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Bitcoin Oz
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September 26, 2012, 06:42:13 AM
 #21

I agree that it could have been handled better -- more securely. But that post simply suggests that there could be problems. Anyway, it seems pretty simple to me, though it is a big hassle for Goat and his shareholders.
Yes there could be problems and this could end up in a disaster.
Yep... could end up in disaster, certainly...

However, since GLBSE doesn't manage your asset-holder lists for you anymore, there is no longer someone else to blame and use as a scapegoat, so any disaster from this point forward will be your own fault, and yours alone.

-- Smoov


I do not think you read the post. There is no way to assure the shareholders, Nefario, or myself will be honest. When things go wrong who will be blame? Might be anyone of us not being honest, or maybe all of us.

This system is fail. Please reread it. And if you really do not understand it or have a problem with it, please post in that thread because I would like the author to respond to you directly.

Thank you.

You have been provided with all you need to migrate to a new exchange. You cant blame glbse for your laziness in failing to do so.

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September 26, 2012, 06:56:40 AM
 #22

Yep... could end up in disaster, certainly...

However, since GLBSE doesn't manage your asset-holder lists for you anymore, there is no longer someone else to blame and use as a scapegoat, so any disaster from this point forward will be your own fault, and yours alone.
I do not think you read the post. There is no way to assure the shareholders, Nefario, or myself will be honest. When things go wrong who will be blame? Might be anyone of us not being honest, or maybe all of us.

This system is fail. Please reread it. And if you really do not understand it or have a problem with it, please post in that thread because I would like the author to respond to you directly.

Thank you.
I'll post where I please, tyvm, and since this is where the conversation I'm replying to is happening, this is where I'm replying.

There is nothing wrong with the system, and I understand it perfectly, as do you.

The only difference is, I'm not pretending that I don't understand it.

You brought this situation on yourself, and now you have to manage your own asset-holder lists and dividends, manually. When things go wrong, who will we blame? You of course. You lost your scapegoat. You no longer have someone else managing it for you.

You and I already tossed this around in IRC and you're still perpetuating this fiction that Nefario is  holding your remaining BTC balance hostage, and that all of the assets are still on GLBSE, which are untrue.

You won't supply an address to have your remaining BTC balance sent to, so the only person preventing you from reclaiming your remaining BTC, is you.

GLBSE never had possession of the assets of your listings. All it did, was keep track of who owned what, and facilitated trading the shares between the people who wanted to buy or sell them, but the exchange never owned or had possession of them.

You have enough information to match up asset-holders to the quantities on the list you were sent, and just because you aren't happy with the way the list was sent to you, is immaterial.

Now quit being a whiney bitch, man up, and handle your business, and knock it off with this stupid-act you're playing, trying to start a public brawl.

If you had kept your dispute with Nefario private, in PM, maybe with a 3rd party acting as a mediator, you may have ended up with a better result, but this isn't your M.O.

You are your own worst enemy in this, and brought this all upon yourself.

Sorry, Goat, but you over-played your hand this time.

-- Smoov
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September 26, 2012, 07:16:05 AM
 #23

Yep... could end up in disaster, certainly...

However, since GLBSE doesn't manage your asset-holder lists for you anymore, there is no longer someone else to blame and use as a scapegoat, so any disaster from this point forward will be your own fault, and yours alone.
I do not think you read the post. There is no way to assure the shareholders, Nefario, or myself will be honest. When things go wrong who will be blame? Might be anyone of us not being honest, or maybe all of us.

This system is fail. Please reread it. And if you really do not understand it or have a problem with it, please post in that thread because I would like the author to respond to you directly.

Thank you.
I'll post where I please, tyvm, and since this is where the conversation I'm replying to is happening, this is where I'm replying.

There is nothing wrong with the system, and I understand it perfectly, as do you.

The only difference is, I'm not pretending that I don't understand it.

You brought this situation on yourself, and now you have to manage your own asset-holder lists and dividends, manually. When things go wrong, who will we blame? You of course. You lost your scapegoat. You no longer have someone else managing it for you.

You and I already tossed this around in IRC and you're still perpetuating this fiction that Nefario is  holding your remaining BTC balance hostage, and that all of the assets are still on GLBSE, which are untrue.

You won't supply an address to have your remaining BTC balance sent to, so the only person preventing you from reclaiming your remaining BTC, is you.

GLBSE never had possession of the assets of your listings. All it did, was keep track of who owned what, and facilitated trading the shares between the people who wanted to buy or sell them, but the exchange never owned or had possession of them.

You have enough information to match up asset-holders to the quantities on the list you were sent, and just because you aren't happy with the way the list was sent to you, is immaterial.

Now quit being a whiney bitch, man up, and handle your business, and knock it off with this stupid-act you're playing, trying to start a public brawl.

If you had kept your dispute with Nefario private, in PM, maybe with a 3rd party acting as a mediator, you may have ended up with a better result, but this isn't your M.O.

You are your own worst enemy in this, and brought this all upon yourself.

Sorry, Goat, but you over-played your hand this time.

-- Smoov


I wanted to quote this so you could not delete it later.   Thank you.
Oh, nice, now you pretend that I go around hiding my posts and deleting them.

I haven't deleted a single post in my life, and everything I said, I stand behind.

I'll say it all again in other venues if you wish, just to get it all well distributed if you like.

In fact, how about I make up some hardcopy for you while I'm at it?

What kind of font do you like?

Get a grip, Goat...

-- Smoov
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September 26, 2012, 07:22:26 AM
 #24

The fact is Goat wants to remain an anonymous entity because he doesnt want to be held personally responsible for his securities if they fail.

The days of anonymous entities listing shares on glbse is effectively over, you have been told this quite clearly.

Why do you not want your asset holders knowing who you are? Do you have something to hide or are you worried that ll the people who have lost money investing in you will hold you responsible ?


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September 26, 2012, 08:11:22 AM
 #25

@ Smoovious your concerns were logically answered.
Hardly...
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The GLBSE code system will never be used and no one but a few will think it should.
Then you would be abandoning your duty to your asset-holders.
Quote
It would be like me taking the codes and converting it not to BTC but converting back into a different code and then telling the people to take it to GLBSE to collect my BTC.
No, it wouldn't be like that at all, and why would people take it to GLBSE to collect BTC? Your issue isn't listed there anymore.

GLBSE has nothing else to do with your issues, other than to give the asset-holders the claim codes linked to the asset counts on your list, at the time of delisting.

-- Smoov
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September 26, 2012, 08:32:00 AM
 #26

Then you would be abandoning your duty to your asset-holders.
You mean GLBSE's customers, right? Goat doesn't even have any idea who they are.

I am an employee of Ripple.
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September 26, 2012, 08:38:21 AM
 #27

@ Smoovious your concerns were logically answered. The GLBSE code system will never be used and no one but a few will think it should.

It would be like me taking the codes and converting it not to BTC but converting back into a different code and then telling the people to take it to GLBSE to collect my BTC.

@ bitcoin.me I am not as Anon as you might think. I have been around and many many people know who I am and where I live. I just did not want my passport photo in the hand of Nefario cuz I assumed at the drop of the hat he would just post them on the forum like he has done with others.

Nefario can not be trusted with codes nor passport photos...






*sigh
Thats beside the point I made.



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September 26, 2012, 08:47:08 AM
 #28

Then you would be abandoning your duty to your asset-holders.
You mean GLBSE's customers, right? Goat doesn't even have any idea who they are.
Ok, since you haven't been paying attention I'll walk you through it.

Goat was sent a list of claim codes, and the # of shares associated with those codes. That alone, is all he needs, to know the breakdown of the shares.

On your portfolio page, the TYGRR assets now show "Delisted", with a "Click here for info." link.

On the info page, you will find the # of shares you had at the time of the delisting, your claim code, which will match the entry on the list Goat now has.

You are also supplied with the username of the asset issuer, as well as the contact email address that was on file.

Any further dealings with the issue, are no longer being facilitated by GLBSE, and you now have to deal with Goat directly, when trading your shares, and collecting dividends.

Any dividends earned by shares that haven't been claimed yet, should be set aside, preferably with an escrow, so when those shares are claimed, the dividends they have earned, can be distributed to the proper owner of those shares.

Everyone has a unique claim code.

GLBSE continues to keep the info available about how many shares you had at the time trading of those issues stopped, for your benefit, but GLBSE no longer handles the accounting for Goat.

Goat now administers his issues personally, unless he gets the issues re-listed at another exchange, at which point the claim codes will allow him to get the shares allocated to the proper asset-holder's account at the new exchange, if the asset-holder has an account there.

-- Smoov


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September 26, 2012, 08:53:14 AM
 #29

Then you would be abandoning your duty to your asset-holders.
You mean GLBSE's customers, right? Goat doesn't even have any idea who they are.
Ok, since you haven't been paying attention I'll walk you through it.

Goat was sent a list of claim codes, and the # of shares associated with those codes. That alone, is all he needs, to know the breakdown of the shares.

On your portfolio page, the TYGRR assets now show "Delisted", with a "Click here for info." link.

On the info page, you will find the # of shares you had at the time of the delisting, your claim code, which will match the entry on the list Goat now has.

You are also supplied with the username of the asset issuer, as well as the contact email address that was on file.

Any further dealings with the issue, are no longer being facilitated by GLBSE, and you now have to deal with Goat directly, when trading your shares, and collecting dividends.

Any dividends earned by shares that haven't been claimed yet, should be set aside, preferably with an escrow, so when those shares are claimed, the dividends they have earned, can be distributed to the proper owner of those shares.

Everyone has a unique claim code.

GLBSE continues to keep the info available about how many shares you had at the time trading of those issues stopped, for your benefit, but GLBSE no longer handles the accounting for Goat.

Goat now administers his issues personally, unless he gets the issues re-listed at another exchange, at which point the claim codes will allow him to get the shares allocated to the proper asset-holder's account at the new exchange, if the asset-holder has an account there.

-- Smoov





This. He just needs to setup an asset on cryptostocks that has the same number of shares as the asset on glbse and then redeem peoples codes by transferring shares. I dont get why he cant understand or is refusing to look after his shit.

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September 26, 2012, 09:00:45 AM
 #30

This. He just needs to setup an asset on cryptostocks that has the same number of shares as the asset on glbse and then redeem peoples codes by transferring shares. I dont get why he cant understand or is refusing to look after his shit.
Oh, he understands, but is being deliberately obtuse, so he can continue trying to fan up this 'controversy' to try and damage Nefario and GLBSE over the fake shares he wanted Nefario to buy from him, at the price he wanted.

Now he's in tantrum-mode.

-- Smoov
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September 26, 2012, 09:28:33 AM
 #31

Goat was sent a list of claim codes, and the # of shares associated with those codes. That alone, is all he needs, to know the breakdown of the shares.
What does Goat do if he someone presents him one of those codes and then he receives a later claim using the same code that is accompanied by massive evidence documenting that that particular person held the security? Who is assuming this liability?

Quote
On the info page, you will find the # of shares you had at the time of the delisting, your claim code, which will match the entry on the list Goat now has.
How can Goat verify that? He is essentially being compelled to accept a representation from a party he has little reason to trust.

Quote
Any further dealings with the issue, are no longer being facilitated by GLBSE, and you now have to deal with Goat directly, when trading your shares, and collecting dividends.
In other words, GLBSE has abandoned their customers.

Quote
Everyone has a unique claim code.
How does Goat verify this? Or does he have to take your word for it?

Quote
Goat now administers his issues personally, unless he gets the issues re-listed at another exchange, at which point the claim codes will allow him to get the shares allocated to the proper asset-holder's account at the new exchange, if the asset-holder has an account there.
In other words, GLBSE has abandoned their customers. Goat is in a no win situation. If he refuses to honor the claim codes, he will be branded a scammer. If he agrees to honor the claim codes, he may encounter impossible situations with competing claims. Meanwhile, the customers who relied on GLBSE are in the cold as there appears to be little sign of cooperation -- frankly, from either side.

I am an employee of Ripple.
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September 26, 2012, 09:47:15 AM
 #32

Goat was sent a list of claim codes, and the # of shares associated with those codes. That alone, is all he needs, to know the breakdown of the shares.
What does Goat do if he someone presents him one of those codes and then he receives a later claim using the same code that is accompanied by massive evidence documenting that that particular person held the security? Who is assuming this liability?
He is of course... he should have crossed out the code with a #2 pencil to avoid double-crediting. And, he should work quickly to get as many people linked up to their claim codes as possible, as the longer he drags this out, the worse it gets.
Quote

Quote
On the info page, you will find the # of shares you had at the time of the delisting, your claim code, which will match the entry on the list Goat now has.
How can Goat verify that? He is essentially being compelled to accept a representation from a party he has little reason to trust.
He verifies it by comparing against the list. His trust issues, aren't relevant. He is manufacturing this controversy. As long as the codes and quantities people submit, match up with the list, I don't see what the problem is. As asset-holders, as this typical-goat thing drags on, he would be better off worrying about his own trust, instead of this attempt to cause Nefario and GLBSE harm the way he's doing.
Quote

Quote
Any further dealings with the issue, are no longer being facilitated by GLBSE, and you now have to deal with Goat directly, when trading your shares, and collecting dividends.
In other words, GLBSE has abandoned their customers.

Quote
Everyone has a unique claim code.
How does Goat verify this? Or does he have to take your word for it?

Quote
Goat now administers his issues personally, unless he gets the issues re-listed at another exchange, at which point the claim codes will allow him to get the shares allocated to the proper asset-holder's account at the new exchange, if the asset-holder has an account there.
In other words, GLBSE has abandoned their customers. Goat is in a no win situation. If he refuses to honor the claim codes, he will be branded a scammer. If he agrees to honor the claim codes, he may encounter impossible situations with competing claims. Meanwhile, the customers who relied on GLBSE are in the cold as there appears to be little sign of cooperation -- frankly, from either side.
GLBSE hasn't abandoned their customers. Goat and his issues have been evicted. This is a mess of Goat's creation. When he dragged their dispute out into the public to drag it through the mud, for the sole purpose of hurting Nefario and GLBSE, he earned the eviction.

If he refuses to honor the claim codes, then he deserves to be branded a scammer, for abandoning his fiduciary duty to his shareholders.

If he honors them, and he starts getting competing claims, which I don't see happening unless he let his computer get compromised, or someone's account on GLBSE got hacked, then if he was smart (which I am no longer sure about), he would hold onto those until the issue is resolved.

At this point, the only thing he should be doing, is be taking people's claim codes, along with their contact information, and building up his asset-holder list. Then, if duplicate claims are submitted, then those shares are put on hold until the dispute has been resolved... preferably privately, and not dragged through the forum...

Nobody has any right to expect any further cooperation from GLBSE, as they are no longer involved in managing Goat's issues. Goat has the share breakdowns with the claim codes, and all of the asset-holders can obtain their claim codes through the portfolio page. Nefario has met his duty at this point, and is no longer involved.

-- Smoov
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September 26, 2012, 02:24:51 PM
 #33

If he refuses to honor the claim codes, then he deserves to be branded a scammer, for abandoning his fiduciary duty to his shareholders.
So this means that if someone gives Goat a claim code that has already been used, he must honor it anyway, otherwise he will be branded a scammer. There's no way he can prove he actually issued the stock already based on the same claim code. And there's no way he can hold all the claims and issue at the same time because he has no way to contact claim code holders to arrange such a schedule.

Quote
If he honors them, and he starts getting competing claims, which I don't see happening unless he let his computer get compromised, or someone's account on GLBSE got hacked, then if he was smart (which I am no longer sure about), he would hold onto those until the issue is resolved.
How long should he wait? He has no way to contact claim code holders to work out a schedule. Do you see how ridiculous this is?

Quote
At this point, the only thing he should be doing, is be taking people's claim codes, along with their contact information, and building up his asset-holder list. Then, if duplicate claims are submitted, then those shares are put on hold until the dispute has been resolved... preferably privately, and not dragged through the forum...
And the mechanism for resolving those is ...? What?

Quote
Nobody has any right to expect any further cooperation from GLBSE, as they are no longer involved in managing Goat's issues.
In other words, GLBSE has abandoned their customers and unilaterally imposed a fundamentally broken and insecure claim code scheme on them. Yet they assume no liability whatsoever for the damages that will result from its obvious flaws and expect Goat to do so at his own risk. GLBSE had no right to convert a listed security into a bearer bond with no permission from either the issuer of that security or the holders of that security. In effect, GLBSE issued bearer bonds it now expects Goat to redeem in the absence of any agreement to that issue such bonds, any agreed upon scheme for redeeming them, or even any imaginable redemption scheme!

Congratulations, GLBSE. You are now on my list of companies that will make up new rules any time they feel like regardless of the consequences to their customers. On the bright side, you have lots of company.

I am an employee of Ripple.
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September 26, 2012, 05:35:56 PM
 #34

The asset has not been voided. It has been delisted from GLBSE.

I have to say, I'm pretty pissed about this. While Goat obviously doesn't care very much about his investors (or he would at least TRY to reassure us that he won't just keep our BTC and pout), I think the blame lands clearly on GLBSE.

I bought these bonds under the assumption that I would be able to trade them with other market participants, even if there was so little of a market to begin with. Now I can't even try to sell them back to Goat as there is no market price.

I have explained in numerous threads why this has been delisted.

How? When? To whom? I don't read EVERYTHING, how was I supposed to know about your personal feuds? And how come this mining bond is a "liability" while others aren't? How come HYIP assets aren't? How come frickin' OBSI.HRPT isn't?

What other assets are about to be delisted? Do I need to sell all GIGAMINING shares or risk them becoming worthless overnight? There needs to be more transparency here or I don't feel informed enough to trade on this platform.
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September 26, 2012, 05:42:21 PM
 #35

Also, while I do take responsibility for how I spend my BTC I still find it ironic that the only GLBSE-investment that ever made me any money was my short time in a Pirate-passthrough. That's my fault, but getting a big portion of my investment locked out of GLBSE without any warning is not.
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September 26, 2012, 09:30:37 PM
 #36

If he refuses to honor the claim codes, then he deserves to be branded a scammer, for abandoning his fiduciary duty to his shareholders.
So this means that if someone gives Goat a claim code that has already been used, he must honor it anyway, otherwise he will be branded a scammer. There's no way he can prove he actually issued the stock already based on the same claim code. And there's no way he can hold all the claims and issue at the same time because he has no way to contact claim code holders to arrange such a schedule.

Quote
If he honors them, and he starts getting competing claims, which I don't see happening unless he let his computer get compromised, or someone's account on GLBSE got hacked, then if he was smart (which I am no longer sure about), he would hold onto those until the issue is resolved.
How long should he wait? He has no way to contact claim code holders to work out a schedule. Do you see how ridiculous this is?

Quote
At this point, the only thing he should be doing, is be taking people's claim codes, along with their contact information, and building up his asset-holder list. Then, if duplicate claims are submitted, then those shares are put on hold until the dispute has been resolved... preferably privately, and not dragged through the forum...
And the mechanism for resolving those is ...? What?

Quote
Nobody has any right to expect any further cooperation from GLBSE, as they are no longer involved in managing Goat's issues.
In other words, GLBSE has abandoned their customers and unilaterally imposed a fundamentally broken and insecure claim code scheme on them. Yet they assume no liability whatsoever for the damages that will result from its obvious flaws and expect Goat to do so at his own risk. GLBSE had no right to convert a listed security into a bearer bond with no permission from either the issuer of that security or the holders of that security. In effect, GLBSE issued bearer bonds it now expects Goat to redeem in the absence of any agreement to that issue such bonds, any agreed upon scheme for redeeming them, or even any imaginable redemption scheme!

Congratulations, GLBSE. You are now on my list of companies that will make up new rules any time they feel like regardless of the consequences to their customers. On the bright side, you have lots of company.


Let's not forget GLBSE has also removed my (a customer's) access to the contract provided solely through GLBSE facilities so far. Further it has not given me anything but a code -- and no communication channel to use it. That leaves customers totally lacking of secure and verifyable information, apart from a 3rd party forum inhabited by the asset issuer (no verification), who already declared this channel insecure.

Clearly GLBSE has harmed customers holding any of the delisted shares, for a personal spat with an asset issuer.
And customers are used as leverage in this fight. That's not just highly unprofessional, it is downright offensive.


Maybe it is illegal too, I see a case of causing intentional harm by abandoning paying (fees) customers. I have only 10 BTC in limbo, but I feel pissed enough to maybe talk it over with a lawyerly friend.

While it is true Goat is still responsible to hold to the asset contract, GLBSE by common sense is responsible to provide the trading platform, and facilitate a reasonably communication channel and orderly delisting process, if any should be necessary at all.

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September 26, 2012, 09:39:00 PM
 #37


Goat, as GLBSE has even rendered the contract inaccessible, can you please repost it here?

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September 26, 2012, 09:40:00 PM
 #38

While it is true Goat is still responsible to hold to the asset contract, ...
Sure, but his responsibility is now only to himself. GLBSE's customers agreed to allow GLBSE to decide who holds the asset -- the other party to the contract is whoever GLBSE says it is. GLBSE has stated that they returned those assets to Goat and in exchange gave their customers claim codes. Goat has not accepted any obligation to honor these claim codes. Goat is now the holder of those assets, since GLBSE gave them back to him, and GLBSE's customers have only claim codes issued by GLBSE.

Goat only listed securities and never issued bearer bonds. GLBSE had no authority to issue bearer bonds redeemable by Goat. So it cannot be that the holder of those assets is whoever possesses the claim codes.

I am an employee of Ripple.
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September 26, 2012, 10:28:28 PM
 #39

While it is true Goat is still responsible to hold to the asset contract, ...
Sure, but his responsibility is now only to himself. GLBSE's customers agreed to allow GLBSE to decide who holds the asset -- the other party to the contract is whoever GLBSE says it is. GLBSE has stated that they returned those assets to Goat and in exchange gave their customers claim codes. Goat has not accepted any obligation to honor these claim codes. Goat is now the holder of those assets, since GLBSE gave them back to him, and GLBSE's customers have only claim codes issued by GLBSE.

Goat only listed securities and never issued bearer bonds. GLBSE had no authority to issue bearer bonds redeemable by Goat. So it cannot be that the holder of those assets is whoever possesses the claim codes.

Yes I agree. But that doesn't preclude a reasonable agreement between Goat and the former share holders. He could decide to honor the claim codes for continued payment or make a buy back offer, if we can work out a secure way to compile a list. Of course former share holders would need to agree to drop their original claims via GLBSE.

And the request to see the original contract is reasonable too.
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September 27, 2012, 01:02:13 AM
 #40

This is a mess of Goat's creation. When he dragged their dispute out into the public to drag it through the mud, for the sole purpose of hurting Nefario and GLBSE, he earned the eviction.

This was about the GLBSE scam asset? Or was Goat delisted because of Pirate involvement?

You make it sound like the delisting was part of a personal dispute. What's the official story?
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