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Author Topic: De-troll Bitcoin  (Read 1916 times)
Matthew N. Wright
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May 16, 2012, 07:59:26 AM
 #1

Why should internet trolls be allowed to gang up on people who have a point and spread FUD and misdirection? Why can't we equally use our numbers against them too so that they lose their misdirecting powers? 1 for 1!

Trolls (name your site, reddit, SA, anywhere) get their power from their anonymity and numbers. They succeed in doing what they do because their targets are spread thinly, they remain anonymous, and because they are anonymous they don't need to back up anything they say.

Since we are the ones trying to change the world for the better and they seem to be the uptight assholes with an agenda against innovation, we have to stick together for our causes. Every initiative uses fuel though, and I think money might be a good kind.

This particular campaign is related to an internet community that Bitcoin could be used quite well in given the right understanding of it. Unfortunately, like many places, WIRED magazine's article about how "bitcoin has already failed" and inbred hatred of anything free and open has caused a bias. This means that if anyone mentions "bitcoin", 10 anonymous accounts pop-up calling it a scam and saying that person talking about it is probably trying to sell something etc.

You cannot win an argument if your voice is not as loud as the opponents unfortunately, and as is with society, louder voices win even if they're flat out lying. We need to at least match the voice of detraction. For every 10 fake accounts that cannot defend a point, we need 10 real people willing to argue it. Think of it like a chess game that I want to pay to be played.

There is no "winning" this game, but losing the game because something nocked the pieces off the board or told you to look in another direction while they placed their queen next to your king is cheating. Trolls cheat. They cannot win a real argument, and it takes power-in-numbers to make a troll infested place into a platform where a real debate can take place.

I will update the spots below regarding vacancies in the campaigns. The payment will be decided based off of donations and private investments.

PM me for more information. (Skype users will be given higher priority)

Spots available:

185/200

Current donations/investments to this campaign:

  • 20 BTC - Private investment

Donations to this campaign can be made at 1MCYmbrnVYVuBgduTNswoD9YCkXLJj9S73

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Raoul Duke
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May 16, 2012, 09:37:22 AM
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Am I understanding this right? You want to create a sockpuppet army?

Matthew N. Wright
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May 16, 2012, 09:40:51 AM
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Am I understanding this right? You want to create a sockpuppet army?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)

Uhh, no.

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May 16, 2012, 09:48:06 AM
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Why can't we gang up on them too with actual truth coming in from all directions?

Ahahahaha. "Trolling for truth?" Smiley This won't end well.
Matthew N. Wright
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May 16, 2012, 10:00:10 AM
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Why can't we gang up on them too with actual truth coming in from all directions?

Ahahahaha. "Trolling for truth?" Smiley This won't end well.

What, you've never mower astroturf before?  Wink

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May 16, 2012, 10:09:39 AM
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What, you've never mower astroturf before?  Wink

Sounds like a business plan... Wright & Co. - Digital gamekeepers for all your astrogardening needs.
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May 16, 2012, 10:14:20 AM
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Am I understanding this right? You want to create a sockpuppet army?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)

Uhh, no.

That article exactly describes what you want to do: Change public perception by posting opposite views to certain persons/articles, be them positive or negative. Just because it's the truth for you, it may be seen as lies by others.
Thanks for confirming.
Also, I subscribe the "This won't end well" statement lol

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May 16, 2012, 10:28:55 AM
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That article exactly describes what you want to do: Change public perception by posting opposite views to certain persons/articles, be them positive or negative.
Umm, no. The crux of sockpuppetry is the use of deception to obscure the source of a message. Organizing a group of people to get a message out is not sockpuppetry. Impersonating a group of people to get a message out is.

Quote
Just because it's the truth for you, it may be seen as lies by others.
Thanks for confirming.
Wow. No. A thousand times, "no". What matters is what actually is true.  All claims are not equal, nor does a claim gain any status simply because somoene believes it. Some are *right* and some are *wrong* and that this the difference that matters most.

A person who actually is right should work to spread their ideas, regardless of whether they "may be seen as lies by others". This is because correct information allows people to avoid and minimize harm.

A person who is wrong is not excused by their incorrect statements being "the truth for [them]". Spreading a falsehood will do precisely the same damages whether the spreaders believe the falsehood or not.

What you're doing is equivalent to analyzing whether it is acceptable to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater but ignoring the very important issue of whether the theater actually *is* on fire. Nothing matters more to the analysis and the conclusion.

I am an employee of Ripple Labs, the company behind the Ripple payment network.
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May 16, 2012, 10:37:53 AM
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What you're doing is equivalent to analyzing whether it is acceptable to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater but ignoring the very important issue of whether the theater actually *is* on fire. Nothing matters more to the analysis and the conclusion.

That will also end well, one way or the other.
They won't die from the fire, they will die from stepping on eachother.
Terrible analogy, Joel, sorry.

Matthew N. Wright
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May 16, 2012, 10:39:54 AM
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That will also end well
I appreciate your opinion that it will end well, but I'm curious why it matters to you if you're not going to be a part of it?

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May 16, 2012, 10:45:38 AM
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Anything to finally combat the problem of trolling is welcome for me.On most forums I've been on,this isn't such a big problem (as the few trolls who remain get dealt with quickly by the mods) .Why is this the only forum I find, that this is an issue?


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May 16, 2012, 10:47:46 AM
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That will also end well
I appreciate your opinion that it will end well, but I'm curious why it matters to you if you're not going to be a part of it?

It matters because I bet most of the people who will be a part of it will start "de-trolling", like you call it, opposite views about Bitcoin, and honnestly, Bitcoin already has a bad enough image because of that happening in the small scale that it happens today. You bringing it to a bigger scale will hurt Bitcoin more than it will help.

But you guys are free to do whatever the fuck you wish. Be my guest. But the bottom line is that you are no better than the SA goons.
hmmm, maybe you should recruit SA users, they're your men, for sure. And they're already trained.

De-troll at will...

Matthew N. Wright
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May 16, 2012, 10:48:03 AM
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Anything to finally combat the problem of trolling is welcome for me.On most forums I've been on,this isn't such a big problem (as the few trolls who remain get dealt with quickly by the mods) .Why is this the only forum I find, that this is an issue?



The de-trolling we're talking about isn't for this forum. It's for websites like reddit, etc, where groups of misinformed individuals will spread their FUD at a rate faster than the few supporters can respond to, making it an unfair and bias debate that basically is unapproachable from all sides. By doing this, the detractors think they have "won" by "saving the world" from Bitcoin, when in fact what they're doing is working against the most truest of principles-- the sharing of information. I don't mind Scientologists coming to a forum and talking about their beliefs, because in debating it we get to the point. If 100 people gang up on 1 Scientologist and say "You're a faggot, go to hell stupid bitch. Scientology is gay", then no one will be able to get to the actual argument to learn anything about why it is right/wrong.

Some might think "Yea but Scientology IS gay, and it's a scam!" but a majority of people could say exactly the same thing about absolutely anything you believe in including you personally, and then you'd wish there was a fair debate.

The astroturfing they effectively do causes Bitcoin to look bad even when it hasn't done anything wrong. The only way to handle it is to mow the astroturf. They do it with Bitcoiners, I don't see what we can't do it to them in reverse.

Also, problem with this forum is also one of its greatest experimental benefits: More freedom.

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May 16, 2012, 10:54:20 AM
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Anything to finally combat the problem of trolling is welcome for me.On most forums I've been on,this isn't such a big problem (as the few trolls who remain get dealt with quickly by the mods) .Why is this the only forum I find, that this is an issue?



The de-trolling we're talking about isn't for this forum. It's for websites like reddit, etc, where groups of misinformed individuals will spread their FUD at a rate faster than the few supporters can respond to, making it an unfair argument. The astroturfing they effectively do causes Bitcoin to look bad even when it hasn't done anything wrong. The only way to handle it is to mow the astroturf. They do it with Bitcoiners, I don't see what we can't do it to them in reverse.

Also, problem with this forum is also one of its greatest experimental benefits: More freedom.
Ok.Nice to clarify that this isn't about the forum (as such) as that would have helped me by responding to what the de-trolling was actually about. I hear many people go on about freedom and frankly I want to know where people draw the line online.In UK it is much clearer where the line is drawn for me and internet sites in Europe. Freedom for me is about expression/freedom from offence.Trolling isn't freedom,it just devalues the efforts of the community by people spreading FUD and then others have to chase after the trolls,everytime.Isn't it time a solution was implemented that strikes a good balance between right to expression/having a quality experience without being in fear of being trolled all the time.

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May 16, 2012, 11:15:02 AM
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It's for websites like reddit, etc, where groups of misinformed individuals will spread their FUD at a rate faster than the few supporters can respond to, making it an unfair and bias debate that basically is unapproachable from all sides.

Oh shit.



If I am curious but uninformed, and I meet a literal army of troll-fighting proselytizing Bitcoiners I'm going to turn really sceptical really fast.

Edited to add: The word "de-trolling" makes me cringe. Set the facts straight, by all means, but never try and fight a troll in a stand up fight.
As the saying goes: "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."
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May 16, 2012, 11:23:06 AM
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It's for websites like reddit, etc, where groups of misinformed individuals will spread their FUD at a rate faster than the few supporters can respond to, making it an unfair and bias debate that basically is unapproachable from all sides.

Oh shit.



If I am curious but uninformed, and I meet a literal army of proselytizing Bitcoiners I'm going to turn really sceptical really fast.

Edited to add: The word "de-trolling" makes me cringe. Set the facts straight, by all means, but never try and fight a troll in a stand up fight.
As the saying goes: "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

Thanks for the advice elux.Important things to bear in mind. Perceptions can make or break ideas (and currencies).

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Matthew N. Wright
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May 16, 2012, 03:07:52 PM
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"Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

LOL! I love that

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May 16, 2012, 03:32:09 PM
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What the heck are you thinking?

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May 16, 2012, 03:57:31 PM
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What the heck are you smoking?
FTFY, also I want some.

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May 16, 2012, 07:51:04 PM
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Sound great Matthew N. Wright, another winning idea!

Upvotes to you good sirs, you win the internet. Epic winnery FTW. Troll fail is fail, luz boat full steam ahead to pwning lamerz.

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