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Author Topic: Really basic question on wallets / exchange  (Read 1568 times)
bctnewb (OP)
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September 15, 2014, 02:53:28 PM
 #1

Hi,

I'm completely new to this so apologies for the basicness of these questions. This is my understanding so far...

  • So as far as I can tell the "wallet" sits on my PC with my bitcoins in and is secure.
  • I can accept money into and pay money out of my wallet directly to/from someone else.
  • If I want to 'buy' bitcoins with my local currency then I need to do this via an exchange.

Assuming that my understanding is correct how am I affected if an exchange goes bust or shuts down?  For example, I read about the MtGox thing where apparently a lot of bitcoins went missing or were stolen or whatever - but basically people got screwed out of their bitcoins.  So if an exchange is just a place to exchange bitcoins with other currencies how did people lose their money?  I would assume that once the transaction had gone through the bitcoins would be in the peoples wallets so they would be safe...?  Or were people somehow 'storing' bitcoins at the exchange? Or did the people that lost money just happened to be in the middle of the transaction when MtGox shutdown (so they took the cash, but didn't send the bitcoins)?

I just want to try and understand how they lost the bitcoins when that happened as, from my basic understanding, it doesn't seem to make any sense?

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September 15, 2014, 04:00:18 PM
 #2

Hi,

I'm completely new to this so apologies for the basicness of these questions. This is my understanding so far...

  • So as far as I can tell the "wallet" sits on my PC with my bitcoins in and is secure.
  • I can accept money into and pay money out of my wallet directly to/from someone else.
  • If I want to 'buy' bitcoins with my local currency then I need to do this via an exchange.

Assuming that my understanding is correct how am I affected if an exchange goes bust or shuts down?  For example, I read about the MtGox thing where apparently a lot of bitcoins went missing or were stolen or whatever - but basically people got screwed out of their bitcoins.  So if an exchange is just a place to exchange bitcoins with other currencies how did people lose their money?  I would assume that once the transaction had gone through the bitcoins would be in the peoples wallets so they would be safe...?  Or were people somehow 'storing' bitcoins at the exchange? Or did the people that lost money just happened to be in the middle of the transaction when MtGox shutdown (so they took the cash, but didn't send the bitcoins)?

I just want to try and understand how they lost the bitcoins when that happened as, from my basic understanding, it doesn't seem to make any sense?

People left their coins on MtGox because they were stupid. They had 0% control of their coins, so they lost them.
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September 15, 2014, 04:26:25 PM
 #3

So as far as I can tell the "wallet" sits on my PC with my bitcoins in and is secure.

Not if your PC is infected with malware or is hacked.

Or were people somehow 'storing' bitcoins at the exchange?

Exactly. Some people found it so convenient to use mtgox (or any other exchanges) as their wallet.
They trusted the site would keep the bitcoin safe and it turned out to be a big mistake.


DannyHamilton
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September 15, 2014, 04:27:41 PM
 #4

Hi,

I'm completely new to this so apologies for the basicness of these questions. This is my understanding so far...

  • So as far as I can tell the "wallet" sits on my PC with my bitcoins in and is secure.

For a newbie, this is a good way to think of it.

In reality, what your wallet stores is "private keys" that act as passwords that allow you permission to transfer control of bitcoins to someone else.  As long as you have access to those private keys (through your wallet or otherwise) you have the necessary resources to control your bitcoins.  If anyone else gets access to those private keys, then they will have the ability to take/spend your bitcoins.  If those private keys are permanently lost, then the bitcoins will never again be spendable.

  • I can accept money into and pay money out of my wallet directly to/from someone else.

Correct.

  • If I want to 'buy' bitcoins with my local currency then I need to do this via an exchange.

This is one of the more common ways to exchange local currency for bitcoins.  Another method is to find someone locally who has bitcoins and wants local currency.  You can then meet up with them and give them some of your local currency in exchange for some of their bitcoins.  A good place to find local people that wish to engage in such an exchange is localbitcoins.com

Assuming that my understanding is correct how am I affected if an exchange goes bust or shuts down?

You would no longer be able to use the exchange to convert your local currency to bitcoins, or your bitcoins to local currency.  If you had sent any of your local currency or bitcoins to the exchange and had not yet received some of the local currency or bitcoins back, then it might be difficulty to recover your funds.

For example, I read about the MtGox thing where apparently a lot of bitcoins went missing or were stolen or whatever - but basically people got screwed out of their bitcoins.  So if an exchange is just a place to exchange bitcoins with other currencies how did people lose their money?  I would assume that once the transaction had gone through the bitcoins would be in the peoples wallets so they would be safe...?  Or were people somehow 'storing' bitcoins at the exchange? Or did the people that lost money just happened to be in the middle of the transaction when MtGox shutdown (so they took the cash, but didn't send the bitcoins)?

I just want to try and understand how they lost the bitcoins when that happened as, from my basic understanding, it doesn't seem to make any sense?

Lets use the 'purchase' of bitcoins as an example.

First you send some of your local currency to the exchange.

Once the exchange confirms that they have received the currency from you, and that the transaction sending the local currency is not reversible, they display on their website when you log in a balance of your local currency available for you to exchange.

You then add an order to the order book requesting an amount of bitcoins in exchange for an amount of your local currency.

The exchange compares your order to other orders on the order book from other users that request an amount of your local currency in exchange for an amount of their bitcoins.  If the exchange finds a match, they update your "account" with them to indicate the now reduced amount of your local currency that you have available for you to exchange and to indicate a now increased amount of bitcoins that you have available for you to exchange.

At this time, the bitcoins are still under the control of the exchange.  They still "own" the bitcoins.  You just have an indication on their website that they are allowing you control of that amount of bitcoins.  You can:

  • Exchange those bitcoins for some form of local currency through another order, updating your account with them to the new amount
  • Request that the exchange now send those bitcoins directly to your wallet to put them under your complete control
  • Request that the exchange send those bitcoins to someone else on your behalf

Because it was possible to request that the bitcoins be sent directly to someone else, many people found that they could just use their account at MtGox as a sort of "wallet".  They simply trusted that MtGox would always be there and would always honor their request.  This meant that (as long as they trusted MtGox completely) they didn't need to install any wallet software, or concern themselves with securing their wallet against loss.

Additionally, since it is only possible to place an order onto the order book for bitcoins or currency that the exchange has complete control of, anyone who wanted to try and profit by quickly "buying" bitcoins anytime the exchange rate got a bit low and then quickly "selling" those bitcoins anytime the exchange rate increased a bit would have to leave the bitcoins and local currency under the control of the exchange.  They would not be able to withdraw the funds back to their own bank account (for local currency) or bitcoin wallet (for bitcoins), because it would take to long for the exchange to confirm that they irreversibly had control of the funds to be able to send them back and take advantage of small changes throughout the day.
bctnewb (OP)
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September 16, 2014, 06:46:21 AM
 #5

Quote
The exchange compares your order to other orders on the order book from other users that request an amount of your local currency in exchange for an amount of their bitcoins.  If the exchange finds a match, they update your "account" with them to indicate the now reduced amount of your local currency that you have available for you to exchange and to indicate a now increased amount of bitcoins that you have available for you to exchange.
So if I'm just 'buying' bitcoins this is potentially the only dodgy part? ie. if the exchange goes bust while I wait for my order to be matched.  Can this take a while as it looks for a match, or is it basically like trading shares where there's pretty much always someone selling (or the exchange acts like a marketmaker, and has a certain number itself to trade with?)
DannyHamilton
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September 16, 2014, 11:11:23 AM
 #6

Quote
The exchange compares your order to other orders on the order book from other users that request an amount of your local currency in exchange for an amount of their bitcoins.  If the exchange finds a match, they update your "account" with them to indicate the now reduced amount of your local currency that you have available for you to exchange and to indicate a now increased amount of bitcoins that you have available for you to exchange.
So if I'm just 'buying' bitcoins this is potentially the only dodgy part? ie. if the exchange goes bust while I wait for my order to be matched.  Can this take a while as it looks for a match, or is it basically like trading shares where there's pretty much always someone selling (or the exchange acts like a marketmaker, and has a certain number itself to trade with?)

It depends on the exchange.

Coinbase is a marketmaker.  They are selling their bitcoins directly to the users, and buying the bitcoins from the users.

BitStamp and BTC-E are not openly marketmakers (although it is impossible to know if they are doing so secretly).  All exchanges at those websites are theoretically with other buyers and sellers.  They both have deep enough order books to handle the volume of their typical user, but you could run into an issue if you try to buy (or sell) a huge amount.

On any of the exchanges, the order will most likely be matched in seconds.  After the order is matched, the bitcoins are still under the control of the exchange, they just update the total that they display on your "account" when you log in.  You then need to request that those bitcoins be sent to the wallet you are running elsewhere. Most exchanges will batch together multiple requests to send bitcoins in order to save on transaction costs.  Therefore, it could take several minutes after the request before the bitcoins are actually sent.

So, your risk duration is:

  • Transfer of your local currency to the exchange (could take a few days)
  • Log back in to place the order (time depending on your availability to access the site)
  • Order is filled (typically less than a few seconds)
  • Request that the bitcoins be sent to your wallet (up to 30 minutes depending on which exchange you used)
Rubber Ducky
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September 16, 2014, 04:18:12 PM
 #7

Most bitcoins are stored on exchanges. People with desktop wallets are in the minority. I imagine most bitcoiners don't even know that desktop wallets exist. They think the exchange is the wallet. These people do not frequent this forum. These are the lessons we learnt from the Gox collapse.
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September 16, 2014, 04:30:08 PM
 #8

IF you buy through an exchange, withdraw the coins and store them in your wallet (do not leave them sitting in the exchange). If you are day trading or something, then you have to risk it if you do not want to miss big gains (ups and downs happen too fast, this mean by the time you send your BTC from your wallet to the exchange, the party would be over). But I think you arent interested in this and you want to just hold, so yeah, buy withdraw and hold.

You can also use LocalBitcoins.

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September 16, 2014, 05:14:01 PM
 #9

IF you buy through an exchange, withdraw the coins and store them in your wallet (do not leave them sitting in the exchange). If you are day trading or something, then you have to risk it if you do not want to miss big gains (ups and downs happen too fast, this mean by the time you send your BTC from your wallet to the exchange, the party would be over). But I think you arent interested in this and you want to just hold, so yeah, buy withdraw and hold.

You can also use LocalBitcoins.

All of this makes sense when the bitcoin price is going up but these days it's going down.

What you should do is hold off on buying. Buy when the price has bottomed out. You'll know when that's happened when it stops going down and starts going up again and keeps going up. That's when you buy.

If you've already bought then sell it and wait for the above to buy back in.
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September 16, 2014, 06:05:27 PM
 #10

The moral of the story is, never leave your money/Bitcoins where you're not the sole owner/holder and don't have control of your private keys.

You trade on an exchange, but you never store your entire account on it.  Always good practice to withdraw funds to your cold/offline wallet, at least this way you have control and power over your private keys.

CharityAuction
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September 17, 2014, 02:25:55 AM
 #11

is IOU in USD is safe on an exchange?
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September 17, 2014, 02:39:23 AM
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So, your risk duration is:

  • Transfer of your local currency to the exchange (could take a few days)
  • Log back in to place the order (time depending on your availability to access the site)
  • Order is filled (typically less than a few seconds)
  • Request that the bitcoins be sent to your wallet (up to 30 minutes depending on which exchange you used)

Or he can arrange a peer-to-peer trade on the currency section and use a highly trusted escrow service provider.
He still need to trust that escrow won't vanish before the trade is completed though.

bctnewb (OP)
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September 18, 2014, 12:25:57 PM
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Any thoughts on which is a reliable exchange either based in the UK, or that is happy to accept GBP?
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September 18, 2014, 12:40:59 PM
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Any thoughts on which is a reliable exchange either based in the UK, or that is happy to accept GBP?

Not sure about pounds, but euros for sure, and probably one of the 3 biggest exchanges:

https://www.bitstamp.net/

Should be relatively easy to open an account with them for traders on the other side of the pond.

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