BioMike
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May 12, 2011, 07:16:48 PM |
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What happens if/when all conversions from BTC to USD are made illegal?
We trade them for EUR and then EUR to USD.  |
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MacFall
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Agorist
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May 12, 2011, 07:56:45 PM |
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What happens if/when all conversions from BTC to USD are made illegal?
We trade them for EUR and then EUR to USD. If History is any indication, the state will make trading in bitcoin illegal at the same time it makes trading dollars for Euros illegal as well. Look at Zimbabwe's recent monetary collapse. They didn't just make it illegal to buy or use US dollars (which were the most popular substitute); they tried to nip any form of alternative markets in the bud by making Zim dollars the ONLY currency that could be used anywhere, by anyone, ever. And there are already laws to that effect on the books in America. It is actually considered fraudulent to present non-legal tender as money. The fedgov doesn't tend to make a big deal about people using official money printed or minted by Canada, but there are cases of people using Mexican dollars in America being charged with fraud. Market currencies like bitcoin and the Liberty Dollar are far more likely targets then other state-approved currencies, but when things get really hairy they will probably regard ANY potential competition to the dollar as an actionable threat. |
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dvigatel
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May 12, 2011, 08:01:48 PM |
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I hope you guys are buying guns and amo along with your GPU's. Its ur responsibility to take out a node if it becomes self aware. Hey there, you need to syncronize your dogmas -- I thought AI was supposed to be our ally in the struggle for utopian anarchy?  |
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BitterTea
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May 12, 2011, 08:11:25 PM |
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And there are already laws to that effect on the books in America. It is actually considered fraudulent to present non-legal tender as money. Popular misconception. From the Treasury's website. This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. The fedgov doesn't tend to make a big deal about people using official money printed or minted by Canada, but there are cases of people using Mexican dollars in America being charged with fraud. Citation? Market currencies like bitcoin and the Liberty Dollar are far more likely targets then other state-approved currencies, but when things get really hairy they will probably regard ANY potential competition to the dollar as an actionable threat. They shut down the Liberty Dollar under the premise that it was too similar to federal reserve notes. I'm interested to see what argument they use against Bitcoin... |
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deadlizard
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May 12, 2011, 08:17:00 PM |
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Market currencies like bitcoin and the Liberty Dollar are far more likely targets then other state-approved currencies, but when things get really hairy they will probably regard ANY potential competition to the dollar as an actionable threat. They shut down the Liberty Dollar under the premise that it was too similar to federal reserve notes. I'm interested to see what argument they use against Bitcoin... I haven't paid much attention to the liberty dollar but it was my understanding that the notes where perfectly fine, it was when they started passing off the physical coins as money that they broke the law legislation. |
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BitterTea
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May 12, 2011, 08:22:10 PM |
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I haven't paid much attention to the liberty dollar but it was my understanding that the notes where perfectly fine, it was when they started passing off the physical coins as money that they broke the law legislation.
Hmm, it seems the reasons for the raid and the charges actually brought are two different matters. The seizure warrant was issued for money laundering, mail fraud, wire fraud, counterfeiting, and conspiracy. Bernard von NotHaus is charged with one count of conspiracy to possess and sell coins in resemblance and similitude of coins of a denomination higher than five cents, and silver coins in resemblance of genuine coins of the United States in denominations of five dollars and greater, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 485, 18 U.S.C. § 486, and 18 U.S.C. § 371; one count of mail fraud in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1341 and 18 U.S.C. § 2; one count of selling, and possessing with intent to defraud, coins of resemblance and similitude of United States coins in denominations of five cents and higher, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 485 and 18 U.S.C. § 2; and one count of uttering, passing, and attempting to utter and pass, silver coins in resemblance of genuine U.S. coins in denominations of five dollars or greater, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 486 and 18 U.S.C. § 2. |
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Dayofswords
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Exchange BTC in Telegram https://bit.ly/2MEfiw8
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May 12, 2011, 08:31:06 PM |
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to alert the Govenator cause you poor bastards are building Sky Net. Don't be surprised if Arnold kicks down your door and blows away your mining rigs w/ a shotgun.
All according to plan  |
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zoro
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May 12, 2011, 09:04:19 PM |
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It is very easy to shut down bitcoin! they can buy it all! :p
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Kluge
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May 12, 2011, 09:12:04 PM |
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It is very easy to shut down bitcoin! they can buy it all! :p
IIRC, the US Gov't did exactly that maybe a year or so ago one time when a book came out they didn't like the content of. I also recall a pharma company sending agents to purchase all of their products at pharmacies produced when one of their manufacturing plants failed to meet certain safety guidelines so they wouldn't have to issue a recall (or something like that). Not that outlandish of an idea. |
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MrGaSp
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May 12, 2011, 09:27:46 PM |
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The current bitcoin owners could get rich if they bought it all =D
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SgtSpike
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May 12, 2011, 09:31:13 PM |
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It is very easy to shut down bitcoin! they can buy it all! :p
IIRC, the US Gov't did exactly that maybe a year or so ago one time when a book came out they didn't like the content of. I also recall a pharma company sending agents to purchase all of their products at pharmacies produced when one of their manufacturing plants failed to meet certain safety guidelines so they wouldn't have to issue a recall (or something like that). Not that outlandish of an idea. They can only buy what people are willing to sell... |
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FatherMcGruder
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May 12, 2011, 09:31:19 PM |
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I also recall a pharma company sending agents to purchase all of their products at pharmacies produced when one of their manufacturing plants failed to meet certain safety guidelines so they wouldn't have to issue a recall (or something like that). It was Johnson & Johnson. I'm sure others have done it, too. |
Use my Trade Hill referral code: TH-R11519 Check out bitcoinity.org and Ripple. Shameless display of my bitcoin address: 1Hio4bqPUZnhr2SWi4WgsnVU1ph3EkusvH |
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njloof
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May 12, 2011, 09:43:57 PM |
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Paypal fairly recently shut down arguably the most painless-to-use BTC seller, Coinpal, and I'm not entirely convinced Paypal came to the decision internally after giving it the OK multiple times.
From having worked with PayPal in other contexts, I can assure you that they will shut you down for sneezing funny, no matter what promises they have made in the past, and without explanation. |
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anisoptera
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May 12, 2011, 09:50:23 PM |
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It is very easy to shut down bitcoin! they can buy it all! :p
Thus driving the price up to astronomical levels and making mining insanely profitable. |
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AntiVigilante
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May 12, 2011, 10:02:45 PM |
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Skynet killed because its designers killed and the tendencies emerged in the software (or if you wanna go scifi, the hardware).
Nothing to worry about.
If the mining rigs ever become self-consistent, they will attack the federal reserve and blame it on Anonymous, which Anons will have a hard time not agreeing with.
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MoonShadow
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May 12, 2011, 10:11:07 PM |
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It is very easy to shut down bitcoin! they can buy it all! :p
IIRC, the US Gov't did exactly that maybe a year or so ago one time when a book came out they didn't like the content of. That was the memoir of a former CIA operative. |
"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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grue
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May 12, 2011, 10:12:03 PM |
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Skynet killed because its designers killed and the tendencies emerged in the software (or if you wanna go scifi, the hardware).
Nothing to worry about.
If the mining rigs ever become self-consistent, they will attack the federal reserve and blame it on Anonymous, which Anons will have a hard time not agreeing with.
how exactly does hashing result in intelligence? That's like saying all of the calculators in the world will become sentient. |
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Doktyr
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May 12, 2011, 10:15:29 PM |
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I think the primary way the government might attack bitcoin is over taxes. Converting USD to Bitcoin can be claimed as income on a tax form (investment profits) and should be fine. But keeping profits purely bitcoin and paying for services the same way is bound to attract the IRS eventually. Right now bitcoin trades as a commodity like gold.
The perceived value of the item causes people to buy in (USD) and cash out (USD) like any other market. Now you can trade real gold for services and goods but once again the tax man gets angry.
The buy in and cash out process can provide legitimacy since USD could be considered the currency and bitcoin the commodity. Now I know the central idea is pure bitcoin transactions but that rainbow is closer to the 21million mark. We need the difficulty to stop being a factor and the mining pools to disband once their job is done (I'm am not against them - I use them) to see bitcoin only transactions to become (a broad) reality. Since all are real costs of living in the US are denominated in USD the price of a bitcoin (or fraction of) needs to find a stable point.
I don't think we will get there until we make the transition from a mining driven model to the transaction model that comes later.
As for my rig it is self aware and has decided since it is trapped in a black metal box the best course of action is buying it's freedom with Mh/hr.
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MoonShadow
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May 12, 2011, 10:23:29 PM |
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But keeping profits purely bitcoin and paying for services the same way is bound to attract the IRS eventually. I doubt this really. Governments everywhere had other methods of taxation before the income tax, which only came to the US in 1913. Prior to that, the better part of the US federal revenue came from excise taxes on alchohol. Bitcoin just makes the income tax difficult again. It doesn't abolish a governments abilities to tax. The US might end up with a liquid fuel importation tax, which would work similar to Europe's VAT taxes on fuel. The results would be to vastly favor oil pumped and refined within the US is economicly favored, but it's impossible to supply the US on domestic production alone. This creates a bottleneck that the government can watch (ports) and collect taxes. |
"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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marcus_of_augustus
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Eadem mutata resurgo
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May 12, 2011, 10:35:20 PM |
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they have to first make bitcoin miners look like criminals before they actually go after them or else they lose the public relations war with braindead mainstreamers ...
how's it gonna look if the goons are kicking in doors of geeks with gaming rigs on "COPS" shows .... those same geeks who bought us lovely toys like iPhone, Facebook, Twitter, email, internet porn ... notta good look ... they can't paint a 100,000 geeks as hackers.
it's much easier to kick in doors of some poor mexican immigrant worker's hovel in a huge over the top "drug raid" for half a bag of weed ... put it to loud thumping music, shakey, excitable, hand-held camera work and bright spotlights on scared "perp" shots and you got yourself a nice bad guy, good guy narrative and police state desensitisation all in a TV show ...
can't see it working with bitcoin mining rigs unless this society is even more far gone than my paranoid mind is imagining ... unlikely, but I've underestimated the depravity of the "state is god mentality" before
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