CrazyLoaf's CrazySteak(TM) High PoS Investment Journal

[Cor2]

About ORB: I have it for over half a year and am very happy with its rewards and retaining value since more than a year.
I saw your interest in ORBitcoin and your hesitation because it needs to be broken in small clumps (minimum 20 ORB) for best staking.
Please note that the ORB wallet takes care of maintaining block size between 25 and 50 after staking, because once it reaches 50 from
the interest (1 ORB) it will be broken into two inputs of half the size.

Say you want to do minimal work and feed blocks of size 49 to the wallet, so at the first time staking they will be 50 in size and break into two 25 size blocks and you create 5 addresses in your ORB wallet plus you enable "Custom change address" to be one of the existing
addresses in your wallet, to avoid that the wallet starts creating new temporary addresses, then every input can be broken into 6 chunks
in one step. To end up with 50 ORB chunks, you start with a 300 ORB chunk and that means that an 1800 chunk of ORB can be broken down in two steps, the second step needs to be executed 6 times for each of the 300 ORB chunks.
This process only needs to be done once and the wallet will maintain the input chunk size within limits (25-50 ORB). I did this after buying a significant amount (over 5k ORB) once and this was done pretty fast (less than half hour with learning curve).
For a while I religiously split blocks after staking to maintain them at 20 ORB exactly but now I let them grow and only occasionally check if I want to split the larger blocks that have recently staked (so their age is young and I do not impact the time to the next staking)

Letting the wallet rezise the blocks does not give the optimal 20 ORB for highest interest, but the larger blocks will stake faster so the effect on interest may be minimal.
Example when the block size is average 30 ORB and staking is only every 12 days (which is the current situation with the high 0.033 diff) then the interest from the 30 times staking per year leads to over 100% return on your wallet balance. (100% without compounded interest)

I have 12k ORB in my wallet and received over 40 ORB in the last 24h from PoS blocks.
This is perfectly in line with the over-100% growth per year.

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[CrazyLoaf]

Okay, some comments on both ORB and SUPER since people seem to keep bringing them up.

I don't like ORB for a few reasons:

- Market cap is too low. It's $50k. CAP is $55k. From a risk/reward perspective, CAP is the better pick.
- Volume feels lower. Every time I've checked it on Cryptsy, it seems to be below 0.1 BTC. I know it trades elsewhere, but according to CMC, it had $39 volume on Cryptsy and $0 on AllCoin. I've seen all the coins I mention in my portfolio having well over 1 BTC in volume some days.
- The block thing IS annoying. Say I want to buy 2.5% of ORB. That's roughly 40k - 50k ORB. I've tried to break blocks on a mere 4k and I had like a 30 second delay between sending the block to myself where I couldn't break it again. I've never had that in any other high PoS coin. I can break huge HYP, TEK, CAP, and HBN blocks in 5 mins or less.
- There was a staking bonanza where people got extra coins just because. I don't really like coins that have time-based stake changes (1 year x%, 2 year y%, etc.), nor do I like where coins randomly change stake based on the block. Staking should be constrained by the parameters and then demand decides what the rate is.
- The high PoS community doesn't mention ORB. If those investors don't want the coin, who will buy it?

The SUPER community seems "coin flavor of the month." They've dumped the coin to all hell over dumb crap like PoD. Price is in freefall. At the moment, the market cap is below completely dead Battlecoin, so maybe it's worth a play. But again, I would prefer a lot of other coins before SUPER if I wasn't speculating. 

[forbesmining]

I'm in the process of accumulating some Cap and also HYP. Not an easy task! Very little for sale, and a sizable gap between bid and ask.

[CrazyLoaf]

I'm in the process of accumulating some Cap and also HYP. Not an easy task! Very little for sale, and a sizable gap between bid and ask.

No doubt! Just compare the order books on any high PoS coin and a random coin and you can see the difference. Former darling MINT (which had 20% stake for the first year, but that's still not juicy enough) has the sell side clogged with orders.

HYP is super hard to buy, but you may be able to catch some sell offs with a buy wall. There's not even a full 1% up for sale at Poloniex: 0.75% of the market only Only about 1% of the coin has traded today.

CAP is very interesting. I originally got into it just because of Tranz, but the more I look at it, the cheaper it seems. Due to competing for stake, some people are getting reports of TEK paying 20% or less. CAP pays almost just as much as this, and has a good range of 15 days to 45 days for stake maturation.

Battlecoin (BCX) is trading at a higher market cap than CAP, and it's a dead coin with a poorly featured wallet, low stake, and a large number of coins outstanding!

Also, check out the rich list. The top 6 addresses hold 2M+, or roughly 33% of the coins outstanding. Could this have been the huge buy wall from before? I recall someone mentioning that it was trying to guzzle up 1/3 of the coins.

Finally, the stake is at an interesting rate and and the wait period is pretty anti-trader. It's almost a TEK lite Just looking at the # of coins and knowing that it has a more conservative emissions schedule than TEK could have at 40% stake and a similar or lower one at 20% and below, the price has only one way to go: UP! There are 2.3M TEKs and 6.2M CAPs, or 1.70x more CAPs.

Let's look at the market cap of TEK and try to back CAP into that. Let's just say TEK is at $200k market cap, or about 500 BTC. That's 21,739 sat. CAP would need to be 8,065 sat to meet that. Just ignoring market cap and taking the 1.70x multiple, CAPs are 12,787 sat. And all of these are super conservative. It's not like you can just go out and buy large chunks of these coins without moving that market.

[Cor2]

- Market cap is too low. It's $50k. CAP is $55k. From a risk/reward perspective, CAP is the better pick.
- The block thing IS annoying. Say I want to buy 2.5% of ORB. That's roughly 40k - 50k ORB. I've tried to break blocks on a mere 4k and I had like a 30 second delay between sending the block to myself where I couldn't break it again. I've never had that in any other high PoS coin. I can break huge HYP, TEK, CAP, and HBN blocks in 5 mins or less.
- There was a staking bonanza where people got extra coins just because. I don't really like coins that have time-based stake changes (1 year x%, 2 year y%, etc.), nor do I like where coins randomly change stake based on the block. Staking should be constrained by the parameters and then demand decides what the rate is.
- The high PoS community doesn't mention ORB. If those investors don't want the coin, who will buy it?

You are entitled to your opinion of course.
The fact that a coin is not very well known, does not mean that it has no potential.
As you are well aware, market cap is entire based on price. If price doubles (and it has been over 9k sat more than once)
the market cap suddenly is double, so then it is almost twice CAP...
The block thing is the same between different coins, so I do not understand why you should need to wait for one and not for the other,
in essence all should have a confirmation before splitting blocks up further, but that would make only a few minutes difference on something that needs to be done only once. Not a big deal to me, maybe it is to you. Does not seem a good reason to reject a coin that has been staking reliably without issues for over half a year and is more than a year old with solid support.
The exchanges have been slow in recent weeks, that is why you see low volume: everyone is keeping ORB in their wallet for staking.
The staking bonanza that you dislike was to fulfill an old promise from the original developer of ORB, so there was a reason to do this
"give-away" for a limited time with full support from the community. After that, the coin returned to the specified parameters.
Whether you like it or not - I think ORB has value and that is why I brought it up here to discuss its merits.
Thanks for giving your opinion.

I did diversify and buy into HYP just for the heck of it and have needed to split those into blocks also.
We'll see if that will bring the higher rewards - all depending on how well the value stays up as well as diff increase...

[Hilux74]

I think if you think about adoption by people outside the high stake fanclub Bottlecaps / CAPs has the most commercially marketable name and branding potential of the pack.  For that reason + Tranz at the reigns, I also agree it is currently significantly undervalued at ~0.0002.

Also as an aside I don't like the token mining period / POS only type coins like Hyperstake as someone has to have been aware at the right moment to have full advantage, so it is too easy for a handful of people to benefit by order of magnitudes above the subsequent waves.  I think the POW/POS format and slower distribution of HBN, CAPs and TEK to be more equitable across a wider time frame.

[CrazyLoaf]

CrazyLoaf's CrazySteak(TM) 9/25/14 Update

You may notice some changes on the chart below. Going to change by strategy/style a little, but chart first:

STAKE      NAME      BTC       COINS       AVG COST      CURRENT      VALUE      30-STAKE      ROI      PLACE
750%      HYP      7.00       599,560       0.00001168      0.00002749      16.48      10.14      135%      2
500%      TEK      7.70       45,657       0.00016865      0.00030022      13.71      4.11      78%      ?
200%      CAP      5.00       189,311       0.00002641      0.00002165      4.10      0.67      -18%      7
100%      HBN      8.85       150,818       0.00005868      0.00007983      12.04      0.72      36%      6

Current BTC invested is 28.55; Estimated Value is 46.33 based on last trade price; ROI is a blended 62% atm.

Now, I've gotten rid of a few columns to simply things since I'm not going to upload pics and all this when it looks pretty decent as is now. Also, I gave up on doing Stake4Charity, Stake4Steak, Autosavings, what have you. While I don't plan on hoarding my coins forever, the record keeping would be awful since I'd have to keep track of all these little sub 0.01 BTC movements. It just seemed like too much work, and the purpose of this is for fun

Now onto some coin by coin comments:

I don't know what happened with me on this one, but I was compelled to invest a LOT more than I had before. There's just something about that rich list that is addictive Also, I see HYP having a really active community going on, and it seems like it has some fresh high PoS coin buyers. It's still thinly traded as can be and less than 0.75% of all coins was for sale earlier today. However, it also is getting good volume. I was considering buying more TEK, but went with HYP.

I've pushed up my average buy price quite a bit from when I only had 1.6 BTC in the coin. I am still feeling really optimistic about this coin. New wallet is sexy as all hell. There's almost close to a constant 100 people in IRC. The marketing side of this coin is really cool and I think the IRC could eventually be a good hangout for all high PoS coins.

Bought a little bit more of this. There was a wall or two I was going to eat, but I bought HYP instead. I'm still liking TEK, especially with this recent run up to 30k sat! (P.S. Where'd that come from?). Another hard fork may be on the horizon. Hopefully some of the more recent features in high PoS coins can be ported over.

The last stake I had was 40%+, but currently the difficulty looks like it'll be doing around 20%. I still like TEK at 20%. Heck, Novacoin only pays like 3% and you have to wait 30 days for it AND there's a max reward of 10 per block. I think moving to a max block reward for TEK wouldn't be bad and would help spread out blocks automatically and keep wallets open versus opening once a month or so. I'm still liking TEK

I've talked myself into wanting more CAP. As I mentioned in an earlier post, there's like 33% of the coins held in the higher rich list addresses. I recall the buy wall and I think someone has a plan for this coin. Even if it's just a high PoS beastie, it's close to a TEK-lite to me with it's almost 20% stake and long-ish waiting period, but it also comes with one of the best devs in the business for free

I've also noticed it's very hard to buy coins for CAP. I've setup buy walls and I have some trickled to me, but I've almost always preferred to just eat some sell walls to get them into my wallet to start staking. At TEK's current 30k sat value, CAP is supremely cheap in comparison imo. It only has roughly 200% more coins, but the emission schedule going forward seems like it will be more conservative.

I've bought some more HBN since that darn rich list enticed me once again. Also, I remember seeing the order book close to 9k and wanted to help it along. I'll probably keep my eye on HBN and CAP and buy some more since I've had my fill on HYP atm. However, if TEK has a good stake sell-off, I may have to just buy more of it and CAP.

There's a new wallet in development and a hard fork upcoming for HBN. I'm really excited for these. One feature is a max block reward. I recall someone saying that some of the large wallets aren't staking. As a result, it doesn't make sense for them to just hop online a month or so later and hoard all the stakes. The final note I can think of is I could never get my address to confirm with the block explorer. I've tried signing it a few times in different ways, but it doesn't work.

Some Notes

Since I don't plan on selling stakes daily, I may also spread out my entries a little longer. These are quiet coins with serious people in them, so there isn't too much news at times. I saw some good comments earlier that I'll mention later. Also, I may go back and do some edits to earlier posts to make their formats a little cleaner

[mtwelve]

Whats the new wallet for HYP? I'm on version 1.0.5, is there a new one? If so, link please?

[CrazyLoaf]

Whats the new wallet for HYP? I'm on version 1.0.5, is there a new one? If so, link please?

https://github.com/presstab/HyperStake/releases/tag/v1.0.6

Here you go. The new theme is sleek and stylish

[CrazyLoaf]

In regards to Cor2, the issue I had with breaking blocks is that it continually gave errors if you tried to rapidly break down an ORB block. I quickly lost interest as a result. The rest still stands in regards to my opinion on ORB. It's different, but I think its stake parameters being fixed is not attractive since there isn't a trigger for market "demand" to change it as in NVCS based systems.

I think if you think about adoption by people outside the high stake fanclub Bottlecaps / CAPs has the most commercially marketable name and branding potential of the pack.  For that reason + Tranz at the reigns, I also agree it is currently significantly undervalued at ~0.0002.

Also as an aside I don't like the token mining period / POS only type coins like Hyperstake as someone has to have been aware at the right moment to have full advantage, so it is too easy for a handful of people to benefit by order of magnitudes above the subsequent waves.  I think the POW/POS format and slower distribution of HBN, CAPs and TEK to be more equitable across a wider time frame.

2 good points. CAP is indeed a good name. Actually, HYP, CAP, and HBN all have "fun" names that make them interesting to at least look at. TEK's is a little more generic, but at the same, it doesn't detract from the coin and there are some interesting ways branding and the like could go. While I don't think looking at use as a currency is important, I would actually be more apt to use something like "HoboNickels" versus "BlackCoin" in real life. I think the branding on a lot of these coins competing to be a defacto currency is a little weesh to be honest. Whatever you do, DON'T look at the BlackCoin music video. It's pretty lame.

CAP is especially undervalued now since, according to a recent Tranz post, so many people are staking that the rate is falling slightly to 170%-180%. That's awesome

Token mining period/PoS only coins are commonly attributed with pump and dump coins, i.e., almost every alt being released saying they're going to be the next BTC. HYP is a little different in that they forked off of TRK, so it's actually the first fork launch that I'm aware of off. As a result, a good 5M-10M of the coins are "dead" in that they aren't active on the HYP chain (exchange wallets, etc. from TRK).

I'm a little torn on PoS. On the one hand it makes a lot of sense for new coins since a pure PoW coin can easily be attacked since hash is so low. A blended system is intriguing since it allows people to generate the blockchain/protect the system in a variety of ways. I think PoS pioneer Peercoin still has PoW, so that could be a vote of confidence

Also, looking forward in a sort of tinfoil hat sort of way, what will happen to pure PoS when/if quantum computing arrives? It seems to me that a PoW system of quantum miners could better defend against attacks on the blockchain.

CAP and HBN are Scrypt mineable and TEK is SHA-256. A lot of early miners don't have machines to compete with those of today, but maybe they still enjoy the mining process, but not necessarily the check out every new shitcoin, make sure you don't get a zero day exploit, dump before everyone else, etc. process. If they've already ROI'ed on their machines, why not relax and point them to these oldie high PoS coins and hold the earnings? Seems like a win-win to me

[Zer0Sum]

Nice to see the TokyoGhetto torch passes to such a quality thread.

It's just great the way you are giving HARD NUMBERS for these quality investment coins...
Because they can take a few months to understand and trade/stake effectively.

 

[CrazyLoaf]

Nice to see the TokyoGhetto torch passes to such a quality thread.

It's just great the way you are giving HARD NUMBERS for these quality investment coins...
Because they can take a few months to understand and trade/stake effectively.

 

Thanks It's nice I can actually give some hard numbers in these. Since these high PoS embrace the whole "math is money" angle that makes Bitcoin so cool, it lends itself to at least some numeric analysis.

On the other hand, the usual way of valuing alts is like this:

Well CrapCoin pumped to X and is now on like number 500 on coinmarketcap. BullshitCoin seems similar, so maybe it can pump to X +- 25% and then die off too. Let me pump and dump before everyone else does Whoops, I mean, let me post everywhere on BTC Talk in other coin's threads about this "great investment opportunity" I found in BullshitCoin. Yeah, that's it

[presstab]

I think if you think about adoption by people outside the high stake fanclub Bottlecaps / CAPs has the most commercially marketable name and branding potential of the pack.  For that reason + Tranz at the reigns, I also agree it is currently significantly undervalued at ~0.0002.

Also as an aside I don't like the token mining period / POS only type coins like Hyperstake as someone has to have been aware at the right moment to have full advantage, so it is too easy for a handful of people to benefit by order of magnitudes above the subsequent waves.  I think the POW/POS format and slower distribution of HBN, CAPs and TEK to be more equitable across a wider time frame.

I can completely understand this view, and its one of the reasons that CrazyLoaf wasn't wild about Orb.

But one other thing to keep in mind is security of the chain. For these coins you need to sustain a high PoW hash rate to be only moderately safe from attack. Remember the whole episode at Mintcoin that pushed them to eliminate PoW altogether?  So I am completely happy having HYP PoS only, and would have it no other way. Not only is it safer, but it also gets rid of the ability to mine and instadump.  For HYP, you need to either buy and dump, or buy-stake-dump. I like that model quite a lot, it seems to have good traction in the market so far on the supply side.

Concerning the short PoW period. Yes there were some lucky people that mined and now are what I call "legacies", or those leftover from truckcoin (the coin that HYP forked off of).  Unfortunately for me, and most of the people high up on the rich list, we had to buy our way into HYP because the mining period had already ended.

CrazyLoaf good posts!  And yes I have seen you creeping up the rich list, you are either staking like a mad man or buying decent blocks. Hell, you have a higher balance than david latapie now  

PS: one other point that is not really discussed as much here, or really anywhere. HYP has about 6 devs working on it at the moment, including me, not to mention the friendly exchange of new code between HBN and HYP, I think this will really help the HYP infrastructure over the long term, but probably doesn't impact pricing much.

[digitalindustry]

I think if you think about adoption by people outside the high stake fanclub Bottlecaps / CAPs has the most commercially marketable name and branding potential of the pack.  For that reason + Tranz at the reigns, I also agree it is currently significantly undervalued at ~0.0002.

Also as an aside I don't like the token mining period / POS only type coins like Hyperstake as someone has to have been aware at the right moment to have full advantage, so it is too easy for a handful of people to benefit by order of magnitudes above the subsequent waves.  I think the POW/POS format and slower distribution of HBN, CAPs and TEK to be more equitable across a wider time frame.

+1

the only viable PoS system are one in which the users know there was at least a significant chance of PoW spread

HBN and Caps where both out in a time where Scrypt PoW was not a total monopoly and also it mostly ignored these systems.

these and other crypto are listed in my group under "accidents"  and can be viable, as long as other fundamental characteristics fall in place.

[Cor2]

But one other thing to keep in mind is security of the chain. For these coins you need to sustain a high PoW hash rate to be only moderately safe from attack. Remember the whole episode at Mintcoin that pushed them to eliminate PoW altogether?  So I am completely happy having HYP PoS only, and would have it no other way. Not only is it safer, but it also gets rid of the ability to mine and instadump.  For HYP, you need to either buy and dump, or buy-stake-dump. I like that model quite a lot, it seems to have good traction in the market so far on the supply side.

Agree that security of any coin is a concern.
ORB has hybrid PoW/PoS. Only 1/3 of the blocks are PoW (target 3 min block period) while 2/3 are PoS (target 1.5 min) for an overall 1 min block period. What I read is that a hybrid is safer than a pure PoS or PoW, so I am surprised that you position the PoS of a coin like HYP as more secure than for example ORB.
BTW, Peercoin was mentionedd before. ORB is based on Peercoin and released shortly after. As far as I know, ORB was the first hybrid
PoW/PoS that gave block rewards for both, just FYI.
I am not trying to force anyone onto ORB, just trying to set the record straight as ORB promotion has been severely lacking and as a
result almost nobody knows about or understands this coin, except a small circle. And since most of them hang out on CCT, the
BCT thread for ORB is almost deserted and it may seem the coin has little interest, but I can tell from seeing what is being discussed
(I am not related to ORB or its devs, just holder and an involved user / small investor) that there is plenty activity.
Good to see that HYP also has an active team and is sharing resources with other coins. That is the best way to spread quality.
Maybe time to buy some more - my low buy offer has still not hit yet even though the price has come down from my buying spree ;-)

[CrazyLoaf]

the only viable PoS system are one in which the users know there was at least a significant chance of PoW spread

HBN and Caps where both out in a time where Scrypt PoW was not a total monopoly and also it mostly ignored these systems.

these and other crypto are listed in my group under "accidents"  and can be viable, as long as other fundamental characteristics fall in place.

This is where high PoS comes into play. Even in the case of HYP, where there isn't mining, it is clear that there is a good amount of coin churning and distribution. For the last few days that I've checked, Poloniex volume alone has been around 1% of total coins. The very nature of the coins, and the desire at times to sell some stake for reasons such as consumption and investment, makes it where distribution is much fairer than other coins.

Let's compare to the typical alt. There's a super short mining period. Insiders mine/buy most the coins and hold. The price pumps up. When it's at a sufficient level, there are waves of ragedumps where insiders and early buyers sell their entire coin stash. Then the winners move on to the next coin and do it again.

High PoS is different. While for trading reasons you may sell out your whole stash, in most cases, you sell over time, and perhaps never touching your principal level that you want to keep. DRK pumped over the idea of masternodes. In reality, high PoS did this earlier, at least from an investment perspective. You "lock" the coins, generate stake, and can profit from the stake. However, these nodes aren't mere mixers, but minting/mining masternodes that distribute new coins to the economy.

[CrazyLoaf]

CrazyLoaf good posts!  And yes I have seen you creeping up the rich list, you are either staking like a mad man or buying decent blocks. Hell, you have a higher balance than david latapie now  

PS: one other point that is not really discussed as much here, or really anywhere. HYP has about 6 devs working on it at the moment, including me, not to mention the friendly exchange of new code between HBN and HYP, I think this will really help the HYP infrastructure over the long term, but probably doesn't impact pricing much.

Yes, I have been buying HYP. I'm coming for your spot next

6 devs! So Tranz is one of those rare unicorn devs that have the programming power of 10, so that means at least 16 devs working on high PoS. And these aren't copy-paste kiddy coders either. I'm really impressed with the complexity of keeping high PoS coins running well in a world where other "devs" just ctrl+c, ctrl+v and don't know what they're doing.

So we're building a high PoS HQ near the BTC castle right? Where HYP, TEK, CAP, & HBN think tanks can operate? Throw in PHS too since it's an oldie but a goodie (another 1+ year old high-ish PoS coin)

[presstab]

CrazyLoaf good posts!  And yes I have seen you creeping up the rich list, you are either staking like a mad man or buying decent blocks. Hell, you have a higher balance than david latapie now  

PS: one other point that is not really discussed as much here, or really anywhere. HYP has about 6 devs working on it at the moment, including me, not to mention the friendly exchange of new code between HBN and HYP, I think this will really help the HYP infrastructure over the long term, but probably doesn't impact pricing much.

Yes, I have been buying HYP. I'm coming for your spot next

6 devs! So Tranz is one of those rare unicorn devs that have the programming power of 10, so that means at least 16 devs working on high PoS. And these aren't copy-paste kiddy coders either. I'm really impressed with the complexity of keeping high PoS coins running well in a world where other "devs" just ctrl+c, ctrl+v and don't know what they're doing.

So we're building a high PoS HQ near the BTC castle right? Where HYP, TEK, CAP, & HBN think tanks can operate? Throw in PHS too since it's an oldie but a goodie (another 1+ year old high-ish PoS coin)

Yes Tranz is honestly the best dev that I actually know.  Of course you could argue that SunnyKing is a better PoS dev, because of course he invented PoS, but seriously Tranz does amazing work. The devs at HYP, including me, are mostly there to learn and have fun.  Hopefully we will get to Tranz status some day, but by that time Tranz will be to SunnyKing/Satoshi status.

[ReydeApio]

I'm a big fan of CAP. Noticed that of the top 20 addresses 5 are not staking; accounting for approximately 10% of the supply of Bottlecaps. 

Address                     Balance

• Wallet #6
  F2Z6px7dPmkt7VdgLcA7UypYXaJXg2aRve   257994.875
• Wallet #9
  F4bq3JLMpfX3kwW6qTLxKQL3Kua2UZ1FEy   144830.453125
• Wallet #10
  Et48kpSrK9pJHpfstxhar4MgX2ZGGrRvv3   113049.34375
• Wallet #19
  EhVCWZepDRAFTX8V3SdUgNjweUUaGjL95J   56716.824219
• Wallet #20
  EvGd2iCR3SuBNDGrtoaabmZTkdFktccbTX   54249.183594

I agree that it's frustrating getting buys filled but I for one, will be sending 50% of stake back to the market. Spreading the Bottlecaps around, being the change I want to see in the world...blah, blah, blah.

[forbesmining]

^^^^ Good! I hope to buy the CAP you spread around