[ANN][CRW] CROWN (MN-PoS) | Platform | NFT framework | Governance | Masternodes

[higherbridge]

I think your beliefs are correct We're really focused on being a sustainable platform, trying to work with the law instead of avoiding it. That's why darksend (anonymous transactions) has been removed from the code and we're working on providing a legal structure to protect both  Masternode hosts and the platform in general.

There's some awesome things happening with CROWN right now, it's very exciting! What kind of legal problems do you forsee for masternode holders, and how would a legal structure solve them?  Does the location of the masternode have a bearing on this - eg if you found places that permit them or don't want taxes for them, would you recommend people to host there?

EDIT: I skipped a bit of basic explanation. Consider reading defunctec's post below first

I don't think I'm the best person to explain this, but what it (in my understanding) boils down to is the following:
Crown wants to be a platform where any legal application can be hosted indefinitely. The definition of 'legal' changes from place to place though. And then there's the question of (like you asked) whether it's the location of the server or the business address of the hoster that defines the jurisdiction the Tron falls under.
For example, an issue would arise if someone decided to host an application on a tron that is actually illegal. There needs to be some policy so that these applications can legally be taken down - like any other website - by the law enforcement of the jurisdiction they fall under. There will also need to be some structure to ensure that the platform/network as a whole doesn't suffer from such an event (kind of like how some BTC brokers were arrested because 'Bitcoin is used in the black market').

As to your last question: no - we probably won't recommend people to host in a certain place. That's because we don't really like telling people what to do, except to be creative, experiment and "Build Your Kingdom"

[1714019656]

1714019656

[1714019656]

1714019656

[1714019656]

1714019656

[1714019656]

1714019656

[1714019656]

1714019656

[realdefunctec]

I think your beliefs are correct We're really focused on being a sustainable platform, trying to work with the law instead of avoiding it. That's why darksend (anonymous transactions) has been removed from the code and we're working on providing a legal structure to protect both  Masternode hosts and the platform in general.

There's some awesome things happening with CROWN right now, it's very exciting! What kind of legal problems do you forsee for masternode holders, and how would a legal structure solve them?  Does the location of the masternode have a bearing on this - eg if you found places that permit them or don't want taxes for them, would you recommend people to host there?

You ask a very intuitive question. I will try my best to clear a few things up..

Masternodes without the capability of mixing tokens (darksend) which infernoman and hypermist have already done, are just fine.

Crown masternodes will have the choice to become a server provider to anyone they choose. We're currently working on Op_Codes that will form the "Development Tools" of which can be used to develop any sort of business on a masternode.

The legal issue is very Importent, one just needs to take a look at the recent ICO/SEC/China drama to see the need for legal frameworks by both public and authorities.
So we take this quite seriously..

Eg..
Masternode is contoled by Person A, Person A acquires a licence from an official Crown licensor within the UK. This gives Person A access to development tools which can be used to build applications on Person A's masternode.

Person A can offer the ability to build on top of the masternodes to Person B, for a fee. Person B will need to sign a user agreement with Person A to assure person A that nothing outside of the user agreement will be performed.

The user agreement will be drawn up by Person A and will reflect the laws of which county Person A resides in.

If person A finds that person B is operating outside the user agreement, Person A can decide to close they're contract, ending what ever operations person B is conducting.

I'm sure someone can explain this even better than myself, but this is my basic understanding.

[btct22]

Thank you for taking the time to explain this, it is a more complex topic than it first seems.  

Would the contracts be implemented on the block chain as well so that there say could be some arbitrators, or a voting type system where certain parties vote to shut down an app rather than the centralized approach.  Or does that interfere with the legal structure because there's no one company or individual responsible for contract enforcement? 

eg say someone uses the nodes for gratuitous spamming or network attacks, could Person A cast a vote to shutdown Person B with an explanation why and then a bunch of highly regarded nodes or arbitrators can all vote based on the presented facts (maybe from both parties) and the app gets shut down if enough votes say "this is a bad app"?  Or would the parent UK licence provider step into the picture along with Person A to deal with a bad Person B's app?

Also how would it work if it was a distributed app running on many nodes and across several borders and legal jurisdictions?   Or will this not be possible?  That seems a bit limiting if so, because then it's a bit like dealing with a data centre for leasing servers without the true distributed computing power that a larger network could provide.

[crowncoin_knight]

I am thinking about buying some coins aswell.
New member on this forum and created an account so i can ask some questions

I am thinking about buying like 100 coins.
Question: can they be ''put to work'' in a service node? I like the idea of mining coins with coins i have.

First of all: welcome!

As of yet, a Tron Masternode can be set up for 10,000 CRW, which will mine approx. 4.5-9 CRW per day. In the future, there will be a second type of node which will require less staking (somewhere in the hundreds of CRW, possibly). Hope that answers your question!
You can also join us at https://mm.crownlab.eu if you'd like more real-time answers to your questions.

Thanks! That does answer my question. Ill probably invest somewhere by the end of this week. The thing that really draw my attention is that about 75% of crown is in trons, which means alot of ppl are holders instead of traders. I believe this will lead to a more dedicated community within crown.

yeah, actually nearly 79pct of all coins are locked in Tron masternodes, which shows exactly what you are saying - a dedicated community who have more long term views and pushes the core team in its effort to create other uses for the Crown platform. Thats basically the aim - Tron operators becoming future internet companies.

[Vivacia]

''Crown masternodes will have the choice to become a server provider to anyone they choose. We're currently working on Op_Codes that will form the "Development Tools" of which can be used to develop any sort of business on a masternode. ''

I have to agree on this being more complex than i first thought i was. Thats pretty cool actually, all the more reason for me to see where this leads..

[urban_idler]

Thank you for taking the time to explain this, it is a more complex topic than it first seems.  

Would the contracts be implemented on the block chain as well so that there say could be some arbitrators, or a voting type system where certain parties vote to shut down an app rather than the centralized approach.  Or does that interfere with the legal structure because there's no one company or individual responsible for contract enforcement?

eg say someone uses the nodes for gratuitous spamming or network attacks, could Person A cast a vote to shutdown Person B with an explanation why and then a bunch of highly regarded nodes or arbitrators can all vote based on the presented facts (maybe from both parties) and the app gets shut down if enough votes say "this is a bad app"?  Or would the parent UK licence provider step into the picture along with Person A to deal with a bad Person B's app?

Also how would it work if it was a distributed app running on many nodes and across several borders and legal jurisdictions?   Or will this not be possible?  That seems a bit limiting if so, because then it's a bit like dealing with a data centre for leasing servers without the true distributed computing power that a larger network could provide.

What is tricky is that we are trying to create a distributed structure -- but the network itself is the "central" dependency.  Try not to think of what we are doing in terms of what ethereum created with contracts -- that is a horrible bastardization of things (IMHO).  All we are trying to do is to create a system of bilateral at will agreements which could be rescinded by either party at any time.... so that a "contract" in the Crown Network is deliberately fragile, whereas a "contract" in ETH is like Proud Words in Carl Sandburg's Primer Lesson....  The contracts in the Crown sense are just a multi-sig process used to represent or reference a specific text or legal agreement which exists in a storage structure off chain.

What all this begins with will be a non-profit being formed in a given legal jurisdiction, and that non-profit making a proposal to the network to represent it / or act as an agent of the network in specific ways, in the relevant legal jurisdiction. The idea is to create a "legal template" for a non-profit and then allow those by-laws / articles of incorporation / etc... to be cloned or copied in different legal jurisdictions.  No agent of the network would ever have an exclusive geography, so there could be multiple competing "agents" offering the same services -- like licensing masternodes or titling assets or whatever process they designed.  The initial focus is on trying to get non-profits set up for the US, EU and UK as we also develop the software capabilities which we need the legal functions we believe this structure will provide.

So around the core network, we would hope to develop another layer of non-profit entities in different geographies which provide a "bridge" between the ability of hashes to represent information the blockchain to record and secure information, and different legal systems.  We have landed on this solution because of the obvious problems with having one non-profit foundation as the "exclusive" representative of the network -- as is the standard currently in leading projects.

Masternode operators will be able to get a license to offer applications to the Crown Network from one of the non-profits representing the network -- a privilege which really just lets them define and collect fees and then be the "bridge" to applications which the node operator may or may not also be provisioning.  But then the masternode can cancel the license, or the non-profit can cancel the license.  There should probably be some cause for cancellation -- but I would rather not put any requirement in -- I would rather conceive of these "contracts" as bilateral at will agreements.  In this way, the non-profit is responsible for itself and the masternode is responsible for itself.  A key function of this structure is to be able to isolate legal risk and responsibility -- a notable weakness of the existing "smart contract" structures and a feature which seems more dumb than smart.  We need this sort of structure because although the network is global, legal systems and jurisdictions aren't -- so you need to be able to have a structure that can be as messy as the map of legal jurisdictions.  This is abhorrent from a logical elegance perspective -- but it is very human.

Hope that makes some sense.  It all gives me a headache and I am looking forward to getting the different pieces of this system up and running so that we can see how it works and adapt.  

I don't think we really know what will work yet -- all we are trying to do with Crown is set up a platform that will let a bunch of people run a bunch of different experiments.  This is the big idea.  All the other crypto projects seem to think the answer is for them to push their one brilliant idea on the world.  Crown is about building something to let everyone in the world be able to come and try out their brilliant ideas -- because we are just smart enough to know that there are a lot of people smarter than we are... and we are actually curious what people will do with it.

But we also want everyone to be able to keep whatever they create -- and that doesn't work if we piss off every government in the world -- so we are trying to create different bridging structures.  But the idea in the long-term is to help create new legal interpretations and not to just passively interpret the law.  It all ends up being complicated, but it's a fun puzzle.  

In terms of how this would work with a distributed app running across many nodes and jurisdictions -- well, it would work the same way it works now -- that distributed app is actually under the purview of every jurisdiction it is operating in.  We won't be changing anything about the basic structure of law.  I would point out that if you understand how jurisdiction works, then you instantly should see how ethereum cannot ever be legal.... or the only legal use of ethereum is as a corporate or state control system within a jurisdiction, because it's absence of a concept of jurisdiction means that it cannot (as currently architected) ever be able to bend to the differences in legal codes in different states. The implicit assumption of ethereum is that nation states will bend to it. 

In the system we are attempting to build for Crown, each masternode has the responsibility for complying with the laws in it's legal jurisdiction -- or where the individual or business running the node is domiciled/operates.  If an app needs to run across multiple jurisdictions, then that is a consideration for the application designer.  It is not an issue for the network -- the network will have set up a contract structure to protect it from these risks.    As a practical matter, as long as an application isn't facilitating criminal activity, which would be a violation of the licensing agreement and if a masternode ran an application that provided support for a criminal network, it would be the responsibility of the non-profit which issued the license to rescind it...

This whole discussion can get heated and idealistic -- but we are just trying to be pragmatic and take the world as it is, so that we can play a role in creating what it will be. 

[btct22]

How does it work legally with network interconnections like the internet and these kinds of laws eg https://www.translegal.com/lesson/6024 - could Crown be seen as an ISP of sorts?  Or a similar thing with the big international interconnects of cables and satellites and agreements regarding liability of content and users actions etc.

And who pays for the non-profits to operate, is that a "network service" or is that what the masternodes rewards will be for and node operators pay to set up a template organisation and run it?

I've just read more of the white papers, but it's still not clear to me how the node applications work.  Are they written in a specific language and run on a JIT compiler, or is it more of a Docker or hypervisor environment where there's VMs that do stuff and licence and pay for themselves and their resource usage in Crown?  

Also have you looked at the way SIA coin contracts work between the customer and the storage provider, I think they are bilateral in nature and pretty interesting.  Also the way SIA encrypts content would prevent a storage provider from knowing what was on their hard drives, so they probably couldn't be found liable for a user backing up a copy of a movie.

[urban_idler]

How does it work legally with network interconnections like the internet and these kinds of laws eg https://www.translegal.com/lesson/6024 - could Crown be seen as an ISP of sorts?  Or a similar thing with the big international interconnects of cables and satellites and agreements regarding liability of content and users actions etc.

And who pays for the non-profits to operate, is that a "network service" or is that what the masternodes rewards will be for and node operators pay to set up a template organisation and run it?

I've just read more of the white papers, but it's still not clear to me how the node applications work.  Are they written in a specific language and run on a JIT compiler, or is it more of a Docker or hypervisor environment where there's VMs that do stuff and licence and pay for themselves and their resource usage in Crown?  

Also have you looked at the way SIA coin contracts work between the customer and the storage provider, I think they are bilateral in nature and pretty interesting.  Also the way SIA encrypts content would prevent a storage provider from knowing what was on their hard drives, so they probably couldn't be found liable for a user backing up a copy of a movie.

good questions -- will check out SIA. 

in terms of applications -- just think of the nodes as gateways -- we are just using them to do payment and user management -- treating the blockchain as an open pki... in terms of how the applications will be implemented or provisioned -- there are no specific constraints beyond that a user is functionally signing on to a cloud application.  That application may or may not be provisioned and managed by the masternode.

We have preferences -- ideally people would run open source applications and all the resources would be provisioned by the masternodes... but we also do not believe in telling the node operators how to run their businesses beyond requiring them to comply with the relevant laws.

And yes -- all user data in applications would need to be encrypted at rest with the keys in the possession of the user not the application provider or the node operator.  This is a US legal requirement and I believe also applies in the EU and is just a best practice. 

Hope that answers things.  I'm on cali time and need to crash... feel free to join the mattermost (mm.crownlab.eu) and keep asking questions or offering ideas.  That's how we learn and improve.

g'night!

[urban_idler]

How does it work legally with network interconnections like the internet and these kinds of laws eg https://www.translegal.com/lesson/6024 - could Crown be seen as an ISP of sorts?  Or a similar thing with the big international interconnects of cables and satellites and agreements regarding liability of content and users actions etc.

And who pays for the non-profits to operate, is that a "network service" or is that what the masternodes rewards will be for and node operators pay to set up a template organisation and run it?

I've just read more of the white papers, but it's still not clear to me how the node applications work.  Are they written in a specific language and run on a JIT compiler, or is it more of a Docker or hypervisor environment where there's VMs that do stuff and licence and pay for themselves and their resource usage in Crown?  

Also have you looked at the way SIA coin contracts work between the customer and the storage provider, I think they are bilateral in nature and pretty interesting.  Also the way SIA encrypts content would prevent a storage provider from knowing what was on their hard drives, so they probably couldn't be found liable for a user backing up a copy of a movie.

good questions -- will check out SIA. 

in terms of applications -- just think of the nodes as gateways -- we are just using them to do payment and user management -- treating the blockchain as an open pki... in terms of how the applications will be implemented or provisioned -- there are no specific constraints beyond that a user is functionally signing on to a cloud application.  That application may or may not be provisioned and managed by the masternode.

We have preferences -- ideally people would run open source applications and all the resources would be provisioned by the masternodes... but we also do not believe in telling the node operators how to run their businesses beyond requiring them to comply with the relevant laws.

And yes -- all user data in applications would need to be encrypted at rest with the keys in the possession of the user not the application provider or the node operator.  This is a US legal requirement and I believe also applies in the EU and is just a best practice. 

Hope that answers things.  I'm on cali time and need to crash... feel free to join the mattermost (mm.crownlab.eu) and keep asking questions or offering ideas.  That's how we learn and improve.

g'night!

and yes -- the papers are vague and dated at this point.  but the ideas and principles are genuine and haven't changed -- and the points in the knowledge are all still relevant.

we have learned a lot since last December when most of the papers were drafted...  apologies that their isn't more technical detail yet -- our documentation and specification deficiency is something that a few of the new team members will be able to address.  the new guys just don't quite have the confidence yet to fully assert themselves but I think they will get comfortable soon.

people seem to be thrown by a friendly, relatively humble group of people working on a crypto project and it takes them a while to believe that is actually what's going on...

[Vivacia]

I am thinking about buying some coins aswell.
New member on this forum and created an account so i can ask some questions

I am thinking about buying like 100 coins.
Question: can they be ''put to work'' in a service node? I like the idea of mining coins with coins i have.

First of all: welcome!

As of yet, a Tron Masternode can be set up for 10,000 CRW, which will mine approx. 4.5-9 CRW per day. In the future, there will be a second type of node which will require less staking (somewhere in the hundreds of CRW, possibly). Hope that answers your question!
You can also join us at https://mm.crownlab.eu if you'd like more real-time answers to your questions.

Thanks! That does answer my question. Ill probably invest somewhere by the end of this week. The thing that really draw my attention is that about 75% of crown is in trons, which means alot of ppl are holders instead of traders. I believe this will lead to a more dedicated community within crown.

yeah, actually nearly 79pct of all coins are locked in Tron masternodes, which shows exactly what you are saying - a dedicated community who have more long term views and pushes the core team in its effort to create other uses for the Crown platform. Thats basically the aim - Tron operators becoming future internet companies.

Basically, if there is not much crown offered to others, im guessing the price can go up really fast since most of it is not being sold. Supply/demand kind of story.

This just got a lot more intresting for me. if this really picks up who knows where it will end!

[dzlbobo]

SUPER MOON!

haha this is brilliant!

[LucD88]

CRW hashrate reached 1400 ph/s last night

15pct of BTC miners are mining Crown now

That's impressive.. Seems we're in the third spot of most network hashrate: https://www.coinwarz.com/cryptocurrency?sort=hashrate&dir=desc

Basically, if there is not much crown offered to others, im guessing the price can go up really fast since most of it is not being sold. Supply/demand kind of story.

This just got a lot more intresting for me. if this really picks up who knows where it will end!

Something like that, yes. Incentivising people to 'lock' CRW in Trons creates scarcity on the market. This will intensify once Service Nodes are released in the coming weeks/months, allowing people to 'lock' CRW in much smaller amounts.

and yes -- the papers are vague and dated at this point.  but the ideas and principles are genuine and haven't changed -- and the points in the knowledge are all still relevant.

...

Agreed. Once Crown Atomic has been released, are there any plans to rewrite the papers and making them less vague?

[realdefunctec]

SUPER MOON!

haha this is brilliant!

I wish sitonmythrone could be around more, he cracks me up!

[Maleda]

Today we had Crown meeting of Czech Community. Thank you to all participans, it was fine .
Here is the link for photos https://www.zonerama.com/martinfiala81/Album/3751848?secret=mWM2Uo7E2763b108TRaHNjEGs

[crowncoin_knight]

Today we had Crown meeting of Czech Community. Thank you to all participans, it was fine .
Here is the link for photos https://www.zonerama.com/martinfiala81/Album/3751848?secret=mWM2Uo7E2763b108TRaHNjEGs

Maleda thank you for sharing, its awesome to see the Czech community growing in Pardubice and Hradec Kralove region 

[tommyj11]

Today we had Crown meeting of Czech Community. Thank you to all participans, it was fine .
Here is the link for photos https://www.zonerama.com/martinfiala81/Album/3751848?secret=mWM2Uo7E2763b108TRaHNjEGs

Maleda thank you for sharing, its awesome to see the Czech community growing in Pardubice and Hradec Kralove region 

great to see a growing community, hope to see more and be able to participate in the future

BTW im the real tommyj1, my other account is in the hands of a russian that needed a sr account

[have lada]

This is great timing to take risk on this project I hope this will go to the moon.

[stonehedge]

There is a decent mention of Crown  in this Institutional Investor article.

Institutional Investor is a fairly grown up niche magazine read by about 100,000 people.

http://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/3751923/banking-and-capital-markets-banking/a-hackers-guide-to-destroying-the-global-economy.html?ArticleId=3751923&single=true#.WcTIU8h94Rk

Big thanks to Urban_Idler for sharing his views on decentralization before the interview happened.  Inspiring stuff.

[tommyj11]

There is a decent mention of Crown  in this Institutional Investor article.

Institutional Investor is a fairly grown up niche magazine read by about 100,000 people.

http://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/3751923/banking-and-capital-markets-banking/a-hackers-guide-to-destroying-the-global-economy.html?ArticleId=3751923&single=true#.WcTIU8h94Rk

Big thanks to Urban_Idler for sharing his views on decentralization before the interview happened.  Inspiring stuff.

interesting read! nice job with the interview stone

[crowncoin_knight]

There is a decent mention of Crown  in this Institutional Investor article.

Institutional Investor is a fairly grown up niche magazine read by about 100,000 people.

http://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/3751923/banking-and-capital-markets-banking/a-hackers-guide-to-destroying-the-global-economy.html?ArticleId=3751923&single=true#.WcTIU8h94Rk

Big thanks to Urban_Idler for sharing his views on decentralization before the interview happened.  Inspiring stuff.

interesting read! nice job with the interview stone

Awesome to see Crown talked in reputable investor media! Thank you stonehedge and urban Idler