Mybitcointrade.com | High Interest 2.5%-5%/w | 20% on Bonds| AAA- |Since 07/2011

[Eisenhower34]

Im not sure but how can you pay 20% per month for a year without investing into pirate...

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[JoelKatz]

Im not sure but how can you pay 20% per month for a year without investing into pirate...

I guess you're not familiar with Stock Generation. This looks like the same setup. You pay 20% per month for a few months using your deposits to fund the payouts and strongly encouraging reinvestment. Then, you close down all the funds with guaranteed high rates (or just don't offer them), offering people to either get into non-guaranteed funds at no loss or to take the 75% haircut to cash out. Either way, you make money. Then you just tell everyone in the non-guaranteed funds that you're very sorry but they lost everything. As was made clear, it's risky.

In effect, this can be a Ponzi scheme and can take everyone's money without ever breaching one promise they made. All they've promised is that you might make a lot of profit and that your losses are capped at 75%. It's basically like a casino -- all they're saying is that you might make money and you might lose money. The difference is, they've made no clear disclosure of under what conditions you make and which you lose. It's probably safe to assume you make money when that's profitable for them and you lose money when that's profitable for them.

You will continue to make money so long as their deposits continue to increase. Then they'll buy everyone out for just 25% and keep around 75% of current deposits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_Generation

The folks at Stock Generation lost in court due to a very slight miscalculation. If these guys learned from that, they can probably run this entire scam (keeping about 50% of total deposits) without breaking any laws.

The giveaway to this is that the investments are said to involve risk with no clear explanation of what the risks are and under what circumstances they lose money. This is what separates something like Stock Generation from a classic Ponzi. (If you read carefully, they can keep most of your money for no reason at all other than that they want to and not break any of their own terms.)

[support_en.mybitcointrade]

For security reasons, we added the option to link a btc address directly and fixed to your account.
You can change/add this in your 'User Profile'.
So in case your account will be comprimised, nobody will be able to withdraw your coins to another address.

Regards
Simon

[Retard]

Update firstpost

[JoelKatz]

Care to comment on how this is any different from scams like Stock Generation? This appears to me to be precisely the same type of offer. It appears that even if you keep all your promises, this is an incredibly bad deal. It's roughly the same as "lend us some money and we might pay you some interest, but we might also keep most of your money (we promise not to keep all of it, though) -- it's risky in an unspecified, unquantifiable way". How is that a deal any rational person would want?

[support_en.mybitcointrade]

We do not promise everybody 20% interest, just to those who want to take the risk.
We are not running a Stock Generation.
Of course every 'project' offered by us has a different risk, but also a different interest.
There are also projects, with no risk and fixed payouts.
We can promise such high rates as we do some investments on our own and also lend some btc.
We speculate with the coins or try to support other projects.

Besided this facts, there are many users which like our projects and are satisfied with them.

JoelKatz please let us/me know, how to proof that this isn't a 'Stock Generation', we're willing to do (nearly) everything.

Regards
Simon

[JoelKatz]

We do not promise everybody 20% interest, just to those who want to take the risk.

Who want to take *what* risk? The risk that you'll decide not to pay them 20% interest?

We are not running a Stock Generation.

What's the difference? Your pitch appears identical to Stock Generation's pitch.

Of course every 'project' offered by us has a different risk, but also a different interest.

In other words, you may or may not pay out on any 'project' based on factors that you won't disclose. What sane person would give money under such terms?

There are also projects, with no risk and fixed payouts.

Sure, as much as you choose to offer them for as long as you let people keep money in them. That sounds a lot like Stock Generation, doesn't it?

We can promise such high rates as we do some investments on our own and also lend some btc.
We speculate with the coins or try to support other projects.

But you don't promise high rates. You make it clear that there's some unspecified risk that the high rates, and even the principal, won't materialize. And you do not make it clear under what conditions principal can be lost. Effectively, you're saying "You might make money, I might keep your money, it's risky. And I won't tell you what determines which of these two things will happen."

Besided this facts, there are many users which like our projects and are satisfied with them.

The same was true of Stock Generation. You've yet to explain how this is different.

JoelKatz please let us/me know, how to proof that this isn't a 'Stock Generation', we're willing to do (nearly) everything.

Explain what the "risk" is precisely and how someone who loses money can tell whether this is because of a legitimate risk that didn't pan out or merely because you decided to keep his money.

All you've said so far is, "You might make a lot of money. Or you might lose money. It's risky. And we won't tell you what the risks are or how we decide whether you make or lose money. It's up to us." Sorry, that's something only a scammer would say.

Your pitch is precisely like this: "Lend me $50 and I'll pay you $10/week. I'll do something with your money that makes money, and I'll share the profits with you. However, it's risky. I might have to stop paying you at some point.." That's just not what an honest business does, because it not only suggests but explicitly allows you to just stop paying because you'd rather keep people's money. You have to say *what* the risk is so that if you do stop paying me, I know it's not just because you decided you'd rather keep my money.

The scam with Stock Generation is not what they did -- with one very minor exception, they kept their promises and did what they said. The scam is the offer itself -- we might or might not pay you based on factors we won't disclose. And that scam offer seems, at least to me, to be your offer. If I'm missing something, please correct me. How is your offer different from the classic SG scam offer?

[Retard]

New Rates on bitcoin saving books.

14 days at a rate of 4.5% (+ 0.00%*)monthly

30 days at a rate of 11.15% (+ 0.00%*)

60 days at a rate of 12.43% (+ 0.00%*)

90 days at a rate of 13.11% (+ 0.00%*)

180 days at a rate of 14.28% (+ 0.00%*)

360 days at a rate of 20.92% (+ 0.00%*)

best regards,
smart

[JoelKatz]

You specifically say this is a low-risk fund. What *precisely* is the source of that risk? And if the risk occurs and I don't get paid out, how can I tell that this was honestly because of an unforeseen and unlikely event and not just because you decided to keep my money and say, "Sorry, we said it was low risk, not no risk"?

Again, this is precisely the Stock Generation scam. You tell people to invest with you and promise them a low risk but make no disclosure of what the risk is or under what circumstances the risk will materialize. Then you say, "Sorry. Your investment lost money. We said there was risk."

Even if you keep your promises and do everything you say you will do, the offer *itself* still looks like a blatant Stock Generation style scam to me. You are asking me to take a risk that I will lose money without having any idea what that risk is and if I do lose money, all I have is your word that something bad happened and therefore I lost money and you didn't simply decide to keep it because you'd rather have it.

What am I missing exactly? You say you are different from Stock Generation, but I don't see the difference.

[Retard]

all saving books have no risk the payout is 100 % guaranteed

Project 16 shares https://www.mybitcointrade.com/en/?content=boerse/projekthandel&projektid=16  12%interrest

have no risk interrest and payout after term ist 100 % guaranteed

Project 17 Shares https://www.mybitcointrade.com/en/?content=boerse/projektbearbeitung&projektid=17 20 % interrest

high risk if i will lose the volume of 813 coins i guaranteed 25 % of this volume, if i lose this volume i will make a Post in this forum and show all ppl here why the btc are lost.

Project 18 shares https://www.mybitcointrade.com/en/?content=boerse/projektbearbeitung&projektid=18

have no rist and the payout after term is 100% guaranteed.


only one of my projects with the lowest volume can broke. its 830 btc the complete volume of this site is more then 15k btc. you will say i try to scam my users for 830 btc ? this is a joke.

no one have in the last year a problem with mybitcointrade.com the most ppl trust us. everyone make her profit with this site without problems.

if you think project 17 is not okay to use it (OKAY) everyone can look and use the bond it is okay for her.
all old users like this bond. but they know they can trust me. see how much shares are sold.

sorry for my bad english my suport is not online in this moment. today i will fix this post.

[JoelKatz]

(snip)

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_Generation

""Company 9 was the "privileged" company, with its shares "guaranteed" never to decrease in value. Promised return was originally 10% a month (215% annually,) but was later reduced to 7% a month or 125% annually. In early April 2000, Stock Generation, despite all previous guarantees, devalued its privileged company shares to 5% of their previous value.""

This looks *exactly* like Stock Generation. If it's different, you haven't said how it's different.

Let's talk about the "high risk" fund. What is the risk exactly? Under what scenario will this fund not make payouts or lose money and how can I tell whether these things actually happened rather than you just deciding to keep my money? Bluntly, it looks like you've specifically reserved the right to just arbitrarily reduce the value of this fund for no reason or any reason. Perhaps there's some reason you'd want to word things this way, but to me, it sounds like only something a blatant scammer would say.

How is the "high risk fond" any different from "Give us your money and we might pay you huge amounts of money, or we might not and just keep your money". And why would anyone who wasn't a scammer even make such an offer?

[support_en.mybitcointrade]

I can't give you more than a word, that we are using the coins for investments and speculation.
The risk you take, is the risk we trade with your coins. Currently we're doing that (better said the man who is doing the trades) very well and you could know, that the more money you have, the more profit you can make.

I agree that the project can be viewed as a 'Stock Generation' and we're willing to do anything to proof that this view is false.

Again, please tell me how to convince you, that we're honest (Besides all that satisfied users over the years. A 'Stock Generation' can just be run to a limited amount of time, please correct me if I'm wrong).

We're not trying to scam anybody, we are just trying to share our experience in trading with other users that trusts us.

Regards
Simon

P.S.: Did you notice the fact, that MyBitcointrade is run out of Germany, with a valid imprint?
Imo if this would be something like a 'Stock Generation', i would run it from outside EU, but i don't know if btc is affected by it.
I'm still thinking about how to proof that the risk isn't like it is in a 'Stock Generation', do you have a possible solution?
I can just give you words, but I think some screenshots or transferlogs could clear things out.... So any idea how to proof our honesty?
We are also identified via ID Card by one of the most trusted users here on board, if you know how to do more, please let me/us know it.

[Otoh]

I have just received principle plus interest from a loan of 76.67 BTC made on the 15th of June 2012 @ 1.975% per week for 60 days, a total of 89.796 BTC, for a profit of 13.126 BTC.

In dollar terms I put in $453 & have just been returned $1,090 in under 2 months with a guaranteed loan, many thanks Smart & Co.!!!  

[JoelKatz]

I can't give you more than a word, that we are using the coins for investments and speculation.

That's pretty worrisome, don't you think?

The risk you take, is the risk we trade with your coins. Currently we're doing that (better said the man who is doing the trades) very well and you could know, that the more money you have, the more profit you can make.

So, if I take that risk and lose, how can I tell that some actual investment in fact lost money rather than that you just decided to keep my money?

I agree that the project can be viewed as a 'Stock Generation' and we're willing to do anything to proof that this view is false.

Isn't is kind of strange how you look *exactly* like a scam in every way?

Again, please tell me how to convince you, that we're honest (Besides all that satisfied users over the years. A 'Stock Generation' can just be run to a limited amount of time, please correct me if I'm wrong).

I don't think you can. As I said, your offer is pretty much incapable of being legitimate. It says there is high risk but does not say precisely what the risk is. It specifically allows you to just say "sorry, you lost money" and you can keep 75% of deposits for any reason, or no reason. How can that not be a scam?

We're not trying to scam anybody, we are just trying to share our experience in trading with other users that trusts us.

If you're not trying to scam anyone, why does your offer bear such a perfect resemblance to a scam? Honestly, this is even worse than Pirate, IMO. You've basically specifically retained the right to take 75% of deposits in the high risk fund just because you feel like it. What honest person would draft terms that retained for themselves that right?

P.S.: Did you notice the fact, that MyBitcointrade is run out of Germany, with a valid imprint?
Imo if this would be something like a 'Stock Generation', i would run it from outside EU, but i don't know if btc is affected by it.
I'm still thinking about how to proof that the risk isn't like it is in a 'Stock Generation', do you have a possible solution?
I can just give you words, but I think some screenshots or transferlogs could clear things out.... So any idea how to proof our honesty?
We are also identified via ID Card by one of the most trusted users here on board, if you know how to do more, please let me/us know it.

It would take your to change your offer so that it looks like a legitimate investment and not a scam. Investors would have to know what investments they are holding, how much they paid for them, and how much they are worth, on a regular basis. There has to be some way to assess risk on a regular basis, not take your word that it is "high" or "low". If investors lose money, they need to know *why* they lost money..

That's how legitimate investments operate and honestly it doesn't seem like you have any interest in being one of those. And bluntly, I can't imagine why any legitimate investment service would denominate investments in BTC right now. For one thing, you're competing with Ponzi schemes. For another thing, it forces you into a strategy that loses if bitcoins go up in price. It just doesn't make sense for a legitimate operation.

[support_en.mybitcointrade]

I can't give you more than a word, that we are using the coins for investments and speculation.

That's pretty worrisome, don't you think?

Kind of worrisome, true. But not something i need really to worry about. It's just like you don't want to trust in a 'unbelievable' offer, i can fully understand and i like to convince you from my/our 'truth', but in fact, we're not in need of it. (Sounds bit to hard, but that are actually the facts to me).

The risk you take, is the risk we trade with your coins. Currently we're doing that (better said the man who is doing the trades) very well and you could know, that the more money you have, the more profit you can make.

So, if I take that risk and lose, how can I tell that some actual investment in fact lost money rather than that you just decided to keep my money?

Currently we're looking for a solution to proof trading w/o risking to show too much. Up to this day, it's truely nothing more than just a written word in a forum and a huge amount of satisfied users.

I agree that the project can be viewed as a 'Stock Generation' and we're willing to do anything to proof that this view is false.

Isn't is kind of strange how you look *exactly* like a scam in every way?

It's strange yes, but until you mentioned something about a 'Stock Generation' i didn't even know something about it. Even if I had known it, i guess we wouldn't operat different, just because it's currently working and (again) we are satisfying our users. Of course it isn't our goal to be look like a big scam, but as it seems we do to you. I'm truely sorry for that fact, but as mentioned again and again there is currently no way how to 100% prove the opposite and i can't and don't like to change your personal oppinion.

Again, please tell me how to convince you, that we're honest (Besides all that satisfied users over the years. A 'Stock Generation' can just be run to a limited amount of time, please correct me if I'm wrong).

I don't think you can. As I said, your offer is pretty much incapable of being legitimate. It says there is high risk but does not say precisely what the risk is. It specifically allows you to just say "sorry, you lost money" and you can keep 75% of deposits for any reason, or no reason. How can that not be a scam?

By trading bitcoins very effectively. It's just that risk.
If I wouldn't be convinced or won't trust the admins, I guess I would think the pretty same way as you do (just personal oppinion).

We're not trying to scam anybody, we are just trying to share our experience in trading with other users that trusts us.

If you're not trying to scam anyone, why does your offer bear such a perfect resemblance to a scam? Honestly, this is even worse than Pirate, IMO. You've basically specifically retained the right to take 75% of deposits in the high risk fund just because you feel like it. What honest person would draft terms that retained for themselves that right?

[/quote]
I think i've said enough to your points above.

P.S.: Did you notice the fact, that MyBitcointrade is run out of Germany, with a valid imprint?
Imo if this would be something like a 'Stock Generation', i would run it from outside EU, but i don't know if btc is affected by it.
I'm still thinking about how to proof that the risk isn't like it is in a 'Stock Generation', do you have a possible solution?
I can just give you words, but I think some screenshots or transferlogs could clear things out.... So any idea how to proof our honesty?
We are also identified via ID Card by one of the most trusted users here on board, if you know how to do more, please let me/us know it.

It would take your to change your offer so that it looks like a legitimate investment and not a scam. Investors would have to know what investments they are holding, how much they paid for them, and how much they are worth, on a regular basis. There has to be some way to assess risk on a regular basis, not take your word that it is "high" or "low". If investors lose money, they need to know *why* they lost money..

I tried to clear that points, everything else goes to personal oppinion or just the little trust in the revolution of the bitcoins, not every person out there is bad (even if it goes to money)

That's how legitimate investments operate and honestly it doesn't seem like you have any interest in being one of those. And bluntly, I can't imagine why any legitimate investment service would denominate investments in BTC right now. For one thing, you're competing with Ponzi schemes. For another thing, it forces you into a strategy that loses if bitcoins go up in price. It just doesn't make sense for a legitimate operation.

Once again, tell me how to and i'll prove the opposite and i'll proof that this is honest work from honest people, who are just trying to make some money with your money and give you something back for your trust and investment.

Regards
Simon

[JoelKatz]

By trading bitcoins very effectively. It's just that risk.

Hey, can I borrow $500 to play the slot machines? It's very risky, but if I turn it into $2,000, I'll give you back $1,000. It's high risk, but you could double your money in just a day.

Oh, and if I lose all your money, I won't even provide you any proof that I lost them on the slot machines. You'll just have to take my word for it.

Honestly, it's stunning to me that you've found people stupid enough to fall for this. My hat is off to you sir.

[Retard]

By trading bitcoins very effectively. It's just that risk.

Hey, can I borrow $500 to play the slot machines? It's very risky, but if I turn it into $2,000, I'll give you back $1,000. It's high risk, but you could double your money in just a day.

Oh, and if I lose all your money, I won't even provide you any proof that I lost them on the slot machines. You'll just have to take my word for it.

Honestly, it's stunning to me that you've found people stupid enough to fall for this. My hat is off to you sir.

if you can show me you only win the last year and payback more then 5000 interrests, Yes i give you 500 $.

best regards
smart

[JoelKatz]

if you can show me you only win the last year and payback more then 5000 interrests, Yes i give you 500 $.

I don't know if you're playing dumb or you are dumb, but either way, it's not going to inspire much confidence.

You can only infer future performance from past results if you understand how the past results were accomplished. If you send 1,000 people into a casino to play slots, one of them probably will do so well that the odds of him achieving those results by chance are 1 in 1,000. Does that mean you should back that guy's next day of slots?

[gene]

Joel, I don't know about you, but I know I feel better knowing that ZiggiStar (completely integrated in their team) has a AAA- rating from that paragon of honesty and integrity, PatrickHarnett!

We also want to announce, that up from next month ZiggiStar will be completely integrated in our team and projects. Besides this, we're happy that ZiggiStar got an AAA- rating from PatrickHarnett in following thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81542.0

Honestly, it's stunning to me that you've found people stupid enough to fall for this. My hat is off to you sir.

You must be joking. These hucksters have found the mother lode of marks.

[PatrickHarnett]

Joel, I don't know about you, but I know I feel better knowing that ZiggiStar (completely integrated in their team) has a AAA- rating from that paragon of honesty and integrity, PatrickHarnett!

gene, your sarcasm is misguided, but obviously you think I am dishonest and have no integrity.  Also if you bother to read the posts properly you will see it is not AAA- but AA- as I added in some additional discriminating factors into the WPW CR process.

Also, the rating is related to the issuer and not the issue and relates more specifically to the bank-book and not the projects.  The disclosed liabilities to assets ratio is around 70% and the size of the business is a bit less than 10k coins.  Personally, I consider some of the projects are high return and high risk, the transparency is not there.  Accordingly I do not have exposure to those investments.

I considered Joel's questions and debate in this thread to be informative and useful - Thank you Joel.

edit: I was interested enough to find out what I might have done to piss-off gene.  Other than the fact he was absent for the last eight months, the current post pattern and content appears entirely consistent with his earlier 2011 material and he appears to hate everyone.