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Author Topic: A problem with Bitcoin?  (Read 2183 times)
DannyHamilton
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September 09, 2014, 03:32:04 AM
 #21

calm down please,

Um?

Okay.

you're obviously very heated

I am?

Odd. I hadn't noticed.  Thanks for the diagnosis.

Perhaps you can put as much effort into thinking about your future posts before you bother submitting them as you do into attempting to remotely diagnose the mental states of others.  Then you might actually have something worth discussing.

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9kv
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September 09, 2014, 01:48:20 PM
 #22

calm down please,

Um?

Okay.

you're obviously very heated

I am?

Odd. I hadn't noticed.  Thanks for the diagnosis.

Perhaps you can put as much effort into thinking about your future posts before you bother submitting them as you do into attempting to remotely diagnose the mental states of others.  Then you might actually have something worth discussing.

Instead of encouraging a flame war, why don't you set a good example (as a hero member) and just be respectful? Sad
DannyHamilton
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September 09, 2014, 01:56:54 PM
 #23

Instead of encouraging a flame war, why don't you set a good example (as a hero member) and just be respectful? Sad

Ok.  I respectfully request that you put a bit more thought into your posts.

Furthermore, I respectfully request that you attempt to avoid making false statements and presenting them as facts.

Additionally, I respectfully request that you explain why you believe that "governments need to know the amount of money going into their country and the amount of money leaving their country".

Finally, I respectfully request that you not waste time suggesting that a currency give up fungibility to satisfy your personal preferences.  It should be clear by now that it isn't possible to get consensus on such a proposal.  Since the bitcoin protocol can't change without nearly 100% consensus of all users, it should be clear that such a proposal isn't valid.

 

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September 09, 2014, 02:03:39 PM
 #24

I don't think Bitcoin will ever be allowed in its current state by any first-world government to get very big. The reason being is that all transactions are anonymous. Governments need to know the amount of money going into their country and the amount of money leaving their country. My proposal for this is to have an option (default value: true) on each transaction to get the geolocation of each IP (Country only) and put that in the txn hash.

you would be allowed to disable this option but the majority of users would be too lazy to change it and a slightly accurate amount is generated per country.

Does this make sense?

You started good, but then you are completely wrong imho.
First of all, clearly the government will try - sooner or later - to ban any crypto. That's something you've got right. (Just the reasons are different by far.)

As others stated, the transactions are far from anonymous. Even the possible excuse (which you didn't mention, I know) that the governments may not have enough people qualified enough to check the transactions is kinda weak, I am sure that NSA has enough specialists, which already check what funds go where (you know the drill: terrorists and such).

The governments don't know already how much fiat is in or out their country, so... yeah. Another wrong assumption.

Changing bitcoin by your ideas is.. let's say childish. No chance. Your conclusions are wrong by far and your idea is - sorry to say - far from brilliant and far from useful. And the people that want to hide will disable that "feature" anyway.

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September 09, 2014, 03:06:16 PM
 #25

If imports are higher than the exports for a nation the value of the currency is negatively impacted which is one of the reasons why governments want to know how much money goes in and out the country, rightly or wrongly. It is an economic indicator.

Some harsh posts in this thread. Read the below:

"Internet is for everyone - but it won't be if we are not responsible in its use and mindful of the rights of others who share its wealth. Let us dedicate ourselves to the responsible use of this new medium and to the proposition that with the freedoms the Internet enables comes a commensurate responsibility to use these powerful enablers with care and consideration.  For those who choose to abuse these privileges, let us dedicate ourselves to developing the necessary tools to combat the abuse and punish the abuser." - V. Cerf

Now get off the fucking Internet, you are spoiling it.

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September 09, 2014, 03:07:53 PM
Last edit: September 09, 2014, 03:24:59 PM by BurtW
 #26

Instead of encouraging a flame war, why don't you set a good example (as a hero member) and just be respectful? Sad
You started it, with your title to this thread.

There is an obvious problem with someone who only has 37 posts and has only been here since August 09, 2014 starting a thead entitled "An obvious problem with Bitcoin" in a forum filled people who know more about Bitcoin in their little finger than you.

Do you see that the title of your thread is calling everyone here stupid?  Here is how you come across:

"I know next to nothing about Bitcoin, and I know you guys have been here supporting and studying this thing for years and years but come on guys how could you lame ass idiots miss such an obvious issue.  Even though I really don't know anything about Bitcoin I am way smarter than you guys so I will do you all a big favor - here is how to fix it."

That is how you came across.  That is why you rubbed people the wrong way (including me).  That is why you are being flamed.

Was that your intention?

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September 09, 2014, 03:13:24 PM
 #27

If imports are higher than the exports for a nation the value of the currency is negatively impacted which is one of the reasons why governments want to know how much money goes in and out the country, rightly or wrongly. It is an economic indicator.
Nice.  You joined the thread and conversation and contributed.

Now get off the fucking Internet, you are spoiling it.
Then you fucking had to go an ruin your fucking post by fucking cussing and flaming people.  Oh, and fuck you.

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
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September 09, 2014, 03:15:04 PM
 #28

If imports are higher than the exports for a nation the value of the currency is negatively impacted which is one of the reasons why governments want to know how much money goes in and out the country, rightly or wrongly. It is an economic indicator.

But not Bitcoin because it is not exclusive to any country.

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cyberpinoy
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September 09, 2014, 03:33:34 PM
 #29

bitcoins is not always anonymous, ever tried googling your BTC addresses.
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September 09, 2014, 03:50:46 PM
 #30

If imports are higher than the exports for a nation the value of the currency is negatively impacted which is one of the reasons why governments want to know how much money goes in and out the country, rightly or wrongly. It is an economic indicator.
Nice.  You joined the thread and conversation and contributed.

Now get off the fucking Internet, you are spoiling it.
Then you fucking had to go an ruin your fucking post by fucking cussing and flaming people.  Oh, and fuck you.

You told me off. I feel bad that I stood up for the little guy. I should have stood by and watched the big guys roll over the little guy which is totally against the principles of the "father of the Internet" who's gift we are using right now.

Wait, aren't all of us on this forum the little guy standing up against the big guy?
BurtW
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September 09, 2014, 04:10:00 PM
 #31

If imports are higher than the exports for a nation the value of the currency is negatively impacted which is one of the reasons why governments want to know how much money goes in and out the country, rightly or wrongly. It is an economic indicator.
Nice.  You joined the thread and conversation and contributed.

Now get off the fucking Internet, you are spoiling it.
Then you fucking had to go an ruin your fucking post by fucking cussing and flaming people.  Oh, and fuck you.

You told me off. I feel bad that I stood up for the little guy. I should have stood by and watched the big guys roll over the little guy which is totally against the principles of the "father of the Internet" who's gift we are using right now.

Wait, aren't all of us on this forum the little guy standing up against the big guy?
I am guessing you thought that little rant was serious.  It was not.  I guess it was not over the top enough to show up as sarcasm.  I will try harder next time or use sarcasm tags.

We all know that Al Gore, the father of the Internet, got a raw deal and no recognition for it.  Oh, wait, he invented the Internet, my bad.

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
CliveK
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September 09, 2014, 04:24:29 PM
 #32

No offense was taken.

I enjoy your posts, they are honest and constructive. You are after all Burt Wonder...... ah geez, I let the cat out the bag!

Do agree the subject line could have been something far less controversial, but hey, moving on...
9kv
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September 09, 2014, 04:29:46 PM
 #33

Instead of encouraging a flame war, why don't you set a good example (as a hero member) and just be respectful? Sad

Ok.  I respectfully request that you put a bit more thought into your posts.

Furthermore, I respectfully request that you attempt to avoid making false statements and presenting them as facts.

Additionally, I respectfully request that you explain why you believe that "governments need to know the amount of money going into their country and the amount of money leaving their country".

Finally, I respectfully request that you not waste time suggesting that a currency give up fungibility to satisfy your personal preferences.  It should be clear by now that it isn't possible to get consensus on such a proposal.  Since the bitcoin protocol can't change without nearly 100% consensus of all users, it should be clear that such a proposal isn't valid.

 

I am just stating crazy showerthoughts I have. I don't put much thought into debunking them at the moment I post them because I like to keep a stream of consciousness going.

What false statement did I pose as fact?

They need to know the amount of money for, like CliveK said, economic reasons.

I don't think Bitcoin will ever be allowed in its current state by any first-world government to get very big. The reason being is that all transactions are anonymous. Governments need to know the amount of money going into their country and the amount of money leaving their country. My proposal for this is to have an option (default value: true) on each transaction to get the geolocation of each IP (Country only) and put that in the txn hash.

you would be allowed to disable this option but the majority of users would be too lazy to change it and a slightly accurate amount is generated per country.

Does this make sense?

You started good, but then you are completely wrong imho.
First of all, clearly the government will try - sooner or later - to ban any crypto. That's something you've got right. (Just the reasons are different by far.)

As others stated, the transactions are far from anonymous. Even the possible excuse (which you didn't mention, I know) that the governments may not have enough people qualified enough to check the transactions is kinda weak, I am sure that NSA has enough specialists, which already check what funds go where (you know the drill: terrorists and such).

The governments don't know already how much fiat is in or out their country, so... yeah. Another wrong assumption.

Changing bitcoin by your ideas is.. let's say childish. No chance. Your conclusions are wrong by far and your idea is - sorry to say - far from brilliant and far from useful. And the people that want to hide will disable that "feature" anyway.


The transactions are pretty anonymous compared to PayPal or bank transfer, I guess that is what I meant. sorry I wasn't very clear on that point.

They do know, google "m0 <country name here>" for a rough estimate of notes and such.

"And the people that want to hide will disable that "feature" anyway." that's why the feature is enabled. I'm saying that people who use Bitcoin in day-to-day transactions, the SAME people who use Paypal for day-to-day transactions, will NOT disable the feature. It's simple psychology, that's why sites automatically check "send me a newsletter" every time you sign up. It's easier to not say no, than it is to say no.

If imports are higher than the exports for a nation the value of the currency is negatively impacted which is one of the reasons why governments want to know how much money goes in and out the country, rightly or wrongly. It is an economic indicator.
"Internet is for everyone - but it won't be if we are not responsible in its use and mindful of the rights of others who share its wealth. Let us dedicate ourselves to the responsible use of this new medium and to the proposition that with the freedoms the Internet enables comes a commensurate responsibility to use these powerful enablers with care and consideration.  For those who choose to abuse these privileges, let us dedicate ourselves to developing the necessary tools to combat the abuse and punish the abuser." - V. Cerf

Thank you for recognizing some of the validity in my statement.

Instead of encouraging a flame war, why don't you set a good example (as a hero member) and just be respectful? Sad
You started it, with your title to this thread.

There is an obvious problem with someone who only has 37 posts and has only been here since August 09, 2014 starting a thead entitled "An obvious problem with Bitcoin" in a forum filled people who know more about Bitcoin in their little finger than you.

Do you see that the title of your thread is calling everyone here stupid?  Here is how you come across:

"I know next to nothing about Bitcoin, and I know you guys have been here supporting and studying this thing for years and years but come on guys how could you lame ass idiots miss such an obvious issue.  Even though I really don't know anything about Bitcoin I am way smarter than you guys so I will do you all a big favor - here is how to fix it."

That is how you came across.  That is why you rubbed people the wrong way (including me).  That is why you are being flamed.

Was that your intention?
Obviously not Burt, what title should I use next time i have an idea? "Ignore this, because I joined later than you did?"

If you really think i meant that, you should take a look at how you view others on the Internet. Don't make assumptions, either, like I "know next to nothing about Bitcoin". I've been using the protocol off and on since early 2012, just because I registered a month ago doesn't mean I learned about it a month ago.
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September 09, 2014, 04:34:54 PM
 #34

Burt and Danny I fixed my title for you. Is that better?
DannyHamilton
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September 09, 2014, 04:35:12 PM
 #35

I've been using the protocol off and on since early 2012, just because I registered a month ago doesn't mean I learned about it a month ago.

Plonk!

There.  That takes care of that problem.  Thank you for helping me make the decision.

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September 09, 2014, 04:38:36 PM
Last edit: September 09, 2014, 07:37:26 PM by 9kv
 #36

I've been using the protocol off and on since early 2012, just because I registered a month ago doesn't mean I learned about it a month ago.

Plonk!

There.  That takes care of that problem.  Thank you for helping me make the decision.
ignore me, I don't really care..
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September 09, 2014, 06:43:33 PM
 #37

Burt and Danny I fixed my title for you. Is that better?
Thanks.

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
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September 10, 2014, 01:42:57 AM
 #38

If imports are higher than the exports for a nation the value of the currency is negatively impacted which is one of the reasons why governments want to know how much money goes in and out the country, rightly or wrongly. It is an economic indicator.
Bitcoin being transferred overseas would not necessarily trigger an export nor an import from the country the bitcoin is being transferred from. It would be very well possible that someone from country A send money to country B to have a product produced in country C shipped to country D.

Additionally imports and exports are measured by the value of goods into and out of a country, not by the value of currency that flows into and out of the country.

The only reason a country would need to monitor money flows is to monitor the value of their currency, however this is not applicable with bitcoin as these transfers would not affect the local fiat currency.

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CliveK
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September 10, 2014, 04:51:57 AM
 #39

Bitcoin being transferred overseas would not necessarily trigger an export nor an import from the country the bitcoin is being transferred from. It would be very well possible that someone from country A send money to country B to have a product produced in country C shipped to country D.

But equally it could and does, but I get your point and agree.

Additionally imports and exports are measured by the value of goods into and out of a country, not by the value of currency that flows into and out of the country.

I am not sure if you are being serious on this. If you are, please take a look at just about every other country in the world other than your own, and how their currencies are valued compared to say the USD, and why their currencies are valued this way.

Please don't get me wrong, I am all for Bitcoin, but it is important understand the barriers, so they can be overcome, and society is a complex environment and it is not to be underestimated.
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September 10, 2014, 05:46:14 PM
 #40

If imports are higher than the exports for a nation the value of the currency is negatively impacted which is one of the reasons why governments want to know how much money goes in and out the country, rightly or wrongly. It is an economic indicator.
Bitcoin being transferred overseas would not necessarily trigger an export nor an import from the country the bitcoin is being transferred from. It would be very well possible that someone from country A send money to country B to have a product produced in country C shipped to country D.

Additionally imports and exports are measured by the value of goods into and out of a country, not by the value of currency that flows into and out of the country.

The only reason a country would need to monitor money flows is to monitor the value of their currency, however this is not applicable with bitcoin as these transfers would not affect the local fiat currency.
It's the amount of currency in basically every country minus a few.
Think about it - some countries only have one export (Oil, tourism, etc). Do they measure value by goods? Do they measure value by amount of currency?
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