It's about time to turn off PoW mining

[zorke]

"Your own Ft. Knox" is an a bit far fetched analogy. It is marketing talk. This should not be confused with what makes it work and what the functional output is. Functionally it can be best described as a prediction market which results in a crypto currency like token that is pegged to a certain real world asset

yes I know, it is marketing talk that is the point. It is sold as one thing but it is another.  I know that it has "pegs" and it will fail as soon as the base price of bitsharesX crashes atm it is only about 85% I guess that is a stable peg.

85% ?? Where did you get that number from?

http://www.cryptocoincharts.info/pair/bitusd/usd/bter/alltime

If you use the feature on the above website to hide the price spikes sufficiently, which are caused by low market depth and liquidity on BTER, you will see bitUSD has averaged 99.5% of USD's value. Furthermore, the centralized exchanges won't track the price as accurately as the decentralized market in BTSX, as most of the market depth and liquidity is on the decentralized exchange in BTSX.

However, this has nothing to do with PoW, PoS, or DPOS.

If the price spikes because of the lack of liquidity then anyone wanting to buy or sell any significant amount will experience slippage (the same with people who are buying selling when the above is happening.

I disagree with a decentralized market being more efficient then a centralized one. Just look at the currency exchange subforum, if you wish to buy/sell immediately then you would need to give up at least 5% (often times more) in favor of your counter-party, and even this doe not allow people to sell "immediately" trade.

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[cbeast]

Finally, what's the correct level of security that Bitcoin needs?  A 51% attack would be detrimental, but it wouldn't mean the end of Bitcoin.  There are ways to counter and mitigate it, and the worst that would happen is a suspension of transactions until the attack is resolved.  So, what's to say that $10M of attack prevention isn't enough?  Currently it would cost somewhere in the hundreds of millions, but is that really necessary?  I'd be interested to see some analysis in that regard.

A 51% attack is not just a mining pool getting 51%.  If some entity got 51% and mined secretly all past transactions could be wiped out from the block they started mining.  It could mean weeks or months of transactions could be wiped out.  If someone wiped out the last 6 months of Bitcoin transactions I think that would kill it.  The cost analysis that I have seen calculated a price based on buying equipment from vendors.  A 51% attack like this would mean the entity would make their own hardware.  If they had control of places that manufacture chips that would make a big difference with the cost.  I don't think it would happen but it is not completely out of the question.

Pulling off a 51% attack and also having the longest chain still won't let you wipe out past transactions. They will still live in other mining chains until they are reconfirmed. You can only really be assured to double spend your own transactions this way. If you have transactions big enough to justify the cost of such an attack, someone will probably notice.

[delulo]

In future, bitcoin will become a by-product of heating devices, eliminate the electricity waste concern

So mining will alternate between north and south hemisphere.

Near the pole. But warm water are always needed 24/7 regardless of location

That would be funny!

I'd have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale

[kokojie]

reposting a discussion from elsewhere, which I think is also relevant to this thread's discussion.

How many zero-day vulnerabilities and network nodes do you think you can find with $500 million?

With PoW nodes, they have no reason to be storing a "hot wallet". With PoS nodes, every node has a "hot wallet" in order to prove "stake".

The implication is that a determined attacker may be able to control more than 50% of the "stake" for a lot less than $500Million. As a bonus, they would be using less than 1MW of power while attacking the network (assuming thousands of machines to get good connectivity/node isolation).

Hot wallet requirement is depend on the actual implementation, Peercoin needs hot wallets, Bitshares and NxT do not. It's incorrect to say PoS needs to run hot wallets.

Also I can't understand the logic of spending money = successfully hacking thousands of machines (especially if they are PoS hot wallets, which the owner probably took measures to properly secure their private computer, if these private computers are so easily hacked, then all web servers are doomed). I can think of several ways to make my hot wallet on my private computer unhackable from the outside. Usually people lose their hot wallet because they got phished, their dropbox backup got hacked, or installed some malware/keylogger. A LOT more Bitcoin hot wallets has been hacked, compared to Peercoin PoS miner hot wallet, I think so far ZERO peercoin PoS miner hotwallet has been hacked, the reality doesn't agree with your theory.

Ok, let's assume in the unlikely event a hacker does obtain 51% of all currency available, then the chain can still just rollback the attacker address. If someone hacked 51% of all Bitcoin, you can be pretty sure Bitcoin is rolling back the attacker's address too, otherwise the eco-system will fail immediately. So the only way to attack a PoS network, is to buy the stake legitimately. Then as soon as you do start to attack the PoS network, the community will find out and act upon the aggression, your address will be getting blocked immediately, and lose all your stake that you spent an astronomical amount of money to buy. You can be pretty sure that any potential attacker would know this, therefore they won't even attempt this attack. This is the reason ZERO PoS network has been 51% attacked so far. It's basically a nuke in the PoS network's arsenal, it can be used, so the attacker in fear of the nuke, won't even attempt the attack, which end up making the nuke never used. But it's good to know it's there.

But if an attacker obtain 51% mining power in a PoW network, there's nearly nothing you could do, other than go out and out-spend the attacker by buying more hardware and spending more on electricity. I'm sure the hardware vendor and electricity companies would love to see this happen. If no one step up and out-spend the attacker, the attacker with their vast amount of hardware can PERMANENTLY disable the Bitcoin PoW network, there's nothing you could do to stop them, other than... converting Bitcoin to PoS .

[inBitweTrust]

But if an attacker obtain 51% mining power in a PoW network, there's nearly nothing you could do, other than go out and out-spend the attacker by buying more hardware and spending more on electricity. I'm sure the hardware vendor and electricity companies would love to see this happen. If no one step up and out-spend the attacker, the attacker with their vast amount of hardware can PERMANENTLY disable the Bitcoin PoW network, there's nothing you could do to stop them, other than... converting Bitcoin to PoS .

This is false, I can come up with two solutions quickly without even trying:

There are solutions to modify the protocol to defend against Bitcoin after a 51% attack just as their are ways to mitigate DDOS attacks. One solution would be to temporarily identify the IP ranges where the attack is coming from and block those ranges, followed up by using anonymous nameIDs associated with miners that have reputation rates where the network could purge hash values from attacking miners.

Another solution is to create a PoW/PoS hybrid.

It seems your judgment is clouded as you aren't critically analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of PoS vs PoW and are merely trying to market Nxt/BTSX.

If this isn't the case than can you name several security flaws within Nxt/BTSX that Bitcoin doesn't have or do you claim that PoW offers no security benefits above PoS?

[kokojie]

But if an attacker obtain 51% mining power in a PoW network, there's nearly nothing you could do, other than go out and out-spend the attacker by buying more hardware and spending more on electricity. I'm sure the hardware vendor and electricity companies would love to see this happen. If no one step up and out-spend the attacker, the attacker with their vast amount of hardware can PERMANENTLY disable the Bitcoin PoW network, there's nothing you could do to stop them, other than... converting Bitcoin to PoS .

This is false, I can come up with two solutions quickly without even trying:

There are solutions to modify the protocol to defend against Bitcoin after a 51% attack just as their are ways to mitigate DDOS attacks. One solution would be to temporarily identify the IP ranges where the attack is coming from and block those ranges, followed up by using anonymous nameIDs associated with miners that have reputation rates where the network could purge hash values from attacking miners.

Another solution is to create a PoW/PoS hybrid.

It seems your judgment is clouded as you aren't critically analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of PoS vs PoW and are merely trying to market Nxt/BTSX.

If this isn't the case than can you name several security flaws within Nxt/BTSX that Bitcoin doesn't have or do you claim that PoW offers no security benefits above PoS?

Your 1st solution doesn't work, it's trivial to change IP.

Your 2nd solution is what I already suggested at the end: "converting bitcoin to PoS".  A PoW/PoS hybrid is still means converting at least part of the network to PoS.

I do think PoW has no security benefit over PoS, otherwise why would I be calling for an end to PoW, and favoring PoS?

I'm not marketing NxT or BTSX, actually I'm one of the biggest NxT hater there is, I have already shown you my opinion against NxT in previous threads. I own 0 NxT, and a small amount of BTSX. My Bitcoin stake is 100X more than my BTSX stake. I would not mention NxT or BTSX if I didn't have to, but it's hard to discuss PoS without mentioning these existing PoS networks.

[smalltimer]

since when is it allowed to pump altcoins in this section?
I would have to pump some too!  


ahhh, i see. You need to be on the high horse to do that shit. lol. You are all fuckin incoherent.

[kokojie]

since when is it allowed to pump altcoins in this section?
I would have to pump some too! 

Have you tried to discuss PoS without mentioning any altcoin?

[inBitweTrust]

Your 1st solution doesn't work, it's trivial to change IP.

I said it would temporarily mitigate an attack while the protocol was adjusted where no IP is needed, WOT can be used.

I do think PoW has no security benefit over PoS, otherwise why would I be calling for an end to PoW, and favoring PoS?

Thank you for your honesty, but it clearly shows that you don't understand how PoW is different:

 

Is there a rebuttal from the PoS crowd to this:
  https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

... other than "sure, the original PoS ideas were flawed, but the latest MegaUberPoS system gets it right and nobody has figured out exactly how to break it!"

I suppose all the developers that work with PoW are equally as misguided as me, right?

[smalltimer]

since when is it allowed to pump altcoins in this section?
I would have to pump some too!  

Have you tried to discuss PoS without mentioning any altcoin?

pos isn't ready yet. Everyone knows that. I have been holding numerous poscoins and regretted every single one of them. They are all one big clusterfuck. So this thread is just a pump-thread for a alpha- or at best beta-product.
Can't replace pow at this point in time. Please try again in altcoins section to sell your pumpcoin with the security issues, loopholes and forked up chain.

*shill thread

[kokojie]

Your 1st solution doesn't work, it's trivial to change IP.

I said it would temporarily mitigate an attack while the protocol was adjusted where no IP is needed, WOT can be used.

I do think PoW has no security benefit over PoS, otherwise why would I be calling for an end to PoW, and favoring PoS?

Thank you for your honesty, but it clearly shows that you don't understand how PoW is different:

 

Is there a rebuttal from the PoS crowd to this:
  https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

... other than "sure, the original PoS ideas were flawed, but the latest MegaUberPoS system gets it right and nobody has figured out exactly how to break it!"

I suppose all the developers that work with PoW are equally as misguided as me, right?

Unless your WOT mining is already implemented, your temporary solution will buy you 1 hour at best, if the attacker was already prepared to change IP, it won't even take 1 hour, just a few seconds. Who's going to wait months for Bitcoin to implement WOT mining while the entire network is being disabled?

A PoW developer is naturally entrenched in the PoW mindset, I'm not surprised at all. They will think PoW is superior, until the day Bitcoin PoW fails, and reality shows them it's not. As a stake holder in Bitcoin, I can't AFFORD to wait until that day happens, action must be taken before that day happens.

[smalltimer]

everyone can effectively come up with a 'problem' bitcoin has and offer his pumpcoin to solve that problem. So why not merge alt-section with this one?


I am serious. If this forum is managed so incoherently i am going to pump my coins now with the same excuse around here to lure in some noobs. lulz. Hilarious.

[kokojie]

since when is it allowed to pump altcoins in this section?
I would have to pump some too!  

Have you tried to discuss PoS without mentioning any altcoin?

pos isn't ready yet. Everyone knows that. I have been holding numerous poscoins and regretted every single one of them. They are all one big clusterfuck. So this thread is just a pump-thread for a alpha- or at best beta-product.
Can't replace pow at this point in time. Please try again in altcoins section to sell your pumpcoin with the security issues, loopholes and forked up chain.

*shill thread

What security issues or loop holes? please be specific

[kokojie]

everyone can effectively come up with a 'problem' bitcoin has and offer his pumpcoin to solve that problem. So why not merge alt-section with this one?


I am serious. If this forum is managed so incoherently i am going to pump my coins now with the same excuse around here to lure in some noobs. lulz. Hilarious.

I think you have a reading comprehension problem. I'm suggesting to convert Bitcoin itself to PoS. I wasn't aware PoS was an altcoin. Your argument is laughable.

[smalltimer]

since when is it allowed to pump altcoins in this section?
I would have to pump some too!  

Have you tried to discuss PoS without mentioning any altcoin?

pos isn't ready yet. Everyone knows that. I have been holding numerous poscoins and regretted every single one of them. They are all one big clusterfuck. So this thread is just a pump-thread for a alpha- or at best beta-product.
Can't replace pow at this point in time. Please try again in altcoins section to sell your pumpcoin with the security issues, loopholes and forked up chain.

*shill thread

What security issues or loop holes? please be specific

go use those coins.
90% of poscoins are forked up with no end. Many defaulted.
No hashrate, numerous exploits. Just google it or search the forum. I am not going to discuss the scam of Bitshares X in depth here.

[kokojie]

since when is it allowed to pump altcoins in this section?
I would have to pump some too!  

Have you tried to discuss PoS without mentioning any altcoin?

pos isn't ready yet. Everyone knows that. I have been holding numerous poscoins and regretted every single one of them. They are all one big clusterfuck. So this thread is just a pump-thread for a alpha- or at best beta-product.
Can't replace pow at this point in time. Please try again in altcoins section to sell your pumpcoin with the security issues, loopholes and forked up chain.

*shill thread

What security issues or loop holes? please be specific

go use those coins.
90% of poscoins are forked up with no end. Many defaulted.
No hashrate, numerous exploits. Just google it or search the forum. I am not going to discuss the scam of Bitshares X in depth here.

I am indeed a user of BTSX, it's working fine for me. I wasn't aware it needed any "hashrate" to function, since it's a pure PoS network. Still you haven't named ANY specific security problem or loophole, I'm still waiting.

[smalltimer]

i can 51% the network after having held a significant amount of the coins with a cost of zero to name just one of many problems. That shit is for the trashcan. It couldn't be more blatant how you pump your shitcoin... and on top of it in the wrong section.
Jeeez. I am done here.

[smalltimer]

you have to post here under the guise of wanting to discuss bitcoin because in altcoins you would be eaten alive. Go on, tell me more about how nice btsx are.

[kokojie]

i can 51% the network after having held a significant amount of the coins with a cost of zero to name just one of many problems. That shit is for the trashcan. It couldn't be more blatant how you pump your shitcoin... and on top of it in the wrong section.
Jeeez. I am done here.

I have already addressed this issue in post #409.

Your first obstacle is obtaining 51%, your second obstacle is you will lose your 51% immediately after you try to attack. No one would be dumb enough to even attempt this, and this why this attack have never happened in reality in a PoS network. Though 51% attack has been repeatedly successfully done on PoW altcoins, how do you explain that?

[kokojie]

you have to post here under the guise of wanting to discuss bitcoin because in altcoins you would be eaten alive. Go on, tell me more about how nice btsx are.

Why would I go into altcoin section if I want to discuss converting Bitcoin to PoS? you have a funny way of keep mentioning altcoins though. I'm wondering if you are actually trying to pump the altcoin section now.