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Author Topic: so which pool has the least transaction fees?  (Read 3236 times)
Meni Rosenfeld
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May 09, 2011, 07:09:16 PM
 #21

Bigger pools have less variance. Smaller pools have more variance.
So you're using the deepbit pay per share option?
Why would I do that? The variance of the other methods doesn't justify switching to PPS with 7% lower expectation.

And I don't do deepbit proportional either because it's vulnerable to pool-hopping.

Why would the people in the largest pool receive the most?  The pool overall receives more bitcoins, yes, but there are more people to split the bitcoins amongst.  You would receive the SAME amount of bitcoins for your MH/s regardless of whether you were in a small pool or a large one.  And THAT is why we don't all join one big huge pool, not because of fear of it creating a monopoly.  We just join whatever pool provides the greatest benefit, which right now, is calculated mostly by looking at the fee structures.
That's only half right. If they all have the same fees etc. they will have the same expectation for the payout. But they will have different variances (bigger pools have less variance). For most people, variance is bad, this is why they join a pool in the first place.

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nster
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May 09, 2011, 07:50:06 PM
 #22

Bigger pools have less variance. Smaller pools have more variance.
So you're using the deepbit pay per share option?
Why would I do that? The variance of the other methods doesn't justify switching to PPS with 7% lower expectation.

And I don't do deepbit proportional either because it's vulnerable to pool-hopping.

Why would the people in the largest pool receive the most?  The pool overall receives more bitcoins, yes, but there are more people to split the bitcoins amongst.  You would receive the SAME amount of bitcoins for your MH/s regardless of whether you were in a small pool or a large one.  And THAT is why we don't all join one big huge pool, not because of fear of it creating a monopoly.  We just join whatever pool provides the greatest benefit, which right now, is calculated mostly by looking at the fee structures.
That's only half right. If they all have the same fees etc. they will have the same expectation for the payout. But they will have different variances (bigger pools have less variance). For most people, variance is bad, this is why they join a pool in the first place.

pool-hoping theory is a whole new thing... there is really no TANGIBLE proof. In the real world, you have to test it, in theory it loks good, but idk if it does in practice

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May 09, 2011, 08:03:43 PM
 #23

And I don't do deepbit proportional either because it's vulnerable to pool-hopping.
pool-hoping theory is a whole new thing... there is really no TANGIBLE proof. In the real world, you have to test it, in theory it loks good, but idk if it does in practice
With deepbit becoming so large, pool-hopping is easier than ever. If a new block is found it's probably deepbit's. It's only a matter of time until someone implements it, if they haven't already.

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May 09, 2011, 09:05:01 PM
 #24

And I don't do deepbit proportional either because it's vulnerable to pool-hopping.
pool-hoping theory is a whole new thing... there is really no TANGIBLE proof. In the real world, you have to test it, in theory it loks good, but idk if it does in practice
With deepbit becoming so large, pool-hopping is easier than ever. If a new block is found it's probably deepbit's. It's only a matter of time until someone implements it, if they haven't already.

but noone did tests yet it seems, such lazy ppl we are

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May 09, 2011, 09:17:40 PM
 #25

ever since deepbit rose to 550 g/hash, ive been getting a little less coins due to the fact that my rig isnt all that crazy.
is there another pool that has little to no fees and lets me cash out instantly like deepbit does?
eligus feels strange since you dont make an account there and every thing is paid instantly, i like to see how much i make in a day ya know?

My new pool opened up to the public is 0% fees on blocks.  The pool cuts rewards off at the thousandths of a bitcoin (0.00X) and keeps the remaining ten-thousandths.  It's very minor, so I encourage users to set a donation percentage for the pool to keep, but it isn't required.

Payouts can be instant like deepbit if you set your donation percentage to 2.5% before the block is found.  I offer you the stats you see on slush's pool (Confirmed, Unconfirmed, Estimated) for rewards, detailed worker stats (round totals and complete totals for shares, stales, & found blocks).  Graphing will likely be added this weekend to show you your daily generation over the course of a month.

Also working on a Hall of Fame page where you can see how you rank in terms of hashing speed in the current round and share submitted total.  The blocks found hall of fame is already up and running, but I'm the only one there since it's been in test mode for a week Smiley.

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May 09, 2011, 09:53:58 PM
 #26

technically, deepbit should have the least variance, which is better no? still making deepbit look good Cheesy

these new pools are just too small for me to join atm... All the things deepbit offers is well worth the 3% for now...

The newest pools have not showed me they are trustworthy enough yet. I made the mistake of trusting bitcoinpool once, and my password may have been compromised because they stupidly stored it as plain text. I had to change the password of every account associated with that password ( I only using 5~6 different passwords, but I have many account in different things)

Every connection you make to deepbit sends your password in plaintext over the open internet.  Anyone with access to the network between you and deepbit could sniff it.  Anyone who has compromised deepbit's servers or the hosting provider can sniff it.

Eligius doesn't have any passwords that anyone could steal.  Eligius pays out of the generated block— so your exposure should Eligius run off with their accounts is no more than the work you've done on this block (plus a max of 1btc rollover if you didn't make a btc in the prior block).   If the pool cheated by inserting fake shares that would show up as a disagreement between the public share balances and the rate of block success.


If your only concern is variance I'm sure we can find people who will pay you a _constant_ rate to mine which is just as or more attractive than deepbit's PPS…  Of course, you don't want to pay that much overhead, because you do care about things other than variance. So the question is how much is it worth to you?  Is it work compromising the security and sustainability of bitcoin itself?

Eligius has a higher hash rate than deepbit did two months ago. People were willing to pay for a 3% overhead back then to get the same amount of variance that you can get for ~free now. People are weird.

As a pool grows its variance benefit diminishes.  At best the variance can only be as good as the overall bitcoin block finding variance. Right now the entire network will find a block within 17 minutes 95% of the time, a pool with 2% of the capacity of the network (~50GH/s) would find a block in 95% of the time within 11.25 hours.   So even a small pool like Eligius will find multiple blocks per day with very high confidence, even after today's huge difficulty increase.

Slowness and caps on payments probably mean that you're not getting paid faster with a larger pool than about 50GH/s anyways.  I never saw more than two payments a day from deepbit, and two payments per day is the least you can expect from Eligius on 95% of all days.


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May 10, 2011, 06:57:17 AM
 #27

As a pool grows its variance benefit diminishes.  At best the variance can only be as good as the overall bitcoin block finding variance. Right now the entire network will find a block within 17 minutes 95% of the time, a pool with 2% of the capacity of the network (~50GH/s) would find a block in 95% of the time within 11.25 hours.   So even a small pool like Eligius will find multiple blocks per day with very high confidence, even after today's huge difficulty increase.

Slowness and caps on payments probably mean that you're not getting paid faster with a larger pool than about 50GH/s anyways.  I never saw more than two payments a day from deepbit, and two payments per day is the least you can expect from Eligius on 95% of all days.
As a pool grows its variance benefit increases. (Unless you mean it has diminshing marginal benefit, which is true).

You'll get two payments per day, yes, but what will be their amount? A pool of 50GH/s finds on average 6.4 blocks per day, distributed Poissonly. I've just generated a sequence of 10 values from this distribution and got {5, 7, 8, 7, 5, 2, 6, 8, 3, 6}. So if you have 1GH/s and expect to get 6.4 BTC each day, you can easily wake up one day and see that you've only made 2BTC. With this much variance it's hard to make sure everything's kosher.

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SleepMachine
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May 10, 2011, 07:25:28 AM
 #28

To answer the original question: bitcoinpool.com has no fees. A lot of people like to bitch on bitcoinpool for some reason...
Although i understand nster and some others that got their accounts compromised. They have a right to be mad. I myself havn't gotten compromised, and bitcoinpool have fixed their security and all other issues with haste since then.

I've been nothing but satisfied with bitcoinpool. I'll say it again. No fees.

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May 10, 2011, 04:42:44 PM
 #29

To answer the original question: bitcoinpool.com has no fees. A lot of people like to bitch on bitcoinpool for some reason...
Although i understand nster and some others that got their accounts compromised. They have a right to be mad. I myself havn't gotten compromised, and bitcoinpool have fixed their security and all other issues with haste since then.

I've been nothing but satisfied with bitcoinpool. I'll say it again. No fees.
I'm kind if I call their security record "shaky". Also, they're arrogantly blaming it all on brute force and users with compromised computers or using their account details elsewhere. However, the issues affect so many of their users, it just has to be the pool.

I think the Eligius pool is your best bet.
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