[tinof]

Minimum wage should be extinct.

It only makes harder for people to enter the market, and kills jobs.

Also contributes with the inflation and stuff.

Right. All companies will just outsource their operation elsewhere.

Many 3rd world countries have build up infrastructure and train up their workforce to service international companies and customers. And they work for peanut comparing to US wages.

[bryant.coleman]

This is sort of crazy. The global economy is still recovering from the 2008/09 recession and the unions are pushing for raising the minimum wage to astronomical levels. The only thing which is going to happen out of this is that more and more firms will shut down, raising the unemployment rate to new heights. The agriculture sector will be the most severely affected among all.

[Lethn]

Also contributes with the inflation and stuff.

No it doesn't, increasing the money supply contributes to inflation.

[RoadTrain]

Also contributes with the inflation and stuff.

No it doesn't, increasing the money supply contributes to inflation.

Not necessarily.

[bryant.coleman]

No it doesn't, increasing the money supply contributes to inflation.

IMO, it will contribute to inflation. If employers are forced to raise the wages of their employees, then the basic prices of various items will go up, resulting in a big spike in inflation. For example, constructing a home can get more expensive, processed cheese can get more expensive... every single item which needs manual labor to process will get more expensive.

[Lethn]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inflation

Economics. a persistent, substantial rise in the general level of prices related to an increase in the volume of money and resulting in the loss of value of currency (opposed to deflation).

Raising the minimum wage by itself does not automatically mean that the currency is being inflated, it's pretty much a form of price fixing, the product in question is someone's labour and the government is deciding the price of that, it isn't a result of inflation, now if we were to examine wages as a whole, then that would be an indicator of inflation because it's very generalised much like how you can look at the price of basic food and so on.

[RoadTrain]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inflation

Economics. a persistent, substantial rise in the general level of prices related to an increase in the volume of money and resulting in the loss of value of currency (opposed to deflation).

Raising the minimum wage by itself does not automatically mean that the currency is being inflated, it's pretty much a form of price fixing, the product in question is someone's labour and the government is deciding the price of that, it isn't a result of inflation, now if we were to examine wages as a whole, then that would be an indicator of inflation because it's very generalised much like how you can look at the price of basic food and so on.

You take one interpretation (monetarist) of the inflation phenomenon as if it's the only one that's proved right.
But there a more:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation#Causes

[Wilikon]

...so that these scum bags can all be replaced by automated machines and techies who deserve that pay...

 

[Wilikon]

Well, they're doing it in Seattle. If this spurs increased adoption of automated/robotic cashiers, restaurant staff, food preparation systems, etc, that'd be awesome.

It'll be awesome until hoards of unemployed start raiding the houses of employed ones, to get their goods. If the system is to work properly, all the low skilled (majority of population?) must have some opportunities for employment. Driving MW too high is definitely not a way to go.

For the hoard of raiders there is a simple solution...

[itsAj]

No it doesn't, increasing the money supply contributes to inflation.

IMO, it will contribute to inflation. If employers are forced to raise the wages of their employees, then the basic prices of various items will go up, resulting in a big spike in inflation. For example, constructing a home can get more expensive, processed cheese can get more expensive... every single item which needs manual labor to process will get more expensive.

This is exactly why we should not raise the minimum wage. It will cause the prices of everything to go up for everyone, not just the lazy and unskilled. It will cause less unskilled jobs to be available as businesses will have more incentives to invest in automation. It will force businesses to raise prices because they are now paying their workers more.

EDIT: $15 per hour is a ridiculous amount of money to ask for. This is not something that a fast food worker is worth. This is something that someone who has actual skills with actual experience is worth paying. 

[shawshankinmate37927]

You take one interpretation (monetarist) of the inflation phenomenon as if it's the only one that's proved right.
But there a more:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation#Causes

Definitions shouldn't be a matter of opinion or interpretation, they should be a matter of agreement.  Whether inflation is the cause of rising prices or not can be debated, but debating the definition of the word "inflation" is just an attempt to distract. It's a technique used by those that are behind and profit from the fiat monetary scam.

[Hippie Tech]

How about we raise the minimum wage for the third world first.

You'll be amazed at what can happen when 95% of the world's workforce has money to spend.

[itsAj]

How about we raise the minimum wage for the third world first.

You'll be amazed at what can happen when 95% of the world's workforce has money to spend.

I think this would likely cause inflation, more inflation then raising the wages of the unskilled. In order for third world countries to increase their national income they need to produce exports that are in demand throughout the rest of the world. (also the US does not dictate the wage levels of any country but the US).

[Tusk]

By raising the minimum wage you increase automation and reduce human work force, this creates greater unemployment and further social grant dependency and plays to a more socialist government that diverts resources to support the unemployed making smaller businesses less sustainable. A vicious spiral to totalitarian control. Not always the best idea

[Possum577]

Techies get paid 4 times that rate

[DrG]

LOL causing crash in economy, creating huge unemployment just to be able to say "We told you so!" is a bit extreme, and probably it will only have a very short-term educational effect.

Just one city that actually did it. We'll see the effects! Actually Seattle may be able to sustain it with the huge concentration of Amazon, Boeing, Microsoft, etc employees with lots of disposable income to spend on more expensive restaurant bills, more expensive groceries, etc.

2 of those are transplants. Boeing more or less moved all of Southern California aerospace (MD & Boeing) to Everett and thanks to the crazy labor contracts had to start looking elsewhere in the last 5 years.  It's only a matter of time before more of those companies set up satellites.  How much has MSFT moved out to Hyderabad.  Even Expedia is there in Seattle and they're moving 1/3 out of Seattle soon.

[shawshankinmate37927]

like i said on other topic if we took wal mart profit and gave it to the workers instead of shareholders who had nothing to do with creating that wealth everyone would get a 50% pay increase, this is maybe not the case for some small businesses

of course greedy libertarian no taxes for anything except police and military type on bitcoin forum don't like it because they are the wal mart shareholder and enjoy getting that bonus income from someone elses labour

It's easy to put other people's money where your mouth is.  Start your own company so you can put your money where your mouth is and then let us know how that works out for you.  When you employ as many people as Wal-mart does and you share all of the profits with your employees, then I'll be willing to listen to what you have to say.

[Hippie Tech]

How about we raise the minimum wage for the third world first.

You'll be amazed at what can happen when 95% of the world's workforce has money to spend.

I think this would likely cause inflation, more inflation then raising the wages of the unskilled. In order for third world countries to increase their national income they need to produce exports that are in demand throughout the rest of the world. (also the US does not dictate the wage levels of any country but the US).

They are producing exports that are in high demand and its your corrupt business/politcal leaders who are responsible for establishing and maintaining the status quo.

edit

The average consumer/ worker/slave is just as compliant with this form of barbarism.

[maurya78]

Industrial automation is going to wipe out the unions in time anyway
No human workers, no employment law provisions

[awesome31312]

I'm in favor of a $0 minimum wage.

Switzerland is doing just fine with one.

Industrial automation is going to wipe out the unions in time anyway
No human workers, no employment law provisions

Wasn't Karl Marx the guy who predicted that?

[galbros]

...so that these scum bags can all be replaced by automated machines and techies who deserve that pay...

Good one!  While very modest hikes to the minimum wage can easily be absorbed or offset in other ways if you increase the cost of something you get less of it. 

[Gronthaing]

like i said on other topic if we took wal mart profit and gave it to the workers instead of shareholders who had nothing to do with creating that wealth everyone would get a 50% pay increase, this is maybe not the case for some small businesses

of course greedy libertarian no taxes for anything except police and military type on bitcoin forum don't like it because they are the wal mart shareholder and enjoy getting that bonus income from someone elses labour

It's easy to put other people's money where your mouth is.  Start your own company so you can put your money where your mouth is and then let us know how that works out for you.  When you employ as many people as Wal-mart does and you share all of the profits with your employees, then I'll be willing to listen to what you have to say.

I think cooperatives might be getting there. See Mondragon for example. Payments are far more equal than what you see in normal companies, which is a good start.