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Author Topic: [ANN] ATOMIC: in SuperNET CORE - single blockchain for trading all coins&assets  (Read 57916 times)
jl777
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September 28, 2014, 01:53:59 AM
 #161

so what is the point in coins having individual block chains? seems like everything will just merge onto one blockchain in the future, if this project is a success. very cool if this works out..actually this is a pretty big deal. so much great stuff coming out right now!


for revenues - it will be just like NXT's PoS? all transaction fees will go to asset holders?
the miners will need some fees, but the majority will go to asset holders

We need all the different blockchains to preserve decentralization. Having just one blockchain for everything is a bit too centralizing in my opinion. Like SuperNET that connects all the coins at the RPC API level, the Atomic creates a shared record, so it is all part of creating a "single" crypto ecosystem but composed of all the different current and future cryptos.

Plus in practice there is no way to get everyone to just agree on one blockchain.

Atomic will become the official ticker tape of crypto and eventually even real world transactions as they migrate into crypto.

James

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
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CryptAxe
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September 28, 2014, 01:55:36 AM
 #162

so what is the point in coins having individual block chains? seems like everything will just merge onto one blockchain in the future, if this project is a success. very cool if this works out..actually this is a pretty big deal. so much great stuff coming out right now!


for revenues - it will be just like NXT's PoS? all transaction fees will go to asset holders?
the miners will need some fees, but the majority will go to asset holders

We need all the different blockchains to preserve decentralization. Having just one blockchain for everything is a bit too centralizing in my opinion. Like SuperNET that connects all the coins at the RPC API level, the Atomic creates a shared record, so it is all part of creating a "single" crypto ecosystem but composed of all the different current and future cryptos.

Plus in practice there is no way to get everyone to just agree on one blockchain.

Atomic will become the official ticker tape of crypto and eventually even real world transactions as they migrate into crypto.

James

Couldn't have said it better myself, ATOMIC will allow any coin to integrate but has no goals of monopolizing the blockchains Smiley

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September 28, 2014, 02:20:56 AM
 #163

amazing idea
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September 28, 2014, 02:23:48 AM
 #164

amazing idea

You can say that again. It helps any coin integrate.
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September 28, 2014, 03:56:20 AM
 #165

Brilliant. SuperNET is having a calming and charming effect on BTT too!

SN
S   U   P   E   R    N   E   T
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀   
Uniting cryptocurrencies, Rewarding talent, Sharing benefits..

Blockchain Technology.

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September 28, 2014, 06:21:14 PM
 #166

I actually like the no 1 icon - it gives a very friendly and welcome feeling.
and I like the idea with the empty sections that could be used to fill in different colors for different sequences or progressing steps at various stages in a program or wallet..

NXT-M888-3RBA-HVWZ-CV4YY

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September 28, 2014, 10:14:00 PM
 #167

I actually like the no 1 icon - it gives a very friendly and welcome feeling.
and I like the idea with the empty sections that could be used to fill in different colors for different sequences or progressing steps at various stages in a program or wallet..

NXT-M888-3RBA-HVWZ-CV4YY

The general consensus has already decided on style #4 but I would like to thank you for voting and you'll be receiving some ATOMIC  Smiley


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September 28, 2014, 11:10:33 PM
 #168

I like this hybrid project.

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RISE
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September 28, 2014, 11:41:01 PM
 #169

Update:
As we are wrapping up the process of getting the ATOMIC blockchain running for testing but before we actually generate the main net genesis block we would like to hear the opinions of those in the community about a few of the variables that we have had to set such as block time and number of coins.

Block Time:
   When deciding on what we wanted to make the block time for the ATOMIC network we took many things into consideration. First of all we wanted to make sure that the security of the blockchain was not compromised. When setting the block time you are playing with a double edged sword. Faster block times mean faster, but some would argue less secure transactions. Longer block times are arguably more secure but transactions take significantly longer. For example the original Bitcoin blockchain has block times of 10 minutes, while Litecoin has a block time of 2.5 minutes and Dogecoin a block time of just one minute. Although ATOMIC is not another altcoin it is just as important to the developers that we find a time fast enough to enable the advances we want to make with ATOMIC without compromising security. This is why we have settled for a block time of 5 minutes which places us right in between the block times of Litecoin and Bitcoin. We believe that a 5 minute block time is the best possible solution to reach a balance of speed and security on the ATOMIC network.

Number of coins:
        As ATOMIC itself is not a 'coin' and we are making use of transactions as a method of storing ledger information we believe that setting the number of coins to be generated to infinite is the best option. ATOMIC does not have to face the same issues as Bitcoin in regards to maintaining value by acting as a deflationary currency as it isn't a currency at all. Other well tested crypto-currencies like Dogecoin have adopted an infinite number of coins as a way to ensure that their miners will never leave once the rewards dry up. ATOMIC would be making use of an infinite number of coins simply to ensure that new blocks will always be generating which is required for ATOMIC to act as the main ledger / ticker tape of all cryptocurrencies. While it may not be an issue right now, 5 years from now we do not want ATOMIC to run out of blocks!

We are open to discussion on these topics and we would love to hear any arguments for alternative values which may work better for ATOMIC, although we have put a lot of time into making these preliminary decisions.


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September 29, 2014, 12:11:07 AM
 #170

Update:
As we are wrapping up the process of getting the ATOMIC blockchain running for testing but before we actually generate the main net genesis block we would like to hear the opinions of those in the community about a few of the variables that we have had to set such as block time and number of coins.

Block Time:
   When deciding on what we wanted to make the block time for the ATOMIC network we took many things into consideration. First of all we wanted to make sure that the security of the blockchain was not compromised. When setting the block time you are playing with a double edged sword. Faster block times mean faster, but some would argue less secure transactions. Longer block times are arguably more secure but transactions take significantly longer. For example the original Bitcoin blockchain has block times of 10 minutes, while Litecoin has a block time of 2.5 minutes and Dogecoin a block time of just one minute. Although ATOMIC is not another altcoin it is just as important to the developers that we find a time fast enough to enable the advances we want to make with ATOMIC without compromising security. This is why we have settled for a block time of 5 minutes which places us right in between the block times of Litecoin and Bitcoin. We believe that a 5 minute block time is the best possible solution to reach a balance of speed and security on the ATOMIC network.

Number of coins:
        As ATOMIC itself is not a 'coin' and we are making use of transactions as a method of storing ledger information we believe that setting the number of coins to be generated to infinite is the best option. ATOMIC does not have to face the same issues as Bitcoin in regards to maintaining value by acting as a deflationary currency as it isn't a currency at all. Other well tested crypto-currencies like Dogecoin have adopted an infinite number of coins as a way to ensure that their miners will never leave once the rewards dry up. ATOMIC would be making use of an infinite number of coins simply to ensure that new blocks will always be generating which is required for ATOMIC to act as the main ledger / ticker tape of all cryptocurrencies. While it may not be an issue right now, 5 years from now we do not want ATOMIC to run out of blocks!

We are open to discussion on these topics and we would love to hear any arguments for alternative values which may work better for ATOMIC, although we have put a lot of time into making these preliminary decisions.


2x bitcoin frequency is what I would have recommended and that happens to be 5 minutes!

I was thinking that the miners would probably get more from InstantDEX revshare than whatever the coins they mine would be worth. Not sure what utility the coins actually have here (other than being able to use existing codebase and they all spit out coins from coinbase) and maybe some speculative market will be created, or maybe there will be some use for these coins that we come up with.

OK, I came up with a use!

Not all blocks will have the same value. One block might have a DOGE<->LTC swap another could be recorded a Legal Deed for a real estate transaction. The InstantDEX revshare would be based on the economic value of the tx a specific miner was involved in. This will be quite "lumpy" and provide results like solo mining. The coins could be the equivalent of a mining pool. The InstantDEX revshare could be allocated between the specific miner and the entire set of Atomic miners.

If this split is 50/50 (maybe 2/3 vs 1/3?) then the revenues allocated to the entire set of Atomic miners would be allocated based on the number of coins they have. Basically each coin would be a share of the mining pool and when there are revenue sources other than just InstantDEX, this could become quite a bit larger than a share of 0.1% trading commissions

The coins are perfect to represent the proportional value of mining, but I dont like the rapid emmissions that a lot of coins have. It gives the earliest miners a disproportionate number of coins. Hopefully we can get a lot more linear emission, so that a miner joining later is making close to the same rate. After all there is no arms race for hashrate, so any sort of exponential difficulty increase seems wrong.

James

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
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September 29, 2014, 01:24:26 AM
 #171

Update:
As we are wrapping up the process of getting the ATOMIC blockchain running for testing but before we actually generate the main net genesis block we would like to hear the opinions of those in the community about a few of the variables that we have had to set such as block time and number of coins.

Block Time:
   When deciding on what we wanted to make the block time for the ATOMIC network we took many things into consideration. First of all we wanted to make sure that the security of the blockchain was not compromised. When setting the block time you are playing with a double edged sword. Faster block times mean faster, but some would argue less secure transactions. Longer block times are arguably more secure but transactions take significantly longer. For example the original Bitcoin blockchain has block times of 10 minutes, while Litecoin has a block time of 2.5 minutes and Dogecoin a block time of just one minute. Although ATOMIC is not another altcoin it is just as important to the developers that we find a time fast enough to enable the advances we want to make with ATOMIC without compromising security. This is why we have settled for a block time of 5 minutes which places us right in between the block times of Litecoin and Bitcoin. We believe that a 5 minute block time is the best possible solution to reach a balance of speed and security on the ATOMIC network.

Number of coins:
        As ATOMIC itself is not a 'coin' and we are making use of transactions as a method of storing ledger information we believe that setting the number of coins to be generated to infinite is the best option. ATOMIC does not have to face the same issues as Bitcoin in regards to maintaining value by acting as a deflationary currency as it isn't a currency at all. Other well tested crypto-currencies like Dogecoin have adopted an infinite number of coins as a way to ensure that their miners will never leave once the rewards dry up. ATOMIC would be making use of an infinite number of coins simply to ensure that new blocks will always be generating which is required for ATOMIC to act as the main ledger / ticker tape of all cryptocurrencies. While it may not be an issue right now, 5 years from now we do not want ATOMIC to run out of blocks!

We are open to discussion on these topics and we would love to hear any arguments for alternative values which may work better for ATOMIC, although we have put a lot of time into making these preliminary decisions.



@blocktime

i agree, nothing much to add there.

@number of coins

i think the two most important reasons to mine a coin is either the miner believes and want to support the coin or mining for profit.
like you said atomic is actually no real coin in a sense, so it will be very important to give miners an incentive to mine.

is it possible to create a system where the amount of circulating coins is dynamicly adjusted?
imho a stable price which is profitable is a very good incentive for miners. 
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September 29, 2014, 01:50:21 AM
 #172

Update:
...
2x bitcoin frequency is what I would have recommended and that happens to be 5 minutes!

I was thinking that the miners would probably get more from InstantDEX revshare than whatever the coins they mine would be worth. Not sure what utility the coins actually have here (other than being able to use existing codebase and they all spit out coins from coinbase) and maybe some speculative market will be created, or maybe there will be some use for these coins that we come up with.

OK, I came up with a use!

Not all blocks will have the same value. One block might have a DOGE<->LTC swap another could be recorded a Legal Deed for a real estate transaction. The InstantDEX revshare would be based on the economic value of the tx a specific miner was involved in. This will be quite "lumpy" and provide results like solo mining. The coins could be the equivalent of a mining pool. The InstantDEX revshare could be allocated between the specific miner and the entire set of Atomic miners.

If this split is 50/50 (maybe 2/3 vs 1/3?) then the revenues allocated to the entire set of Atomic miners would be allocated based on the number of coins they have. Basically each coin would be a share of the mining pool and when there are revenue sources other than just InstantDEX, this could become quite a bit larger than a share of 0.1% trading commissions

The coins are perfect to represent the proportional value of mining, but I dont like the rapid emmissions that a lot of coins have. It gives the earliest miners a disproportionate number of coins. Hopefully we can get a lot more linear emission, so that a miner joining later is making close to the same rate. After all there is no arms race for hashrate, so any sort of exponential difficulty increase seems wrong.

James

That's a great idea in some ways it reminds me of the way that the USPS handles insurance levels on shipments. The higher that the declared value is, the higher the insurance cost and thus higher the rewards for the miners(or postal workers Wink ). I actually considered making levels of miner based on things like number of coins in wallet and the age of the coins in order to help decide what nodes are the most active an reliable so you have given me inspiration in that area as well! I'm going to keep all of this in mind and post back here once we have the process written out in detail and figure out a way to maintain a level playing field for newcomers.

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September 29, 2014, 01:55:32 AM
 #173


...

@number of coins

i think the two most important reasons to mine a coin is either the miner believes and want to support the coin or mining for profit.
like you said atomic is actually no real coin in a sense, so it will be very important to give miners an incentive to mine.

is it possible to create a system where the amount of circulating coins is dynamicly adjusted?
imho a stable price which is profitable is a very good incentive for miners. 


I will look into adjusting the number of coins in circulation but I'm 99.99% sure that's impossible as that capability would probably not be wanted in a decentralized currency because it would be seen as a backdoor of sorts. Also keep in mind that with many kinds of assets or even blockchain based things we haven't imagined yet moving through the ATOMIC network it could be possible to reward miners in mores ways that one. That would be another thing that I haven't heard of in any other crypto-currency.

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September 29, 2014, 05:55:29 AM
 #174


Number of coins:
        As ATOMIC itself is not a 'coin' and we are making use of transactions as a method of storing ledger information we believe that setting the number of coins to be generated to infinite is the best option. ATOMIC does not have to face the same issues as Bitcoin in regards to maintaining value by acting as a deflationary currency as it isn't a currency at all.

Maybe it's a good idea to totally avoid the word 'coin'.
Call them 'tokens'.
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September 29, 2014, 03:51:48 PM
 #175


Number of coins:
        As ATOMIC itself is not a 'coin' and we are making use of transactions as a method of storing ledger information we believe that setting the number of coins to be generated to infinite is the best option. ATOMIC does not have to face the same issues as Bitcoin in regards to maintaining value by acting as a deflationary currency as it isn't a currency at all.

Maybe it's a good idea to totally avoid the word 'coin'.
Call them 'tokens'.

Yeah that's why I've been putting 'coin' in quotation marks most of the time because it's still questionable how the 'coins' will be used. I think we will start calling them tokens from now to avoid confusion until we make a final decision.

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September 30, 2014, 12:18:14 AM
 #176

Proof Of Gateway Summary (more details soon)
   POG or Proof Of Gateway will be an important part of the ATOMIC network as its responsibility will be to keep track of and measure the statistics of each node on the ATOMIC network. These statistics collected by the POG process will be used to determine which nodes on the network are the fastest and most reliable among other things and thus deserving of larger rewards. Once a node on the ATOMIC network has qualified as a full node (which is described in the next paragraph) the following attributes will be used to rank the node in comparison to all other nodes.

*Connection: Those wishing to profit as 'miners' on the ATOMIC network should be running nodes 24/7  on reliable systems with reliable connections. This does not mean that users who wish to open the software every once in a while will not be able to profit as a node, but those with dedicated nodes will be heavily favored to benefit the network.

*Age of held coins: In order to maintain a level playing field for newcomers this will be the least important of all of the attributes that will be used to rank nodes. The only good decentralized way for us to prove that a node has been a member of the network for a long period of time will be via the coin-age attribute. Nodes that have coins held which have a coin age of over 30 days will receive a slight boost in the rankings to reward their consistent participation in the network.

*Number of successful additions to the ledger: Each addition to the ATOMIC ledger will boost the rankings of the responsible node and the first nodes to confirm the addition.

*Number of blockchains the node has access to: The more blockchains that a node of ATOMIC can keep track of the more significant the reward to the node will be and the higher the chances will be that your node will be selected to be involved in the first steps of an ATOMIC exchange.

In order to be considered a full node, the node must pass a series of tests many of which are already built into Bitcoin core. The blockchain must be in sync, and the correct ports to allow outside connections must be forwarded. For most users, this will mean that NAT port forwarding must be configured. This is the same process that Bitcoin wallets require in order to run as full nodes and participate in the network by allowing new nodes to get in sync with the blockchain.

There are a few more tidbits that I don't want to release yet in regards to this process but I think they will be well liked by this community.

Note: CryptAxe will be managing blockchain seeds similar to the starter seeds available for Bitcoin and some other crypto-currencies. This means that you will not need to wait for days while the blockchain syncs up once it has reached a large enough size and can simply torrent the majority of the blockchain ahead of time. (this torrent will be recreated as demand requires but most likely monthly or on a per GB added to the blockchain basis)

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October 01, 2014, 07:33:00 AM
 #177

What is the value proposition of ATOMIC to asset holders?
there will be fees for the recording of the tx pair and these fees will be accumulated for dividends to assetholders

The specifics on fees have not been determined yet and it will be optimized. Clearly if it is too high then nobody will use the Atomic blockchain, so we need to test different fee structures to make sure it is not impacting usage.

InstantDEX plans to use the Atomic blockchain, so it will have a built in default customer.

James

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October 02, 2014, 02:50:36 AM
 #178

Update: I spent a whole lot of jl777's time discussing how we would implement this and a lot of people have been asking so I would call this a big update Smiley

Atoms

An explanation of how the coins on the ATOMIC network will work as well as information about the fees, rewards and profit to both miners and shareholders of ATOMIC assets

Coins:
  As the ATOMIC network is making use of blockchain technology but is not just a typical altcoin we have decided to call the coins on the network Atoms. Atoms will be used first as a way to append transactions onto the ATOMIC ledger, and second they will be used to reward nodes on the network, or 'miners'.

I. Appending Transactions:
  Atoms may or may not contain information related to ATOMIC exchanges. For example if a user pays to exchange NXT to BTCD, the Atoms used to facilitate the exchange will contain information to verify the exchange which will inherently be added to the ATOMIC Ledger in the next block on the chain. Adding this extra data will make the transactions larger (in bytes) and the more coins that are sent, the larger the transaction will be.  Users will also be able to send Atoms directly between themselves without adding any of this extra data so the backbone of the network will not be strained, and the blockchain will not increase greatly in size for transactions between users that are not part of an exchange. This selective process will allow the coin to be used both as a regular coin with no additional functionality while at the same time allowing the network to append exchange information without any additional setup, delay, or any difference at all in how the coin functions as far as the end user can tell.

II.  Reward miners:
  The cost of mining ATOMIC is much lower by comparison than the cost of mining Bitcoin or Litecoin. Instead of setting up miners with expensive ASICs, crypto-currency enthusiasts may profit by running the ATOMIC software on just about any platform you could imagine from Raspberry Pi's and desktops to VPS instances. What this means for miners is much more steady as well as larger profit margins which are influenced more by participation in the network than the total hashrate of the network.

Fees:
The fees on the ATOMIC network will serve to reward both the miners and asset holders. The standard transaction fees required by blockchain technology will be rewarded directly to the miners (according to the Proof Of Gateway protocol described earlier).
   
The asset holders will receive dividends in the form of the accumulation of non-Atom transaction fees. For example if user A with Bitcoin wants to send money to user B who only wants Litecoin, user A will pay a tiny fee in Bitcoin to a special address that will initiate the exchange. Due to the  nature of the ATOMIC network, the exchange requires that the user also have enough Atoms in their wallet to cover the transaction fee to the miners.

This process gives the power to set the price of Atoms to the nodes on the network while also rewarding asset holders directly with fees collected by the exchange process.

   

   

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October 03, 2014, 10:37:07 PM
 #179

Hey everyone, just wanted to let you know that I have uploaded the documentation with all of the updates so far and a few additional tidbits in odt and pdf format to the website and you can download both of them right here: http://atomicdac.org/?page_id=11033 The website is almost ready to go, you'll see that we have added some graphics as well as a status area which will be used to show how many nodes are up, how many transactions have made their way through the ATOMIC network, the size of the blockchain and the number of downloads of the wallet. You can also feel free to join the mailing list that we have setup by clicking the big yellow button.

Right now the other dev and I are working on the finishing touches of the alpha build. I still need to finish up the user interface (Qt) but if I get it done today (fingers crossed) I will be sure to post some screenshots for you guys.

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October 04, 2014, 01:56:25 AM
 #180

Hi, I'm Eureka from China, a skilled C#  programer.
I believe decentraliation will change the world.
I'm the only author of the cointrade platform (website developed by me too: http://cointrade.pw ) ,Metro style using C#,WPF,MEF and so on, and you can
view Chinese screenshots here:https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=324469.0 and English screenshots here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=384366.0
I have developed many software (see http://eesoftware.com) and many websites (see http://www.ee-studio.com)
Now I will be working on the ATOMIC team building a community in China as well as helping them with development!

dac.xyz 
对数字货币深度思考:http://8btc.com/thread-109365-1-1.html
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