Monero FUD/Negativity Thread (Honest Discourse)

[othe]

9 - Monero and/or their community refuses to make their own forums, and that is a large reason for all of the Monero spamming (for and against) in this subforum. I think this is a slimy marketing tactic to make it seem as if Monero has much more interest/support than it actually has. Imagine what a clusterfuck these subforums would be if all Alt coins didn't have their own forums.

Thats not true, we are writing our own forum software as we don´t want to be stuck on SMF for years like Bitcointalk; read the missives, its all in there. Theres simply no ready-to-go forum software that suits our needs.
Its pretty simple for us, we do it like we think its correct before we rush something out. Crap and rushed out code in the end will cost more time than thought out code that needs time tho for a first release; but the code has to be maintainable for years, same reason we refactor large amounts of the CN source.

[CoinHoarder]

9 - Monero and/or their community refuses to make their own forums, and that is a large reason for all of the Monero spamming (for and against) in this subforum. I think this is a slimy marketing tactic to make it seem as if Monero has much more interest/support than it actually has. Imagine what a clusterfuck these subforums would be if all Alt coins didn't have their own forums.

Thats not true, we are writing our own forum software as we don´t want to be stuck on SMF for years like Bitcointalk; read the missives, its all in there. Theres simply no ready-to-go forum software that suits our needs.
Its pretty simple for us, we do it like we think its correct before we rush something out. Crap and rushed out code in the end will cost more time than thought out code that needs time tho for a first release; but the code has to be maintainable for years, same reason we refactor large amounts of the CN source.

I'm sorry, but that is not a good excuse. There are plenty of readily available FREE forum software solutions that take only minutes to install from a cpanel easily. The idea you need some custom solution to discuss Monero is ridiculous.

Bitcoin is pretty much the only Cryptocurrency that has a custom forum solution, and even it is fairly basic with Trust being the only noticeable modification, and look how far they have come. I understand they are working on a more custom solution, but it is definitely not necessary and ALT coins don't have nearly the resources Bitcoin has. For instance, I believe Theymos has over 1000 Bitcoins specifically for spending on custom forums. I think Monero's developers would be better off spending their time and resources elsewhere for the time being.

Every other Alt coin uses basic forum software that is readily available and free.. I don't get how Monero is so special that it needs a custom solution. Even if it is only temporary, it is better than spamming Bitcointalk with your threads.

[rdnkjdi]

11 - Monero's emission curve is rather aggressive, when people analyze it in a couple-few years it will look somewhat like a community instamine coin... kind of like Quark which mined a large portion of the money supply in 6 months. A more fair distribution curve would have been better for the long term success of Monero, but people are greedy and want profits sooner rather than later.

I've added this point (my own words) to the OP.

9 - Monero and/or their community refuses to make their own forums, and that is a large reason for all of the Monero spamming (for and against) in this subforum. I think this is a slimy marketing tactic to make it seem as if Monero has much more interest/support than it actually has. Imagine what a clusterfuck these subforums would be if all Alt coins didn't have their own forums.

There was a monerotalk.org I think but I think no one used it.  I agree with the shilling/spamming/trolling for Monero is somewhere south of tasteful.  I believe the tipping point was when rptellia created a third thread the "is it possible to destroy Monero".  His altcoin observer - he admits Monero is his only alt so it follows that it's the primary point of discussion and most others are discussed in "how does this fit into Monero's vision".  Then there's the Monero economic thread - then there was a third one he created.  

Then Spotniek & Come-From-Above started spamming with jackpotcoin threads.  Then the Monero88 guy or whoever came in and started creating more monero spam threads and doing poe on Monero supporters.  I guess long story short from my viewpoint is average person here is stupid and will shill/spam/fud/troll in their best interest or entertainment.  The fact that Monero happens to be the center of that at this point in time doesn't say much to me one way or another.  (maybe it should)

[CoinHoarder]

9 - Monero and/or their community refuses to make their own forums, and that is a large reason for all of the Monero spamming (for and against) in this subforum. I think this is a slimy marketing tactic to make it seem as if Monero has much more interest/support than it actually has. Imagine what a clusterfuck these subforums would be if all Alt coins didn't have their own forums.

There was a monerotalk.org I think but I think no one used it.  I agree with the shilling/spamming/trolling for Monero is somewhere south of tasteful.  I believe the tipping point was when rptellia created a third thread.  His altcoin observer - he admits Monero is his only alt so it follows that it's the primary point of discussion and most others are discussed in "how does this fit into Monero's vision".  Then there's the Monero economic thread - then there was a third one he created.  

Then Spotniek & Come-From-Above started spamming with jackpotcoin threads.  Then the Monero88 guy or whoever came in and started creating more monero spam threads and doing poe on Monero supporters.  I guess long story short from my viewpoint is average person here is stupid and will shill/spam/fud/troll in their best interest or entertainment.  The fact that Monero happens to be the center of that at this point in time doesn't say much to me one way or another.  (maybe it should)

I think having an official (or unofficial) forum would go a long ways towards limiting the Monero trolling. This is supposed to be a place to discuss all ALT coins in general, and lately it has been mainly Monero or anti-Monero. The amount of pro-Monero threads and posts has initiated the response of people to counter them. The problem is so bad that even I myself am finding ways to criticize it, and I am someone who thinks Monero is the probably the best anon crypto/Cryptonote coin that is in existence today. I am just sick of talking/reading about Monero, and think it is neither as bad as trolls make it out to be, or as good an investment as the supporters make it seem. Again, getting your own forums will go a long ways towards the problem I think.

[btc-mike]

While we're talking about FUD - why did you quit the BBR team?  I'm honestly curious - not wanting to launch an attack on anyone.  I'm trying to hold same number of BBR/XMR.

Zoidberg and I had different opinions on the direction BBR should take. I decided it would be best for me to leave.

[aminorex]

These are the downsides I see.  I

1 - The original Cryptonote/Bytecoin devs are likely attacking Monero (see blockchain fork which didn't require a 51% attack - but a deep understanding of sourcecode)

I agree.  I think surviving the attack so easily (without even forking to exclude the bad transactions) adds a LOT of confidence.

2 - The original code contains unsafe / undocumented C code.

Weaksauce.

3 - The devs are moving rather slowly from a perspective of what other coins provide (No official GUI, blockchain is still loaded into memory, etc).  This is likely due to the Cryptonote (non bitcoin) codebase.  However it appears Zoidberg/BBR is moving faster in these areas than the Monero team.

They treat my money very very carefully.  I appreciate that.

4 - Monero is not user friendly.  At the point it becomes successful / gains market share it will likely be labelled as intentionally kept user unfriendly in the beginning to exclude non geeks.

Anybody can easily buy XMR on Poloniex today, if they can manage to send BTC from one exchange to another.  If you can't, I'll happily help you get some Monero.

5 - An outside entity had a period of a miner that was up to 5X faster than the publicly available miner.  

Yes.  The amount of XMR involved is pretty small.  They probably spent it all on the attacks.

6 - Arguably it's inflated price is due to being shamelessly pumped by bitcoin whales.  If/when they remove their support - it tanks.

They buy as cheaply as they can, because they're not stupid.  And they won't stop supporting it because of a wee storm by disgruntled scammers.  They want XMR because of its particular features.  There is no other place to get them.

7 - Blockchain bloat

Nobody cares except the trolls.  It just means thin client is more important for XMR than it was for BTC.  If Chandran signatures are adaptable to the XMR blockchain without undue disruption, that will reduce the bloat, but really, having a blockchain 5x the size of bitcoin is not going to deter anyone from pool mining, which is all that really matters.  Just look at the hash rate on XMR.  Up 60bp per day since June.

8 - SuperNET chose the other primary Cryptonote coin.

It did.  You can decide if that is good or bad.  I won't touch it with a ten foot pole right now.

9 - Emission curve.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=585480.0.  A high initial emission curve can be unfair to later adopters.  BBR's emission rate is more consistent/fairer to late adopters.  

The emission is high NOW, which means the coin is cheap NOW which means you should buy it NOW.  The cheaper the coin is, the more dispersion it gets, and the more rapidly the economy can grow.  Spread the coins around.


We need more serious FUD:

10 - Not enough financial support for development.  Holders are greedy and foolish, and won't pay for software.

11 - No interest from dark markets.  I mean, seriously, if your anon coin can't be used on SR2/TMP, what good is it ever going to be?

12 - Too much interest from dark markets.  You think Eric Holder is going to wink at your drug trafficking tax dodge?  The hammer will come down!

13 - Bitcoin is failing.  If the grand-daddy can't float, how can the baby float?

14 - Not enough liquidity.  No serious money can go to XMR because pump&dumps are just using it to drain off fiat into their BTC wallets.  The cap has been down for weeks now.  Clearly it's dying like any other alt.

15 - Too much liquidity.  It doesn't attract speculative money because there's no volatility.  Without a viable pump plan, why would an alt speculator buy XMR?  Better to buy LTC which at least has a dead cat bounce coming due.

16 - No legitimate merchant will touch it.  Too scary.

17 - Anoncoin will implement zerocash, but without the trusted mint, using RSA UFOs.  That makes XMR technically obsolete.  Provable moon math trumps probabilistic guarantees from legacy crypto.

18 - Orange is ugly.

19 - Anonymous developers on the team means it is probably a scam/honeypot.

20 - Everyone is already all-in darkcoin, so it's too late for XMR to be leading anon.  Why then should I not prefer the leader?

[From Above]

walls of text

seriously could u shut the fuck up and stop bumping the monero threads?  do u have some kind of illness or why dont u fucking get it ?

~CfA~

[rdnkjdi]

14 - Not enough liquidity.  No serious money can go to XMR because pump&dumps are just using it to drain off fiat into their BTC wallets.  The cap has been down for weeks now.  Clearly it's dying like any other alt.

I agree with this one as probably my biggest concern.  But honestly - XMR seems to be leading the legit altcoin pack when it comes to liquidity.  100K a day (sometimes less) isn't a lot in the grand scheme of things.  So it didn't really seem like good FUD since it's normally beating all of it's peers.

While I agree with most of your other FUD.  In most of the categories you mention Monero is leading the competition.  

Your concerns are more along the lines of "what needs to happen before Monero is viewed as bitcoins equal"

7 - Blockchain bloat

Nobody cares except the trolls.

I care.  And I have money in it.  I love the way shills just sluff concerns off as "only things the trolls care about".  Let me explain why I care.  If a bitcoin codebase - say dark comes along and impliments ring signatures.  Then the cost per transaction is much less as the cost for storage is much less.  As the cost to store all of the transactions are less.

It's called scalability.  Even if you think it's stupid - there's a difference between downloading a 250MB blockchain and a 1GB blockchain.  Fees likely would be 4 times less.  Want to know the currency I see pools delaying payments on?  Monero.  Wanna know why?  Blockchain bloat / spam attacks.  Increased fees.  Shill - in - chief making sure we don't "give away precious space for too cheap" by charging .01 transaction fees.

So in response - no it isn't "just trolls" who care.  It's people who worry about an alternative gaining traction with something that is more scalable/cheaper transactions.  We might be mis-informed.  Or stupid.  But we aren't "just trolls"

Attitudes like this - dismissal of concerns by character assassination - irritates me beyond belief.  

P.S.  Thanks for the added FUD.  Some pretty good points.

[aminorex]

walls of text

seriously could u shut the fuck up and stop bumping the monero threads?  do u have some kind of illness or why dont u fucking get it ?

~CfA~

When I get hatey-hate from pathetic trolling scammers, it always makes me feel a little more alive, a little more like life is worthwhile.

[From Above]

walls of text

seriously could u shut the fuck up and stop bumping the monero threads?  do u have some kind of illness or why dont u fucking get it ?

~CfA~

When I get hatey-hate from pathetic trolling scammers, it always makes me feel a little more alive, a little more like life is worthwhile.

thats fine for u random monero bitch #298593258 but seriously we dont give a shite about ur walls of text about ur garbage coin. just shut it up and crawl back in the hole u came from. or go to ur own munero forums. munero is a PEST on here and u make it grow

~CfA~

[aminorex]

7 - Blockchain bloat

Nobody cares except the trolls.

I care.  And I have money in it.  I love the way shills just sluff concerns off as "only things the trolls care about".  Let me explain why I care.  If a bitcoin codebase - say dark comes along and impliments ring signatures.  Then the cost per transaction is much less as the cost for storage is much less.  As the cost to store all of the transactions are less.

It's called scalability.  Even if you think it's stupid - there's a difference between downloading a 250MB blockchain and a 1GB blockchain.  Fees likely would be 4 times less.  Want to know the currency I see pools delaying payments on?  Monero.  Wanna know why?  Blockchain bloat / spam attacks.  Increased fees.  Shill - in - chief making sure we don't "give away precious space for too cheap" by charging .01 transaction fees.

So in response - no it isn't "just trolls" who care.  It's people who worry about an alternative gaining traction with something that is more scalable/cheaper transactions.  We might be mis-informed.  Or stupid.  But we aren't "just trolls"

Attitudes like this - dismissal of concerns by character assassination - irritates me beyond belief.  

P.S.  Thanks for the added FUD.  Some pretty good points.

I consider the point ludicrous.  Yes, it's better to have a more compact chain.  But not at the cost of robust privacy guarantees.  Without those guarantees, XMR would be no better than any of the "anon" scams.  What you are complaining about is the very source of XMR's robust position in the market.  A super-compact coin with no value is not interesting.

I say that only trolls care because only trolls don't want XMR to have robust privacy guarantees.  You can complain about the TSLA Model S requiring batteries, but if it did not require batteries, it would not have the market which it has.

[rdnkjdi]

I consider the point ludicrous.  Yes, it's better to have a more compact chain.  But not at the cost of robust privacy guarantees.  Without those guarantees, XMR would be no better than any of the "anon" scams.  What you are complaining about is the very source of XMR's robust position in the market.  A super-compact coin with no value is not interesting.

I say that only trolls care because only trolls don't want XMR to have robust privacy guarantees.  You can complain about the TSLA Model S requiring batteries, but if it did not require batteries, it would not have the market which it has.

Fair enough.  Thinking of the blockchain pruning BBR has done I guess I was under the assumption that the blockchain space might not be as big as it is with optimizations while maintaining anonymity.  The lethargic attitude towards blockchain space could lead to XMR being susceptible to something else bypassing it in this area (assuming the developers / leaders of the coin share your attitude of blockchain size concern = trolling)

I honestly don't know enough to know how much space it's possible to eliminate & keep anonymity under the cryptonote paradime.  I know rumors of porting parts of XMR over to bitcoin codebase with the recent attack.  And then drk talking about doing ring signatures.

I have no idea how much either of those really apply to this argument (would the bitcoin codebase mentioned implementing get rid of the blockchain bloat - or do nothing?  is it possible for drk to be as anonymous as cryptonote?) - so this probably belongs under the "uncertainty" in the back of my mind "is there a better solution out there waiting to be implemented that will eliminate the blockchain bloat and maintain solid/provable anonymity?"

Edit:  BXC (if this is legit - screenshots make me wonder if it is) - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=785326.0

[btc-mike]

I consider the point ludicrous.  Yes, it's better to have a more compact chain.  But not at the cost of robust privacy guarantees.  Without those guarantees, XMR would be no better than any of the "anon" scams.  What you are complaining about is the very source of XMR's robust position in the market.  A super-compact coin with no value is not interesting.

I say that only trolls care because only trolls don't want XMR to have robust privacy guarantees.  You can complain about the TSLA Model S requiring batteries, but if it did not require batteries, it would not have the market which it has.

Fair enough.  Thinking of the blockchain pruning BBR has done I guess I was under the assumption that the blockchain space might not be as big as it is with optimizations while maintaining anonymity.  The lethargic attitude towards blockchain space could lead to XMR being susceptible to something else bypassing it in this area (assuming the developers / leaders of the coin share your attitude of blockchain size concern = trolling)

I honestly don't know enough to know how much space it's possible to eliminate & keep anonymity under the cryptonote paradime.  I know rumors of porting parts of XMR over to bitcoin codebase with the recent attack.  And then drk talking about doing ring signatures.

I have no idea how much either of those really apply to this argument (would the bitcoin codebase mentioned implementing get rid of the blockchain bloat - or do nothing?  is it possible for drk to be as anonymous as cryptonote?) - so this probably belongs under the "uncertainty" in the back of my mind "is there a better solution out there waiting to be implemented that will eliminate the blockchain bloat and maintain solid/provable anonymity?"

Edit:  BXC (if this is legit - screenshots make me wonder if it is) - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=785326.0

BBR cut the off the ring signatures. Pruning the blockchain is something else and feathers get ruffled if you say the wrong thing. BBR and XMR anonymity should be similar but neither has been thoroughly tested.

XMR is working on moving the blockchain out of memory and into a database. Once that is complete, the size is not that important. It won't be "small," but it is nothing current technology cannot handle.

[btc-mike]

These are the downsides I see.  I

1 - The original Cryptonote/Bytecoin devs are likely attacking Monero (see blockchain fork which didn't require a 51% attack - but a deep understanding of sourcecode)

I agree.  I think surviving the attack so easily (without even forking to exclude the bad transactions) adds a LOT of confidence.

....

aminorex, that was a very weak post. i have come to expect more from you.

[Moneroman88]

These are the downsides I see.  I

1 - The original Cryptonote/Bytecoin devs are likely attacking Monero (see blockchain fork which didn't require a 51% attack - but a deep understanding of sourcecode)

I agree.  I think surviving the attack so easily (without even forking to exclude the bad transactions) adds a LOT of confidence.

....

aminorex, that was a very weak post. i have come to expect more from you.

uhm, why was his post weak?

[Ultros]

These are the downsides I see.  I

1 - The original Cryptonote/Bytecoin devs are likely attacking Monero (see blockchain fork which didn't require a 51% attack - but a deep understanding of sourcecode)

I agree.  I think surviving the attack so easily (without even forking to exclude the bad transactions) adds a LOT of confidence.

....

aminorex, that was a very weak post. i have come to expect more from you.

Getting tired by trolls I suppose. It's getting extremely toxic these days. Too toxic I may say. The more I see it, the less I understand the choice for XMR community to stay on bitcointalk. I know it's early, I know it's hard to make people migrate, I know it gather focus to post here. I know all of that but still... we're getting infected by FUD and trolls every-single days, to the point it's getting contagious.

[rdnkjdi]

BBR cut the off the ring signatures. Pruning the blockchain is something else and feathers get ruffled if you say the wrong thing. BBR and XMR anonymity should be similar but neither has been thoroughly tested.

ughhhh - I misused the terminology  

XMR is working on moving the blockchain out of memory and into a database. Once that is complete, the size is not that important. It won't be "small," but it is nothing current technology cannot handle.

I understand it's much MUCH less of an issue (downloading 4GB is better than something taking 4GB of ram.  And blockchain can grow to hundreds of GB's & the computer will still perform fine).

I'm not sure how much cost is involved storage wise.  But I still maintain that storage is a source of friction.  I'm about to pull numbers out of my ass and sound a little bit of a fool but maybe this will make sense to someone else.  

If 100,000 full nodes have Monero and the storage requirements are 20GB due to increased storage cost of the Cryptonote privacy implementation.  And 25% of the storage data winds up being needed for bandwidth each month then I can get an idea of what amazon would charge me for being a node.  This is just calculating storage + bandwidth costs.

The cost of 20GB storage + 5GB bandwidth = .24 a month.  Multiplied times 100,000 nodes - that's $24,000 a month in storage costs at Amazon prices.  As storage/usage goes up the cost to maintain the network will go up.

A 2GB blockchain + .5GB bandwidth = .03 per month.  Multiplied times 100,000 nodes - that's $3,000 a month.

I use this exercise just to point out the difference in resources to support blockchain sizes.

Maybe this point has been beat to death.  I STILL think storage (and bandwidth) issues are legitimate concerns.

Edit:  I realized there are only 7,500 bitcoin nodes.  So this probably doesn't even matter.  I stand corrected on the importance of blockchain size.

[btc-mike]

These are the downsides I see.  I

1 - The original Cryptonote/Bytecoin devs are likely attacking Monero (see blockchain fork which didn't require a 51% attack - but a deep understanding of sourcecode)

I agree.  I think surviving the attack so easily (without even forking to exclude the bad transactions) adds a LOT of confidence.

....

aminorex, that was a very weak post. i have come to expect more from you.

Getting tired by trolls I suppose. It's getting extremely toxic these days. Too toxic I may say. The more I see it, the less I understand the choice for XMR community to stay on bitcointalk. I know it's early, I know it's hard to make people migrate, I know it gather focus to post here. I know all of that but still... we're getting infected by FUD and trolls every-single days, to the point it's getting contagious.

Probably this.

BBR cut the off the ring signatures. Pruning the blockchain is something else and feathers get ruffled if you say the wrong thing. BBR and XMR anonymity should be similar but neither has been thoroughly tested.

ughhhh - I misused the terminology 

XMR is working on moving the blockchain out of memory and into a database. Once that is complete, the size is not that important. It won't be "small," but it is nothing current technology cannot handle.

I understand it's much MUCH less of an issue (downloading 4GB is better than something taking 4GB of ram.  And blockchain can grow to hundreds of GB's & the computer will still perform fine).
...
Maybe this point has been beat to death.  I STILL think storage (and bandwidth) issues are legitimate concerns.

I think the blockchain size MAY be an issue but I have taken a wait and see stance. I have seen (been involved in) many of those size arguments. XMR proponents say the expected blockchain size will fit on consumer grade storage expected to be out. That part concerns me a little but it is too soon to know for sure.

[rdnkjdi]

In light of BCX's 72 hour ultimatum and this thread - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=791366.0 for whatever it's worth.  I'm exiting XMR for the next few days.

I don't think he found some secret exploit.  I think he's just flexing his muscles and petting his ego.

(I know no one here cares what I think.  But if pool owners are making $200 a day for 25% of the Monero hashrate.  Simple economics make this a horrible bet if BCX is properly motivated.)

[Unbelive]

I wish i would make $200 a day. How much earn bytecoin pool owners that have 25% hashnet?