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Author Topic: welfare is deforming children  (Read 9112 times)
epi 1:10,000
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May 29, 2011, 09:42:21 AM
 #41

First of all the only article you cited states that early medical intervention and education as a goal and supports the premise that the difference in smoking rates could be attributed to a disparity in education and support structure.  I find your very premises unjust under modern ethical systems that take into account modern cognitive neural biology, psychology, and current human knowledge.  In particular the your insistence on an inflexible objectivist construct the consequence of which leads you to see these people as parasites.  Demoralizing this group is counterproductive to your goal "not wanting to encourage children to be deformed" and it can be construed that you are coming from a position of privileged in rights theory.  An yeah "I am mad bro"

If you are unaware of some of the consequences of demonizing/harshly punishing underprivileged and/or ignorant humans you might want to start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monster_Study
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NghtRppr
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May 29, 2011, 09:51:22 AM
 #42

First of all the only article you cited states that early medical intervention and education as a goal and supports the premise that the difference in smoking rates could be attributed to a disparity in education and support structure.

Some of it, perhaps, but all of it? I find that unlikely.
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May 29, 2011, 11:57:13 PM
 #43

Wow, that's sad.

It's also why liberals are wrong.  So wrong.  Liberals think they are helping people, but really, they're only hindering them.  Give someone money, and they'll become dependent on it, not independent as the liberals would so like to proclaim.  Give someone money for having a deformed baby, and surprise surprise, people will find a way to "cheat the system".

And those mothers are so morally messed up as well.  But I wish the US wouldn't give them the means to screw up other people's lives for the sake of making themselves a few more dollars.

Liberals, take note!  This is what happens with your worldview and policies!

I consider myself a Liberal (or Libertarian, depending on context), and I have no idea what you are talking about. The Principle of Liberty does not concern giving free money to anyone. People can do that if they want to, but that's their choice, not a collective liberal idea.

I don't know what definition you use, but over here, liberals oppose arbitrary wealth redistribution by the state unless it is considered fair and necessary.
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May 30, 2011, 08:13:33 AM
 #44

I don't know what definition you use, but over here, liberals oppose arbitrary wealth redistribution by the state unless it is considered fair and necessary.

How is theft ever fair? How is theft ever necessary unless you're starving?
Dobrodav
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May 30, 2011, 01:20:08 PM
 #45

Spartans thrown their defect children's in the sea. That was, no doubt, make the survives children's  very healthy.
What do you suggest? How we should behave ?
How we should interfere in these ?

We will  meet in not-so-distant future.
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May 30, 2011, 08:54:24 PM
 #46

How is theft ever fair? How is theft ever necessary unless you're starving?

It hardly ever is, that's why I'm more of a Libertarian than a Liberal.

However, what you accused "Liberals" of doesn't even sound Liberal. Maybe you refer to a certain party, such as Japan's LDP, which is Liberal only in name?

Arbitrary redistribution of money is what I know as "left" politics, with communism being the extreme branch of it. More state power, a large set of rules on who gets money or support, those are the properties of such politics. Together with "right" politics, which have society set cultural norms, one gets a 2D map of political orientation, with anarchism being the origin and the Nazis quite far away from it. I'd find myself at ~10% "left" and almost zero "right". (Yes, it's not very intuitive to have left orthogonal to right, but I didn't name those political orientations! *shrugs*)

Anyways, it's common to call the direction away from those "left" or "right" politics Liberal. That's why quite some people might be confused at that post from earlier.
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May 30, 2011, 09:42:26 PM
 #47

what you accused "Liberals" of

I haven't used that word in this thread.
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May 30, 2011, 09:54:46 PM
 #48

How is theft ever fair? How is theft ever necessary unless you're starving?

It hardly ever is, that's why I'm more of a Libertarian than a Liberal.

Can you give some examples of types of scenarios when theft is morally acceptable?
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May 30, 2011, 10:17:24 PM
 #49

@bitcoin2cash: Oh, sorry, I mistook you for a different user. So many people around, I should keep better track!


Can you give some examples of types of scenarios when theft is morally acceptable?

A discussion on this will dance around the definition of "theft". If all types of taxes are theft, we leave the commonly accepted terminology, but this seems to be the definition at hand. Let's take a clear example. IMO, those are situations in which a Tragedy of the Commons eradicates an entire system unless it changes rules.

Say, a medium-sized comet is known to just barely get close enough to hit the Earth, and someone finds a way to divert it for an operation that costs 10^12 €. I think the correct course of action is to cut a suitable fraction of all productivity on the planet and use it to divert the comet.

Now, this would mean forcefully taking the money from those who try to avoid paying, hoping that others will do so first. But otherwise, the system punishes those saving the Earth by giving them a disadvantage, which I find an unacceptable result.
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May 31, 2011, 12:18:43 AM
 #50

First of all the only article you cited states that early medical intervention and education as a goal and supports the premise that the difference in smoking rates could be attributed to a disparity in education and support structure.

Some of it, perhaps, but all of it? I find that unlikely.

Some people just have no idea about the magnitude of educational disparity in this county.  A high school near me regularly graduates students who can't read past a 6th grade level.  No child left behind has made things worse.  The county recently removed F's from the grading scale.  Failing is no longer possible, but that's just a technacality since previously when a teacher felt a student should be failed, the principal would give them a choice between passing the student and losing their job.  Tying funding to pass/fail rates has just decoupled those rates from educational success.

As we slide down the banister of life, this is just another splinter in our ass.
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June 01, 2011, 06:29:35 PM
 #51


The United States was founded on the idea that the Federal Government should do very little in our country. The Founding Fathers opposed greatly large government spending project, save for the creation of a National Military. That is it. In fact, for the first hundred years of our country, they opposed almost every spending project on the Federal Scale, because it made no sense, and in no way was within the bounds of the United States Constitution. It was not until the Progressives took power in the early 20th century that massive spending projects were created. People like FDR, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson drastically expanded the Federal Government's power to suddenly be the supporter of the poor and needy. Not as a way to help said poor, but as a way to gain control of power in the United States. They do not care about the low class, or the needy. They only want to bring people under their wing and gain control. It is all a sham. After all, the number one recipient of welfare are minorities in this country (not racist, it's a fact). All these progressive presidents were racists, activly working against giving blacks freedoms, and treating them racially inferior to them. They do not care, they are only trying to gain power.


Citations avail. upon request.
compro01
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June 01, 2011, 07:04:12 PM
 #52

The Founding Fathers opposed greatly large government spending project, save for the creation of a National Military.

That's up for debate.  the constitutional signatories were hardly a unified ideological group and had varying interpretations of the document, such as the loose interpretation from hamilton and adams, versus the strict interpretation by madison and jefferson.
Jaime Frontero
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June 01, 2011, 07:05:44 PM
 #53

A bit unclear on my part, I looked through the first page of results couldn't find anything to back up the latter half of your statement.

It seems that the first page returned by Google is a different one now. Here's what I was trying to point you to: https://www.cms.gov/HealthCareFinancingReview/downloads/04-05winterpg105.pdf

"Findings indicate that pregnant women with deliveries paid by Medicaid are more than twice as likely to smoke as privately insured women..."

Satisfied?

which does absolutely nothing to support your initial contention:

Quote
...and because of that, a lot of women are intentionally smoking during pregnancy to cash in on the system even more so.

it only makes the case (that is, makes it further: it is a fact long known) that poor people smoke more, and smoking is a difficult addiction (by many accounts, the most difficult) to break.

you get all your news and opinions from fox, don't you?
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June 05, 2011, 10:23:39 PM
 #54

If we give money to low birth weight babies, mothers will smoke because it will earn them more money?  Do you really think this is how people who receive welfare think?

What's the alternative to a welfare safety net?  People bootstraping their way into a job with 9%+ unemployeement and a down economy?  Should they just give up and die/be homeless?

Of all of the things the government spends their money on, I would much rather pay and extra $200 in taxes to feed poor Americans than 50%+ of my tax money going towards bombing other countries.
NghtRppr
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June 05, 2011, 10:27:10 PM
 #55

Do you really think this is how people who receive welfare think?

Yes.

What's the alternative to a welfare safety net?

Charity.

Of all of the things the government spends their money on, I would much rather pay and extra $200 in taxes to feed poor Americans than 50%+ of my tax money going towards bombing other countries.

If you want to give your money away then you're welcome to do so. I'm all for charity. In fact, I would donate to a charity that had certain requirements, such as working at a job, going to school, etc.
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June 06, 2011, 02:29:28 PM
 #56

What's your stance on unemployment?
FooDSt4mP
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June 06, 2011, 02:51:39 PM
 #57

All charity and welfare is suppression without exchange.  A man who receives without giving back quickly loses his self worth.  Sure, help them out, but find what they can offer you.  People aren't cogs that just need spun up.  There are deeper psychological issues that need consideration.

As we slide down the banister of life, this is just another splinter in our ass.
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