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Author Topic: So what is going on with Mt.Gox -> Dwolla.  (Read 5554 times)
Tuxavant
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May 15, 2012, 01:35:36 AM
 #41

Agree, but that 5% fee is pretty steep for a new guy to swallow... why pay 5% for this when paypal is "free" kind of thing. I'm not knocking the suggestion, it's just that this guy wants to see how it works - he wont even let me sell him any Bitcoins... so for an introduction to bitcoin, this is complete garbage now. I can't even imagine what a total noob would do on their own trying figure it out on their own these days.


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May 15, 2012, 02:13:20 AM
 #42

Alright, so let cut to the chase.

I assume we are all in this thread because our money (USD) is currently frozen, right? Lets talk other options from getting money from MtGox to our bank accounts (and vice versa). Does Liberty Reserve do the same thing Dwolla can do? Prices/Fees? Wait time? Is there another proxy we can use until Dwolla is back online?

Working on it.

MtGox Dwolla Delays- It's a mixture of them not having enough USD in their American accounts to cover Dwolla / The week long Japanese holiday / Uptake in withdrawals via Dwolla / Dwolla imposing new limits and difficulties for merchants / Not sure what else.

The fact of the matter, right now, withdrawals are still being processed- even if it's taking 2 weeks or so. Hopefully the delays will thin out over the next few weeks.

wasn't that holiday the first week of April?

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May 15, 2012, 02:15:41 AM
 #43

Well don't make the idiotic mistake I did.  After Dwolla was delayed 7 days (plus 2 more to bank) I said well I should just pay the higher fee and go with the speed of an international wire.   

Mt.Gox International Wire = just as slow as Dwolla but they charge you 50x as much. Sad 
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May 31, 2012, 03:32:10 PM
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So how long is Mtgox->Dwolla taking these days? Started a transfer yesterday morning, still at "Status: preparing". Argh.

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May 31, 2012, 03:36:22 PM
 #45

So how long is Mtgox->Dwolla taking these days? Started a transfer yesterday morning, still at "Status: preparing". Argh.

I think about 7-9 business days.  I got one going on 5 days now.

If you need it faster have Mt.Gox cancel it and I have up to $300 in Dwollars I will trade you for MtGoxUSD.  2% premium for instant delivery (i.e. $102 MtGox for me, $100 Dwolla for you).  PM me if interested.
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May 31, 2012, 03:47:40 PM
 #46

I've got upto 100 Dwolla at +1.5%
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June 01, 2012, 02:09:59 AM
 #47

So how long is Mtgox->Dwolla taking these days? Started a transfer yesterday morning, still at "Status: preparing". Argh.

I think about 7-9 business days.  I got one going on 5 days now.

If you need it faster have Mt.Gox cancel it and I have up to $300 in Dwollars I will trade you for MtGoxUSD.  2% premium for instant delivery (i.e. $102 MtGox for me, $100 Dwolla for you).  PM me if interested.

Made a trade with D&T. Very smooth, cheers.

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June 01, 2012, 06:12:25 AM
 #48

So how long is Mtgox->Dwolla taking these days? Started a transfer yesterday morning, still at "Status: preparing". Argh.

I think about 7-9 business days.  I got one going on 5 days now.

If you need it faster have Mt.Gox cancel it and I have up to $300 in Dwollars I will trade you for MtGoxUSD.  2% premium for instant delivery (i.e. $102 MtGox for me, $100 Dwolla for you).  PM me if interested.

Made a trade with D&T. Very smooth, cheers.

+1 to freshzive.  quick and easy.

Still have $200 Dwollars to trade for MG-USD.  Asking 2% premium (i.e. you = $100 Dwollars, me = $012 MG-USD).
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June 01, 2012, 10:26:11 PM
 #49

Well don't make the idiotic mistake I did.  After Dwolla was delayed 7 days (plus 2 more to bank) I said well I should just pay the higher fee and go with the speed of an international wire.  

Mt.Gox International Wire = just as slow as Dwolla but they charge you 50x as much. Sad  

That certainly confirms the theory (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84634.0) that MtGox did something with incoming dollar funds, other than hold on to them, and now they don't have enough to cover withdrawals

The situation seems pretty messed up. We [bitcoin community, and especially businesses] desperately need a trade system that does not rely on several too-big-to-fail actors. I am starting to work on a new project - www.bitcontract.org - reputation tracker. Hopefully we would eventually be able to safely trade p2p using reputation, and not be bound to a handful big companies.

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June 05, 2012, 11:59:28 PM
 #50

Agree, but that 5% fee is pretty steep for a new guy to swallow... why pay 5% for this when paypal is "free" kind of thing.

Because you can't use paypal to buy currencies.  Doesn't matter if it's bitcoins or euros or krona.  Paypal can't be used to buy currencies.

The printing press heralded the end of the Dark Ages and made the Enlightenment possible, but it took another three centuries before any country managed to put freedom of the press beyond the reach of legislators.  So it may take a while before cryptocurrencies are free of the AML-NSA-KYC surveillance plague.
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June 06, 2012, 12:05:47 AM
 #51

So how long is Mtgox->Dwolla taking these days? Started a transfer yesterday morning, still at "Status: preparing". Argh.

I think about 7-9 business days.  I got one going on 5 days now.

I'm pretty sure that the relations between MtGox and Dwolla are currently strained to the point that Gox believes their Dwolla account is going to get locked/stolen/deactivated any day now.

Normally an exchange needs to keep a balance at Dwolla in order to have fast transactions; when you withdraw from the exchange, you're actually getting part of this "MtGox deposit at Dwolla" immediately while, behind the scenes, MtGox makes a (slower) deposit/wire to Dwolla to replace the funds (unless counterbalanced by somebody else depositing to MtGox via Dwolla).

When things break down, the way to CYA is the following: Gox waits until "pending" oubound Dwolla transfers from its users equals its deposit at Dwolla.  Then, it puts all "pending" orders in a queue and processes only as many orders as it can without causing the {sum of value of all pending outbound transfers} to fall below {value of deposit at Dwolla}.

The upshot is this: if Dwolla seizes/freezes/goxes MtGox's account, MtGox can immediately release the queue of pending transfers -- perhaps even post them publicly with suitable anonymization -- and credibly claim that the money Dwolla stole actually belonged to those Dwolla customers.  Gox's hands are clean and the problem becomes Dwolla's to deal with.  Customers are upset at Dwolla, not Gox.  MtGox can even claim they entered those payments into Dwolla's system just moments before the account was frozen -- from the customer perspective, it's a "he said, she said".

All of this is speculative, but this is what I'd do if I were MtGox, and the visible effects on users would be exactly what we're seeing right now.  MtGox has shifted the risk of counterparty exposure to Dwolla from itself to those users making withdrawals via Dwolla.


The printing press heralded the end of the Dark Ages and made the Enlightenment possible, but it took another three centuries before any country managed to put freedom of the press beyond the reach of legislators.  So it may take a while before cryptocurrencies are free of the AML-NSA-KYC surveillance plague.
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June 06, 2012, 01:18:20 AM
 #52

I'm pretty sure that the relations between MtGox and Dwolla are currently strained to the point that Gox believes their Dwolla account is going to get locked/stolen/deactivated any day now.

Normally an exchange needs to keep a balance at Dwolla in order to have fast transactions; when you withdraw from the exchange, you're actually getting part of this "MtGox deposit at Dwolla" immediately while, behind the scenes, MtGox makes a (slower) deposit/wire to Dwolla to replace the funds (unless counterbalanced by somebody else depositing to MtGox via Dwolla).

When things break down, the way to CYA is the following: Gox waits until "pending" oubound Dwolla transfers from its users equals its deposit at Dwolla.  Then, it puts all "pending" orders in a queue and processes only as many orders as it can without causing the {sum of value of all pending outbound transfers} to fall below {value of deposit at Dwolla}.

The upshot is this: if Dwolla seizes/freezes/goxes MtGox's account, MtGox can immediately release the queue of pending transfers -- perhaps even post them publicly with suitable anonymization -- and credibly claim that the money Dwolla stole actually belonged to those Dwolla customers.  Gox's hands are clean and the problem becomes Dwolla's to deal with.  Customers are upset at Dwolla, not Gox.  MtGox can even claim they entered those payments into Dwolla's system just moments before the account was frozen -- from the customer perspective, it's a "he said, she said".

All of this is speculative, but this is what I'd do if I were MtGox, and the visible effects on users would be exactly what we're seeing right now.  MtGox has shifted the risk of counterparty exposure to Dwolla from itself to those users making withdrawals via Dwolla.



That indeed is a nice theory, and it is well possible that it is a correct one. But how does it explain that wire transfers are also taking many days? Dwolla has nothing to do with it

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June 06, 2012, 11:33:32 AM
 #53

"That indeed is a nice theory, and it is well possible that it is a correct one. But how does it explain that wire transfers are also taking many days? Dwolla has nothing to do with it"

Perhaps they don't have many USD available in general for withdrawals, regardless of the transfer method. These delays are concerning. I've thought of selling some BTC at Mt Gox but these delays have me more concerned about the return OF my money than the return ON my money through some small arbitrage opportunity.
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June 06, 2012, 11:31:45 PM
 #54



That indeed is a nice theory, and it is well possible that it is a correct one. But how does it explain that wire transfers are also taking many days? Dwolla has nothing to do with it


Dwolla may or may not have something to do with it.  It people are putting funds into MtGox via Dwolla and then rapidly trying to withdraw via wire transfer, that should definitely flag their system as potentially fraudulent/ML activity and trying to limit their exposure to potential reversals is not just reasonable but essential to the best interests of all customers.  A lot of payment processors won't let you withdraw money via a method you haven't previously used to fund your account and the exchanges may very well end up having to put such restrictions in place eventually just to stay in business.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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June 07, 2012, 05:22:45 PM
 #55

Dwolla may or may not have something to do with it.  It people are putting funds into MtGox via Dwolla and then rapidly trying to withdraw via wire transfer, that should definitely flag their system as potentially fraudulent/ML activity and trying to limit their exposure to potential reversals is not just reasonable but essential to the best interests of all customers.  A lot of payment processors won't let you withdraw money via a method you haven't previously used to fund your account and the exchanges may very well end up having to put such restrictions in place eventually just to stay in business.

What you said might be true, if I popped out of nothing, DWOLLA's a million bucks and then tried to wire them back next day, that would have definitely be something to take a note of.

But when your customer, who does transactions on a daily basis, for a year, requests a 100 bucks wire? Under circumstances that make it clear, why that happened (e.g.: outrageously long withdrawal times?). I think it's a pretty fishy thing when THAT gets delayed for a week.

Most companies keep their funds in this or another form of bank. The wire transfers should never be delayed if funds are available. This is why there's so much suspicion in this thread.

Another thing with DWOLLA transfers: as I said I've been verified with MtGox for a year. I sent them my ID a long time ago. What they did with it, I don't know, but now they canceled two of my DWOLLA transfers, citing their policy, and had me re-upload the documents AGAIN. And guess what - they didn't cancel it right away, instead they waited until the payout time. then they canceled it, then after I uploaded the documents, I'm back at the end of line.

All of it looks very fishy...

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June 07, 2012, 05:59:23 PM
 #56

If you don't like the service that Mt Gox is giving you, take your business elsewhere. Personally, I've been trading at BitFloor lately. I can deposit USD via ING Direct Bank's P2P and withdraw USD via ACH to any checking account in the US. All for FREE! Plus most checking accounts have FDIC insurance, something that your USD balance in your Dwolla account doesn't have.

The fraud at Dwolla has caused a lot of headaches and chargebacks for the exchanges that use it. My solution is to skip Dwolla completely. There are other options to Dwolla (cash, check, money order, ACH, bank wire, ING Bank's P2P and Popmoney). And it you still want to use Dwolla, there are other BTC/USD exchanges besides Mt Gox such as CampBX and Intersango.

If you have BTC, just transfer them from Mt Gox to another exchange and sell them at the other exchange. If you have USD you may even want to bite the bullet and buy BTC with your USD and then transfer the BTC out of Mt Gox and give another exchange a try.

Competition is what keeps the level of service up. But if you get bad service and continue to do business with them, you deserve what you get.
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June 07, 2012, 06:06:42 PM
 #57

Totally agree.. While I have not had any bad experience with MTGOX, the P2P at BitFloor is very appealing and I have already begun to work my future trades through them because of this.

Stay on top of things or get left behind.

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June 07, 2012, 06:37:41 PM
 #58

Totally agree.. While I have not had any bad experience with MTGOX, the P2P at BitFloor is very appealing and I have already begun to work my future trades through them because of this.

Stay on top of things or get left behind.

And he charges 0 fees for the cash deposits, ING deposits, and for ACH withdrawal. That's long term thinking. I really hope Bitfloor is successful.

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June 07, 2012, 06:55:19 PM
 #59

"I really hope Bitfloor is successful."

Don't just hope. Put action behind that hope. Trade there. BitFloor will be successful if enough people trade there. Vote with your bitcoins. Put your orders there, be they large or small. I've tried a lot of different exchanges. You need to check how you're going to get USD or other fiat currencies in and out of the exchange. If, after looking at the exchange, you like what you see, send a small amount or USD or BTC there and do a trade. If all goes OK, send more and repeat. Before you know it a new exchange has grown from nothing to a reliable alternative with good service. Follow that advice for BitFloor and the whole Bitcoin community will be better off IMHO.
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June 07, 2012, 06:58:47 PM
 #60

If you don't like the service that Mt Gox is giving you, take your business elsewhere.

That's why the OP of https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=85938.0 wants his $100 back and is upset. MTGox tells him they need to verify in order to return the money since he used Dwolla. He sends in documentation that Dwolla would accept but MTGox asks for photo ID with unblurred id number, something the OP claims Dwolla doesn't require. MTGox hasn't addressed this main bone of contention.

As of now he can't take his $100 anywhere.
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