KanoPool since 2014 🐈 - PPLNS and Solo 0.5% fee - Worldwide - 2435 blocks

[kano]

Well on the maths side - I'll compare them so it may make a little sense

A PPS pool (and when I say PPS I do ONLY mean a true PPS) pays you a fixed amount (don't forget to remove the fee).
So certainly with renting and pointing it at a PPS pool, you must be paying less for renting, than the PPS pool's stated payout.
Simple to compare the cost vs the payout and you clearly win or lose based on that.

--

A PPLNS pool will have an average expected reward (here it's 98.7% PPS)
Pool luck history will show some other value (close to or distant from that)
I have related numbers on the Blocks page on the web site.

But PPLNS is based on block finding (i.e. it reflects what you are actually doing)
When the pool does something good for bitcoin, we all get a reward.
If the pool doesn't find a block, we don't get a reward.
Thus it is the luck of block finding that determines your reward.
You can't guess that in advance and be guaranteed to positively affect your reward, no matter what anyone tells you.
So the simple answer on any such pool (which also includes slush) - it's luck that decides if your rental will make more or less than PPS.

However, from a statistical point of view ...
The longer you rent, the lower your expected variance will be.
This means you should expected to push closer to the expected reward (but still would be expected to be above or below it)

The shorter you rent, the higher your expected variance will be.
This means you could vary much further from the expected reward (positive or negative)

--

Aside: ignore CPPSRB - that's even worse than PPS
It has an upper limit below 100% PPS ... but that's the absolute limit ... what you get can be anywhere from that or lower (never above)
... and the only pool using it spends a LOT of time working on stale work and also gives you bad work (empty blocks) every block change even though >90% of those empty blocks are slower than good work here.

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[DrHaribo]

Sometimes you win and sometimes you loose. Guess it's like rolling the dice at that point. I understand that scenario very well, but not sure I get the impact of renting on a PPLNS share.

That's how it is with PPLNS too. If the pool is lucky you get a high payout, if the pool is unlucky at the time then you get a low payout.

Since you are probably paying more than the rented mining is expected to generate on average, you have a less than 50% chance to make a profit.

I think Ghash pays for the shifts you contribute shares for a particular block, so if you rent and contribute to all shifts in a protocolar block and that block is under better then 100% luck, and your paying below .0101 for the hash, then you make coin, again my simple interpretation of the way it would work.

What you describe is the proportional reward system (except that those don't use shifts). It is vulnerable to pool hopping, where pool hoppers can rip off the other miners in the pool. Very few pools use proportional anymore (mostly alt coin pools). Ghash uses PPLNS.

PPLNS means Pay Per Last N Shares. A specific amount of work gets paid each time. The point is to not be vulnerable to pool hopping by making it impossible to predict future payouts.

You still get high payouts when the pool is lucky of course. The same work can get paid multiple times with PPLNS.

[kano]

An update from me on the Empty Blocks issue:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1085800.msg11681429#msg11681429

[hurricandave]

BBBBLLLOOOOCCCKKKK!!!! AND CONFIRMED

[PPOC]

Sometimes you win and sometimes you loose. Guess it's like rolling the dice at that point. I understand that scenario very well, but not sure I get the impact of renting on a PPLNS share.

That's how it is with PPLNS too. If the pool is lucky you get a high payout, if the pool is unlucky at the time then you get a low payout.

Since you are probably paying more than the rented mining is expected to generate on average, you have a less than 50% chance to make a profit.

I think Ghash pays for the shifts you contribute shares for a particular block, so if you rent and contribute to all shifts in a protocolar block and that block is under better then 100% luck, and your paying below .0101 for the hash, then you make coin, again my simple interpretation of the way it would work.

What you describe is the proportional reward system (except that those don't use shifts). It is vulnerable to pool hopping, where pool hoppers can rip off the other miners in the pool. Very few pools use proportional anymore (mostly alt coin pools). Ghash uses PPLNS.

PPLNS means Pay Per Last N Shares. A specific amount of work gets paid each time. The point is to not be vulnerable to pool hopping by making it impossible to predict future payouts.

You still get high payouts when the pool is lucky of course. The same work can get paid multiple times with PPLNS.

Thanks, that helps a lot. I'll have to experiment a bit and see if its worth it, I suspect if you can get the hash for .0095 to .0098 and the poll is at least around 100% luck during that time then yes.

[aarons6]

Sometimes you win and sometimes you loose. Guess it's like rolling the dice at that point. I understand that scenario very well, but not sure I get the impact of renting on a PPLNS share.

That's how it is with PPLNS too. If the pool is lucky you get a high payout, if the pool is unlucky at the time then you get a low payout.

Since you are probably paying more than the rented mining is expected to generate on average, you have a less than 50% chance to make a profit.

I think Ghash pays for the shifts you contribute shares for a particular block, so if you rent and contribute to all shifts in a protocolar block and that block is under better then 100% luck, and your paying below .0101 for the hash, then you make coin, again my simple interpretation of the way it would work.

What you describe is the proportional reward system (except that those don't use shifts). It is vulnerable to pool hopping, where pool hoppers can rip off the other miners in the pool. Very few pools use proportional anymore (mostly alt coin pools). Ghash uses PPLNS.

PPLNS means Pay Per Last N Shares. A specific amount of work gets paid each time. The point is to not be vulnerable to pool hopping by making it impossible to predict future payouts.

You still get high payouts when the pool is lucky of course. The same work can get paid multiple times with PPLNS.

Thanks, that helps a lot. I'll have to experiment a bit and see if its worth it, I suspect if you can get the hash for .0095 to .0098 and the poll is at least around 100% luck during that time then yes.

its a huge gamble tho.. you also have to account for the fees..
most people that rent hash put it on the solo pool if they want to gamble, or a pps pool for a sure profit.

[WBF1]

Aside: ignore CPPSRB - that's even worse than PPS
It has an upper limit below 100% PPS ... but that's the absolute limit ... what you get can be anywhere from that or lower (never above)

When I realized this, I moved away from CPPSRB... stated more simply, with CPPSRB, you will NEVER make more than 100%-fee over any time frame. With PPLNS, you can make more than 100% over a limited time frame. Put even more simply...

- Under PPLNS if the pool does well (luck wise) over any given time frame, you will also do well (payout wise). Also if the pool does poorly (luck wise) over any given time frame, you will do poorly (payout wise).

- Under CPPSRB, if the pool does well (luck wise) over any given time frame you will simply get paid shelved shares/back pay, but never more than 100%. If the pool does poorly (luck wise) over any given time frame, you will do poorly (payout wise) until the pool has better luck, then you might be "made whole" (in terms of the amt you are owed based on comparison to pure PPS). I believe that theorhetically if a CPPSRB pool has better luck than 100% over its lifetime, then the result of that good luck goes to the pool operator. That's how PPS works anyway.

On a long enough time frame or with enough hashrate (any technical issues notwithstanding), PPLNS (and really all payout calculations) will be expected to trend closer to 100% minus fee. This includes CPPSRB but it will only from approach from below 100%.

For an analogy, think of it like golf. Hitting a block at 100% expected difficulty is like shooting par. With CPPSRB you can shoot lower than par, but you will never be rewarded for it. If you shoot higher than par, you are penalized for it. With PPS you will always be rewarded at par-level no matter what you shoot. With most other payout calculations, you are rewarded for shooting lower than par and penalized for shooting higher than par.

Sorry for getting so OT with this, but hopefully it helps anyone trying to figure out these payout calculations. The real question you must ask yourself is "Do I feel lucky?" ... Well, do ya, punk?

[PPOC]

Kano, wanted to see how hard it would be to setup an email notification when a block is found, or shortly after that includes something like Ghash does. Would be nice to see so your not checking the stats page several times a day. Example below

Hello Miner

We have solved the block #354533 (25.2432 BTC) in 12 hours at 13783.91 Th/s and done 140637624683 total work.
Your shares: 86401760/25000048254 (0.35%)
Payout: 0.08724205 BTC

On that note, how about also getting an email when a worker has not submitted shares for say 5 or 10 minutes, that would be nice to get alerted from the pool. Not sure how much coding this would be but just wanted to put it out there. Maybe have a place to enter an alert email address which is different then your account email, so one can enter a SMS email address to get txt vs emails.

Thanks in advance!

[Ecnad]

Kano, wanted to see how hard it would be to setup an email notification when a block is found, or shortly after that includes something like Ghash does. Would be nice to see so your not checking the stats page several times a day. Example below

Hello Miner

We have solved the block #354533 (25.2432 BTC) in 12 hours at 13783.91 Th/s and done 140637624683 total work.
Your shares: 86401760/25000048254 (0.35%)
Payout: 0.08724205 BTC

On that note, how about also getting an email when a worker has not submitted shares for say 5 or 10 minutes, that would be nice to get alerted from the pool. Not sure how much coding this would be but just wanted to put it out there. Maybe have a place to enter an alert email address which is different then your account email, so one can enter a SMS email address to get txt vs emails.

Thanks in advance!

Like both of his ideas!

[kano]

Kano, wanted to see how hard it would be to setup an email notification when a block is found, or shortly after that includes something like Ghash does. Would be nice to see so your not checking the stats page several times a day. Example below

Hello Miner

We have solved the block #354533 (25.2432 BTC) in 12 hours at 13783.91 Th/s and done 140637624683 total work.
Your shares: 86401760/25000048254 (0.35%)
Payout: 0.08724205 BTC

On that note, how about also getting an email when a worker has not submitted shares for say 5 or 10 minutes, that would be nice to get alerted from the pool. Not sure how much coding this would be but just wanted to put it out there. Maybe have a place to enter an alert email address which is different then your account email, so one can enter a SMS email address to get txt vs emails.

Thanks in advance!

Well there is a web site already that will send you block notification of the pool.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=789369.msg10261674#msg10261674

And one (or more?) people created apps to do that also.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=789369.msg11091187#msg11091187

I'm not sure if either of them have idle worker notifications, but the pool API includes when the last share was submitted for each worker in the API "work" reply.

Block notifications and idle notifications are on the todo list, but I've avoided doing them so far for a reason.
The main issue is that they represent bulk email.
In the last few years it's become ever so easy to have an email server blacklisted due to sending out email and then it can be up to days to clear it up and remove it from the blacklistings.
The worst example of that is yahoo that doesn't have a way of removing a blacklisting - my mail server was blacklisted there once due to someone who uses my mail servers getting a virus and sending out spam - once we tracked it down and stopped it, I of course had to then remove a bunch of blacklistings - but there was no option to do that with yahoo and I ended up telling everyone who uses the mail server that until further notice assume you can't send email to anyone on yahoo - which IMO was not really that big an issue since yahoo isn't very big any more - but still annoying.

Try the above (links) and send them a donation if they can do what you want - or ask them to add a "lastshare" notification
Everyone has a smartphone these days ... so the App would probably be your best solution if it can do both.
I'll PM them both a link to this message also.

[TheOneJester]

Kano, wanted to see how hard it would be to setup an email notification when a block is found, or shortly after that includes something like Ghash does. Would be nice to see so your not checking the stats page several times a day. Example below

Hello Miner

We have solved the block #354533 (25.2432 BTC) in 12 hours at 13783.91 Th/s and done 140637624683 total work.
Your shares: 86401760/25000048254 (0.35%)
Payout: 0.08724205 BTC

On that note, how about also getting an email when a worker has not submitted shares for say 5 or 10 minutes, that would be nice to get alerted from the pool. Not sure how much coding this would be but just wanted to put it out there. Maybe have a place to enter an alert email address which is different then your account email, so one can enter a SMS email address to get txt vs emails.

Thanks in advance!

Well there is a web site already that will send you block notification of the pool.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=789369.msg10261674#msg10261674

And one (or more?) people created apps to do that also.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=789369.msg11091187#msg11091187

I'm not sure if either of them have idle worker notifications, but the pool API includes when the last share was submitted for each worker in the API "work" reply.

Block notifications and idle notifications are on the todo list, but I've avoided doing them so far for a reason.
The main issue is that they represent bulk email.
In the last few years it's become ever so easy to have an email server blacklisted due to sending out email and then it can be up to days to clear it up and remove it from the blacklistings.
The worst example of that is yahoo that doesn't have a way of removing a blacklisting - my mail server was blacklisted there once due to someone who uses my mail servers getting a virus and sending out spam - once we tracked it down and stopped it, I of course had to then remove a bunch of blacklistings - but there was no option to do that with yahoo and I ended up telling everyone who uses the mail server that until further notice assume you can't send email to anyone on yahoo - which IMO was not really that big an issue since yahoo isn't very big any more - but still annoying.

Try the above (links) and send them a donation if they can do what you want - or ask them to add a "lastshare" notification
Everyone has a smartphone these days ... so the App would probably be your best solution if it can do both.
I'll PM them both a link to this message also.

Hi there!

I am the creator of the Android App: CK Pool Stats (Kano)

The app can currently notify you if a block has been found.
The app can also notify you if your hashing speeds has dropped below a certain amount.

I have been very busy with real life and there are more features coming! Just much much slower, especially since the app has been working as intended.
Let me know if you have any questions or feature requests, I'll try to push them out when I have more free time on my hands!

[kano]

I added a comment about the App to the opening post so I can point people there

Payout 362026 sent
9fb87fdd028e65c12df3d0d548e045bccfd20d6e74a47a90b3f3fa072727ea2a
and confirmed

[PPOC]

Kano, wanted to see how hard it would be to setup an email notification when a block is found, or shortly after that includes something like Ghash does. Would be nice to see so your not checking the stats page several times a day. Example below

Hello Miner

We have solved the block #354533 (25.2432 BTC) in 12 hours at 13783.91 Th/s and done 140637624683 total work.
Your shares: 86401760/25000048254 (0.35%)
Payout: 0.08724205 BTC

On that note, how about also getting an email when a worker has not submitted shares for say 5 or 10 minutes, that would be nice to get alerted from the pool. Not sure how much coding this would be but just wanted to put it out there. Maybe have a place to enter an alert email address which is different then your account email, so one can enter a SMS email address to get txt vs emails.

Thanks in advance!

Well there is a web site already that will send you block notification of the pool.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=789369.msg10261674#msg10261674

And one (or more?) people created apps to do that also.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=789369.msg11091187#msg11091187

I'm not sure if either of them have idle worker notifications, but the pool API includes when the last share was submitted for each worker in the API "work" reply.

Block notifications and idle notifications are on the todo list, but I've avoided doing them so far for a reason.
The main issue is that they represent bulk email.
In the last few years it's become ever so easy to have an email server blacklisted due to sending out email and then it can be up to days to clear it up and remove it from the blacklistings.
The worst example of that is yahoo that doesn't have a way of removing a blacklisting - my mail server was blacklisted there once due to someone who uses my mail servers getting a virus and sending out spam - once we tracked it down and stopped it, I of course had to then remove a bunch of blacklistings - but there was no option to do that with yahoo and I ended up telling everyone who uses the mail server that until further notice assume you can't send email to anyone on yahoo - which IMO was not really that big an issue since yahoo isn't very big any more - but still annoying.

Try the above (links) and send them a donation if they can do what you want - or ask them to add a "lastshare" notification
Everyone has a smartphone these days ... so the App would probably be your best solution if it can do both.
I'll PM them both a link to this message also.

Hi there!

I am the creator of the Android App: CK Pool Stats (Kano)

The app can currently notify you if a block has been found.
The app can also notify you if your hashing speeds has dropped below a certain amount.

I have been very busy with real life and there are more features coming! Just much much slower, especially since the app has been working as intended.
Let me know if you have any questions or feature requests, I'll try to push them out when I have more free time on my hands!

Thanks for the info, do you have it available for iOS?

[ZACHM]

ckpoolmonitor.zachmonroe.com is still running and will send you an email when we find a block.
Right now it does not  have a idle worker notification, but I will sure try to add it.
I will also add a second email option for notifications.

[TheOneJester]

Thanks for the info, do you have it available for iOS?

Unfortunately I do not... Not until I can purchase my very own mac computer, because they do not allow development on anything but their operating system. This might be changing because they are open sourcing their Swyft language, but I haven't had a chance to look into that yet.

[Mikestang]

Not until I can purchase my very own mac computer, because they do not allow development on anything but their operating system.

And it's for this reason (among others) that I would never support Apple or any of their products.  I like to use Flash just because Steve Jobs hated it so much.

[aarons6]

Not until I can purchase my very own mac computer, because they do not allow development on anything but their operating system.

And it's for this reason (among others) that I would never support Apple or any of their products.  I like to use Flash just because Steve Jobs hated it so much.

there is also the 99$ per year fee you have to pay to get your app in the itunes store.

[innerchaos]

Unfortunately I do not... Not until I can purchase my very own mac computer, because they do not allow development on anything but their operating system. This might be changing because they are open sourcing their Swyft language, but I haven't had a chance to look into that yet.

Is it too much trouble to add the Field for notification Sounds.....

so I can choose a different sound for notifications from this App as opposed to a phone notification.   most of my other apps have this so I know its possible..

Just thought I would ask. don't lose any sleep over it

[kano]

Not until I can purchase my very own mac computer, because they do not allow development on anything but their operating system.

And it's for this reason (among others) that I would never support Apple or any of their products.  I like to use Flash just because Steve Jobs hated it so much.

it's worse than that
The Apple OS license requires you buy a computer from apple to run the OS.
The license means you can't even buy OSX and run it in a VM.
... even though an apple is just an over priced intel PC ... running BSD (which isn't all that different to Linux)

[kano]

Just a heads up about the pool.

There's been a DNS UDP attack on the pool for the last 3 days.
Not causing any problems yet (and really there's nothing you can do to stop it either) and of course not causing any block problems either - the pool is still faster at handling block changes than Eligius

If it gets high enough the ddos protection will cut in, but it's below that and not causing any problems yet.
It does seem to be getting bigger as time goes on though.
Most recently it's been up to 8Mb/s so not really worthy of concern yet.

59.56.73.*
115.231.234.224/28
120.52.19.240/28
113.17.175.240/28
119.188.68.0/28
180.153.235.240/28

the DNS packets include:
www.bibi81.com
www.cl0579.com
cqjzm.dfindustry.net.cn
ns2.360wzb.com
ns1.360wzb.com
125.88.190.35

... yeah that's all in china