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Author Topic: October 2014. Are GPU rigs useless?  (Read 8203 times)
bensam123
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November 21, 2014, 02:36:37 PM
 #41

What's wrong with subsidize heating?  You don't like free heat?  It absolutely makes sense to mine for heat even if you're only breaking even on power costs...

Only short-termers sell rigs in the spring...  It might only take a week of highly profitable mining to make hanging onto 30 cards worthwhile vs selling them.  And if you've got large spaces or several buildings to keep warm during the winter, then you can save yourself thousands in heating costs.

Opportunity cost, buy a $30 heater from WalMart. Thousands of dollars worth of hardware that is depreciating isn't the same thing (They've already lost 2/3s their value since last spring)

30 cards wouldn't heat large buildings. That's probably 6000w worth of heat at x11, that's enough for a small house depending on how cold it is and how well it's insulated. Gas is cheaper then electric for heating as well, much cheaper.

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Slightly above breaking even with power costs is the minimum required to make money..  Sell cards?  Why?  Wrecking it for other people?  LOLOLOLOLOL

Opportunity cost. What could you be doing with the $5000 instead of having it depreciate in your basement as a space heater. Like put it in a savings account. If you bought those cards with a loan, you're talking interest on top of it, which slightly more then break even isn't covering.

This goes back to spring time, when everyone is super negative (heat isn't subsidized anymore)and it'll either force everyone to sell or sit on it for another six months, which the hardware will depreciate further. If they sell, it'll crash the reusable market and further depreciate the cards.

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That's one way of looking at it - you could also say that the most efficient miner is the one that's producing the most hashes... depends what matters to you... wattage won't necessarily matter to everyone's idea of mining efficiency.

Efficiency isn't a foreign concept that's up for definition. More hash when you lose more money is not more efficient. Hashrate is dynamic. If everyone has the same 280x and is using the same kernel, if the hashrate is 1GH/s or 1h/s per 280x it doesn't matter (if they're hashing at the same speed). What does matter is how much power is being used to achieve that. Hashrate is a arbitrary number used to denote how much work a card is doing. The percentage of the pie stays the same (all else being equal) as the difficulty will adjust.

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You call it stupid, I call it smart.  All my hardware made ROI long ago (of course, after paying for the power), and is well in profit.  Now it's the most efficient heater you could ever imagine (it pays for itself and then some!)

I bet it did. Except that heater costs $5000 and you could sell that and buy yourself a nice high efficiency furnace and redo the insulation in your house. Not to mention it'll depreciate greatly over the next year. A furnace and insulation will not.

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Oh definitely, I can't see who would invest right now.  But if you already have the GPUs, and you're keeping them for some reason (people will have various reasons), why not have free heat for the winter?

Opportunity cost, depreciation, artificially depressing the market for the sake of spiting others.

I love the "wrecking it for other people" part. Stop mining because I want diff to go down!  Grin

Why would my motives matter if the points make sense unless you're being illogical and doing 'dumb' things for the sake of spiting me?
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November 21, 2014, 04:03:58 PM
 #42

What's wrong with subsidize heating?  You don't like free heat?  It absolutely makes sense to mine for heat even if you're only breaking even on power costs...

Only short-termers sell rigs in the spring...  It might only take a week of highly profitable mining to make hanging onto 30 cards worthwhile vs selling them.  And if you've got large spaces or several buildings to keep warm during the winter, then you can save yourself thousands in heating costs.

Opportunity cost, buy a $30 heater from WalMart. Thousands of dollars worth of hardware that is depreciating isn't the same thing (They've already lost 2/3s their value since last spring)

30 cards wouldn't heat large buildings. That's probably 6000w worth of heat at x11, that's enough for a small house depending on how cold it is and how well it's insulated. Gas is cheaper then electric for heating as well, much cheaper.

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Slightly above breaking even with power costs is the minimum required to make money..  Sell cards?  Why?  Wrecking it for other people?  LOLOLOLOLOL

Opportunity cost. What could you be doing with the $5000 instead of having it depreciate in your basement as a space heater. Like put it in a savings account. If you bought those cards with a loan, you're talking interest on top of it, which slightly more then break even isn't covering.

This goes back to spring time, when everyone is super negative (heat isn't subsidized anymore)and it'll either force everyone to sell or sit on it for another six months, which the hardware will depreciate further. If they sell, it'll crash the reusable market and further depreciate the cards.

Quote
That's one way of looking at it - you could also say that the most efficient miner is the one that's producing the most hashes... depends what matters to you... wattage won't necessarily matter to everyone's idea of mining efficiency.

Efficiency isn't a foreign concept that's up for definition. More hash when you lose more money is not more efficient. Hashrate is dynamic. If everyone has the same 280x and is using the same kernel, if the hashrate is 1GH/s or 1h/s per 280x it doesn't matter (if they're hashing at the same speed). What does matter is how much power is being used to achieve that. Hashrate is a arbitrary number used to denote how much work a card is doing. The percentage of the pie stays the same (all else being equal) as the difficulty will adjust.

Quote
You call it stupid, I call it smart.  All my hardware made ROI long ago (of course, after paying for the power), and is well in profit.  Now it's the most efficient heater you could ever imagine (it pays for itself and then some!)

I bet it did. Except that heater costs $5000 and you could sell that and buy yourself a nice high efficiency furnace and redo the insulation in your house. Not to mention it'll depreciate greatly over the next year. A furnace and insulation will not.

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Oh definitely, I can't see who would invest right now.  But if you already have the GPUs, and you're keeping them for some reason (people will have various reasons), why not have free heat for the winter?

Opportunity cost, depreciation, artificially depressing the market for the sake of spiting others.

I love the "wrecking it for other people" part. Stop mining because I want diff to go down!  Grin

Why would my motives matter if the points make sense unless you're being illogical and doing 'dumb' things for the sake of spiting me?

Six GPUs can heat an apartment. 30 would supply a blast furnace. Also, if you have GPU rigs that are paid off - why not? Some people ENJOY mining. Like me.

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bensam123
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November 22, 2014, 06:47:28 AM
 #43

Six GPUs can heat an apartment. 30 would supply a blast furnace. Also, if you have GPU rigs that are paid off - why not? Some people ENJOY mining. Like me.

Apartments are usually tiny from a square footage perspective and have heat included (almost always). If you're into a upstairs unit you're also more then likely receiving plenty of heat from the unit below you.

Having close to that number of GPUs, I can tell you it will maybe heat a small house using x11. Blast furnace my ass. You have no idea how many BTUs a normal furnace puts out to heat your home (hydronic or forced air). Gas is ridiculously cheaper and so are furnaces.

Not everyone uses the excuse 'hobby' to operate at a loss. If that's you, obviously talking about trade offs and profit doesn't apply to you. There are plenty of people who got into GPU mining to make a profit, I'd say most people did. The residual may be hobbyists after everything crashes and burns, but we're in the middle of crashing right now, which is why I'm trying to talk to people in various ways.

If people are super negative they should sell, trying to get the word out about more efficient algos and hoping I change some minds as far as that's concerned, so people wont be so negative.

Opportunity cost, depreciation, and artificially depressing the market.
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November 22, 2014, 07:26:13 AM
 #44

Apartments are usually tiny from a square footage perspective and have heat included (almost always). If you're into a upstairs unit you're also more then likely receiving plenty of heat from the unit below you.
That might be true where you live... it certainly is not the case everywhere - far from it... some people pay $1000+ to heat a 500sqft condo over the winter.

Having close to that number of GPUs, I can tell you it will maybe heat a small house using x11. Blast furnace my ass. You have no idea how many BTUs a normal furnace puts out to heat your home (hydronic or forced air). Gas is ridiculously cheaper and so are furnaces.
HAHAHAH... NO!  You can easily spend $3000-5000 on oil to heat a house over the winter months.  Or, you can mine $5000 worth of crypto, and make the same heat.

Not everyone uses the excuse 'hobby' to operate at a loss. If that's you, obviously talking about trade offs and profit doesn't apply to you. There are plenty of people who got into GPU mining to make a profit, I'd say most people did. The residual may be hobbyists after everything crashes and burns, but we're in the middle of crashing right now, which is why I'm trying to talk to people in various ways.
Who said anything about operating at a loss?

If people are super negative they should sell, trying to get the word out about more efficient algos and hoping I change some minds as far as that's concerned, so people wont be so negative.
More efficient algos?  What?  I totally don't understand this statement.  Change what minds about what?

Opportunity cost, depreciation, and artificially depressing the market.
Opportunity cost being paid for in spades - all calculations considered.  Also - what's your lost opportunity cost if there is say, a few days in the future where GPU mining is immensely profitable?  Artificially depressing the market - I also don't understand what you're talking about here...  Either non-sense or, well, something close to non-sense as far as I can see.  There isn't anything artificial about it, and I don't know how actively mining is depressing the market.
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November 23, 2014, 05:48:46 AM
 #45

I am pretty sure many are using GPUs as space heaters as the difficulty went thru the roof recently.

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bensam123
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November 24, 2014, 05:13:43 AM
 #46

That might be true where you live... it certainly is not the case everywhere - far from it... some people pay $1000+ to heat a 500sqft condo over the winter.

If you're heating a 'condominium', I'm guessing scrounging for money with GPUs isn't on your table... and if you are, seriously bro, do something around your pay grade.


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HAHAHAH... NO!  You can easily spend $3000-5000 on oil to heat a house over the winter months.  Or, you can mine $5000 worth of crypto, and make the same heat.

Not sure where you're mining, but you need a LOT of GPUs to make $5000 over winter. Winter being about five months of cold season, I'd make a fraction of that in RAW BTC and I am using about 25 GPUs. You're probably talking about $2000, not including power, which will eat all of that.

No one uses oil to heat their homes anymore, that's ancient (and if you do for god sakes by a high efficiency gas furnace). A standard natural gas bill for a bigger house (like mine) runs about $60 a month. That's $300 over the course of the entire winter.

I'm definitely starting to think whoever is left mining BTC (on GPUs) aren't the brightest bunch, which is why we're left in the predicament we are and unfortunately I bought into this.

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Who said anything about operating at a loss?

Show me how you're profiting and then I'll believe it.

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More efficient algos?  What?  I totally don't understand this statement.

Fresh was one, x11 at the beginning was another.

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Opportunity cost being paid for in spades - all calculations considered.  Also - what's your lost opportunity cost if there is say, a few days in the future where GPU mining is immensely profitable?  Artificially depressing the market - I also don't understand what you're talking about here...  Either non-sense or, well, something close to non-sense as far as I can see.  There isn't anything artificial about it, and I don't know how actively mining is depressing the market.

Reread the definition of opportunity cost. If you're still making a profit on GPU mining you're either using maxwell GPUs or your calculations aren't working out. Opportunity cost is not just making profit either, it's what you could do with the money if you weren't otherwise investing it in say GPUs. Like buying a high efficiency furnace instead of a oil heater you still apparently have, redoing your insulation in your subzero arctic renaissance era condominium.

If the trend of the market is anything, it's that it basically reached equilibrium at power prices ($300-$400 per BTC), so it's not going to spike to $1000. like I said I don't think I'm being grouped with the smartest bunch anymore. As per your last statement, you're betting on the lottery.

Artificially depressing the market is raising difficulty by subsidizing it with something that wont always be there. Heating costs. As I described earlier, when spring time rolls around, everyone who is operating super negative now will either be forced to sell (and there seem to be a lot of people mining at a loss right now) and it'll further push the resale value of GPUs even lower due to the supply surging to market. Or they'll hang onto it till next winter which it'll depreciate again.

Opportunity cost also includes you hanging onto a 280x, which has already been depreciated by the release of maxwell and furthermore by 970/980, which AMD reduced the price of the cards. A high efficiency furnace doesn't depreciate in value every three months.

I am pretty sure many are using GPUs as space heaters as the difficulty went thru the roof recently.

Yes, there are a lot of really stupid people clinging to cards. I didn't expect so many people to still have rigs laying around. Either that or chinese farmers all sold and bought maxwells, which is a possibility, but highly unlikely. With the increase in difficulty it has to be people using GPUs as space heaters. If people are so against selling right now, I'm sure they wouldn't be smart enough to liquidate and buy maxwells.
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November 24, 2014, 05:27:03 AM
 #47

I have been selling my rigs, with almost half of buying price.
If consider of what i got during mining time, i can say that i make a quite loss

But i have to be "move on" and not stuck with my R9-280X
Crypt coin these days are not suitable for small miner with just around 6 VGA
Better use the money to buy some btc and keep it
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November 24, 2014, 05:55:54 AM
 #48

I just sold my entire farm: http://s1242.photobucket.com/user/Ignition75/media/DSC_0008_zps4d33cb7e.jpg.html

Purchased shares in larger operations, best move I ever made, already made ROI and no electricity bill.

With GPU developers selling custom mining software to the privileged few that are sucking all profit out of the system, don't bother mining unless you have free electricity.

The new generation have arrived and they brought their own currency...
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November 24, 2014, 08:43:23 AM
 #49

I just sold my entire farm: http://s1242.photobucket.com/user/Ignition75/media/DSC_0008_zps4d33cb7e.jpg.html

Purchased shares in larger operations, best move I ever made, already made ROI and no electricity bill.

With GPU developers selling custom mining software to the privileged few that are sucking all profit out of the system, don't bother mining unless you have free electricity.

You're situation is different. Many have small rigs (<10 GPUs) who live in old apartment building (where power is a flat rate) or get free electricity from Business/University.

Right now an R9 270X is worth about $100, in one year, it will most likely be worth $80-90 or so. They already depreciated to the max.

At the moment an R9 270X only makes $0.25 per day. After 6 months thats $45. From there the daily profit might either stay the same or become lower.

So the point is, if you have free electricity just keep mining. You already missed the boat to dump the GPU before the price fell.


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bitboy11
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November 24, 2014, 09:10:42 AM
 #50

Those rigs are just about worthless now! Roll Eyes
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November 24, 2014, 11:26:19 AM
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I will keep my rigs for now. Be patient, soon the price of BTC will raise and our profit will raise  Wink
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November 24, 2014, 03:05:04 PM
 #52

Those rigs are just about worthless now! Roll Eyes

Got 65% of my RRP back, definitely not worthless.

I bought top of the range of each card, which gamers gobbled up fast  Wink


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November 24, 2014, 03:28:24 PM
 #53

Those rigs are just about worthless now! Roll Eyes

Got 65% of my RRP back, definitely not worthless.

I bought top of the range of each card, which gamers gobbled up fast  Wink



Many I bought were used so I maybe lost 25% value or so.

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November 24, 2014, 04:21:20 PM
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need to build solar panel if want continue GPU rigs
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November 24, 2014, 05:54:01 PM
 #55

I picked up some ASICS and replaced my GPU farm. I found that mining GPU coins was not profitable anymore. Unfortunately I will probably never see ROI on my ASICS. So I would have to say all mining is not profitable if you calculate equipment costs + electricity. I do it for speculation and hope. I hope the prices go up and I really hope the coins I'm mining and holding go to the moon.

I also believe this trend of low prices is only temporary and will pick up again in the next two years.
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November 24, 2014, 07:21:28 PM
 #56

Mine #NeoScrypt with your GPU rigs. #Feathercoin #Phoenixcoin or #UFOcoin.

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November 24, 2014, 07:40:28 PM
 #57

Mine #NeoScrypt with your GPU rigs. #Feathercoin #Phoenixcoin or #UFOcoin.

This is not twitter.

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November 24, 2014, 08:07:03 PM
 #58

Yeah, I actually thought it was stupid to buy into ASICs originally as you need to keep turning them over and reselling them to keep up with the game, but at this point it seems as though I backed the wrong horse. I honestly didn't expect so many people to keep their rigs as space heaters for winter. It seems now that ASICs were the better solution simply as people didn't play hanky-panky with them by subsidizing their heating costs. It doesn't help that the people tweaking the the algos don't care about efficiency either (check the other threads and this one).

More hash doesn't mean anything (all else being equal) when it's at the cost of higher power usage. The only exception to this is compared to maxwell, which is where hash/watt comes into things.
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November 24, 2014, 08:09:53 PM
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Yeah, I actually thought it was stupid to buy into ASICs originally as you need to keep turning them over and reselling them to keep up with the game, but at this point it seems as though I backed the wrong horse. I honestly didn't expect so many people to keep their rigs as space heaters for winter. It seems now that ASICs were the better solution simply as people didn't play hanky-panky with them by subsidizing their heating costs. It doesn't help that the people tweaking the the algos don't care about efficiency either (check the other threads and this one).

More hash doesn't mean anything (all else being equal) when it's at the cost of higher power usage. The only exception to this is compared to maxwell, which is where hash/watt comes into things.

Oh, we care. You're simply asking for the impossible.

To achieve what you want, we would first need to make the algo faster - using more power - then cripple it using something like memory reads to bring it back down to the original hashrate, but with lower power use.

Could it be done? Sure, but then someone will edit out the obviously stupid memory reads and have a better hashrate, at the cost of a little more power. And if they release it, then you're back to what you don't want.

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November 24, 2014, 10:04:04 PM
 #60

Mine #NeoScrypt with your GPU rigs. #Feathercoin #Phoenixcoin or #UFOcoin.

This is not twitter.

Cheesy - just like #!

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