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Author Topic: MOORE: Mining Bond Beating the Moore's Law (Collecting Shareholder Data)  (Read 17276 times)
friedcat
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July 11, 2012, 08:13:35 AM
 #101

Are you using MOORE funds to fund the ASIC building company ? If not are you going to create another asset to do so ?

No. MOORE is a bond, not a stock, so I have to take all the responsibility. Investing MOORE funds to ASIC manufacture is too risky.

ASIC building is costly, although not so crazy as I thought before. It has a long waiting time (several months of producing masks), and needs a large-ish fund (150k$ in total with our current estimation). Crowdfunding of such a project has not been done before, and is hard to do. Seeking real-world investors is put on a higher priority.

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friedcat
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July 11, 2012, 08:33:03 AM
 #102

Are you using MOORE funds to fund the ASIC building company ? If not are you going to create another asset to do so ?

No. MOORE is a bond, not a stock, so I have to take all the responsibility. Investing MOORE funds to ASIC manufacture is too risky.

ASIC building is costly, although not so crazy as I thought before. It has a long waiting time (several months of producing masks), and needs a large-ish fund (150k$ in total with our current estimation). Crowdfunding of such a project has not been done before, and is hard to do. Seeking real-world investors is put on a higher priority.

To complement

the best scenario will be: our ASICs arrive early, then our MH/$ and return becomes very attractive. In this case, I will boost MOORE with it, then sell part of our initial products' hashing power as MOORE before we are ready to sell physical devices.

The not-so-good condition is: our ASICs are late and the whole network is already dominated by other ASICs. In this case, I will also upgrade MOORE via Liquid Helium or MOORE will be devaluated.

The worst case will be that we fail to deliver our own ASICs. In this case, MOORE will also be upgraded, but via buying other people's ASICs.

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July 11, 2012, 09:18:31 AM
 #103

$150 k is not much when compared to other projects listed on GLBSE and  I think you would be surprised how much interest there is in a bfl competitor and even more so one that is shareholder owned.

Why not do both a bitcoin fund and a fiat one ? I would love to invest in that.

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July 11, 2012, 09:30:58 AM
 #104

$150 k is not much when compared to other projects listed on GLBSE and  I think you would be surprised how much interest there is in a bfl competitor and even more so one that is shareholder owned.

It is more complicated than that.

1. Other projects larger than $150k are all incremental, and investors could see their steady flows of return almost immediately. While our project is kind of "$150k or we could do nothing at all". The long waiting time is also a concern.

2. It is technically very hard to execute an actual shareholder ownership. For example, how could the shareholders prevent us from secretly produce a bunch of extra chips and mine and don't report to them? In normal mining companies, the shareholders have at least an estimation of how many mining devices are bought, then complain if the return doesn't match the capability of devices. But for our company, how could the shareholders watch and inspect us without a lot of energy?

Why not do both a bitcoin fund and a fiat one ? I would love to invest in that.

It is possible. But I really have no idea how much could the bitcoin fund could raise, and whether our fiat investors will give us the approval. I will think more about it.

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July 11, 2012, 09:37:05 AM
 #105

I guess it comes down to trust after all. You can probably say that with all the glbse assets since none are enforceable by any government entity.

Making just the chips and letting other companies deal with customer support and manufacturing devices is how I wish other ASIC projects did it to distribute the mining power around.

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July 11, 2012, 09:53:28 AM
 #106

I guess it comes down to trust after all. You can probably say that with all the glbse assets since none are enforceable by any government entity.

I believe they are covered by the Civil Law in most of the countries.

Furthermore there are quantitative differences: while it is hard to ensure the contracts of mining bonds and stocks, it is even harder to guarantee ours.

Making just the chips and letting other companies deal with customer support and manufacturing devices is how I wish other ASIC projects did it to distribute the mining power around.

It is indeed a very good future direction. But as a small startup, we have to bootstrap well first and control our cost. So we have to admit that the options of mining ourselves and selling hashing power are not excluded in our first stage.

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July 17, 2012, 09:57:03 PM
 #107

Could you post a picture of the material running plz? just to see my bitcoins generating others !
(and eventually the liquid helium machine that freeze the all world last time )

The cost of mediation increases transaction costs, limiting the
minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions

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July 18, 2012, 04:14:23 AM
 #108

Could you post a picture of the material running plz? just to see my bitcoins generating others !
(and eventually the liquid helium machine that freeze the all world last time )

This was the mining farm of (finway) we original planned to use to pay the coupons while waiting for the expansion to Lancelot (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79835.0). But since the Lancelot delivery was delayed indefinitely, and the ASICs are imminent, he sold the farm with half of the original price to buy BFL ASICs. I started my own ASIC project at roughly the same time, so we also suspended our deal.



I am now supporting about a half of the coupons with normal mining bonds of which the issuers plan to upgrade, and the other half with my own coins. This is also why I reduced the supply. Therefore in a word we are now still at stage-1 in the OP with "other assets" clause, and due to no appropriate hardware choice, we haven't switched to stage-2 yet.

If you consider this as a big problem, I am now placing the bid wall at 0.5BTC to buy back. But if you believe that my ASIC project will finally work out, or I will get the BFL ASICs after they really delivered something and increase the hashrate proportionally, you could hold MOORE for a little longer.

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July 18, 2012, 04:26:25 AM
 #109

6th Payment

Calculation time: July 18, 04:17:09 forum time

Number of difficulty change: 1
Number of block reward change: 0

Time interval:

  Starting from: July 11, 03:27:20
  Ending at: July 17, 14:55:05
  Total time: 559665s
  Difficulty: 1,751,454.54

  Starting from: July 17, 14:55:05
  Ending at: July 18, 04:17:09
  Total time: 48124s
  Difficulty: 1,866,391.31

Hashrate of this week: 1.22605MH/s

coupon/share = (1.22605*10^6)/(2^32)*(559665*50/1751454.54+48124*50/1,866,391.31)=0.0049289

Number of Shares: 8404

Total Payment: 41.4224756

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July 18, 2012, 05:04:34 AM
 #110

Could you post a picture of the material running plz? just to see my bitcoins generating others !
(and eventually the liquid helium machine that freeze the all world last time )

This was the mining farm of (finway) we original planned to use to pay the coupons while waiting for the expansion to Lancelot (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79835.0). But since the Lancelot delivery was delayed indefinitely, and the ASICs are imminent, he sold the farm with half of the original price to buy BFL ASICs. I started my own ASIC project at roughly the same time, so we also suspended our deal.



I am now supporting about a half of the coupons with normal mining bonds of which the issuers plan to upgrade, and the other half with my own coins. This is also why I reduced the supply. Therefore in a word we are now still at stage-1 in the OP with "other assets" clause, and due to no appropriate hardware choice, we haven't switched to stage-2 yet.

If you consider this as a big problem, I am now placing the bid wall at 0.5BTC to buy back. But if you believe that my ASIC project will finally work out, or I will get the BFL ASICs after they really delivered something and increase the hashrate proportionally, you could hold MOORE for a little longer.

That's my farm, mining for about a year, sold for half the buy-in price. 
2013 will be the ASIC year.

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July 18, 2012, 06:29:48 AM
 #111

Could you post a picture of the material running plz? just to see my bitcoins generating others !
(and eventually the liquid helium machine that freeze the all world last time )

This was the mining farm of (finway) we original planned to use to pay the coupons while waiting for the expansion to Lancelot (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79835.0). But since the Lancelot delivery was delayed indefinitely, and the ASICs are imminent, he sold the farm with half of the original price to buy BFL ASICs. I started my own ASIC project at roughly the same time, so we also suspended our deal.



I am now supporting about a half of the coupons with normal mining bonds of which the issuers plan to upgrade, and the other half with my own coins. This is also why I reduced the supply. Therefore in a word we are now still at stage-1 in the OP with "other assets" clause, and due to no appropriate hardware choice, we haven't switched to stage-2 yet.

If you consider this as a big problem, I am now placing the bid wall at 0.5BTC to buy back. But if you believe that my ASIC project will finally work out, or I will get the BFL ASICs after they really delivered something and increase the hashrate proportionally, you could hold MOORE for a little longer.

That's my farm, mining for about a year, sold for half the buy-in price. 
2013 will be the ASIC year.

Thanks. I believe they will be dominating earlier than 2013 though. Smiley

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July 18, 2012, 07:53:25 AM
 #112

Update

As everyone knows and mentioned several times before, the releasing date of Lancelot FPGAs is still unknown. And it is believed by me that at least one brand of dedicated mining ASICs will be in the market within this year. So I probably won't buy any kind of current generation's mining devices.

Therefore we have two choices now. One is to empower MOORE with my own ASIC project when it succeeds (estimated deploying time at October-November this year), the other is to buy BFL ASICs. In both cases I will continue to pay coupons and increase the hashrate steadily by 0.89% per week before suddenly pulling the hashrate up with the help of new mining rigs with a new execution of the new Liquid Helium plan.

The estimation of the first choice is about 200-300MH/(second*share).
The estimation of the second choice is about 50-100MH/(second*share).

Both are based on the current price level of Bitcoin. The 0.89% growth will still be maintained after the upgrade.

Considering the second choice, which is (in my opinion) worse, I will buy SC Singles or SC Mini Rigs after there's solid proof that they are already there. But I hope that our own ASICs will be manufactured and deployed smoothly so that both the upgrading date and the target hashrates will be much better.

Of course, some of the investors do oppose to both of the choices, or do not like the status quo. I'm buying back at 0.5BTC/s, which is the same as the historical highest market price. Don't panic sell at the price below 0.5 when the bid wall is taken down, if you don't need the money immediately. Because I will always buy back at 0.5, even if I discover that everyone is against the plan and wants to be out.

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July 18, 2012, 02:48:46 PM
 #113

I will always buy back at 0.5
Now that just makes me as an investor feel all warm inside Cheesy

I recommend asking me for a signature from my GPG key before doing a trade. I will NEVER deny such a request.
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July 18, 2012, 02:54:15 PM
 #114

I will always buy back at 0.5
Now that just makes me as an investor feel all warm inside Cheesy
Especially after I bought some at <0.45 Tongue

Thanks, friedcat! You always find a way to positively surprise me again.. Smiley

Check out gocoin - my original project of a bitcoin client written in Go, with some unique features.
PGP fingerprint: AB9E A551 E262 A87A 13BB  9059 1BE7 B545 CDF3 FD0E
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July 18, 2012, 03:11:47 PM
 #115

Best mining bond on the market.

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
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July 19, 2012, 12:50:17 AM
 #116

Best mining bond on the market.

+1

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July 20, 2012, 06:06:37 PM
 #117

I will always buy back at 0.5
Now that just makes me as an investor feel all warm inside Cheesy
Especially after I bought some at <0.45 Tongue

Thanks, friedcat! You always find a way to positively surprise me again.. Smiley
+1
i took a few at 0.39 Smiley

thx for the picture btw.
Quote
Best mining bond on the market.
+1

The cost of mediation increases transaction costs, limiting the
minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions

Satoshi Nakamoto : https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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July 21, 2012, 06:01:21 PM
 #118

I will always buy back at 0.5
Now that just makes me as an investor feel all warm inside Cheesy
I like that you back your own asset friedcat.
friedcat
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July 25, 2012, 03:24:24 AM
 #119

7th Payment

Calculation time: July 25, 03:14:26 forum time

Number of difficulty change: 0
Number of block reward change: 0

Time interval:

  Starting from: July 18, 04:17:09
  Ending at: July 25, 03:14:26
  Total time: 601037s
  Difficulty: 1,866,391.31

Hashrate of this week: 1.23696MH/s

coupon/share = (1.23696*10^6)/(2^32)*(601037*50/1,866,391.31)=0.0046373

Number of Shares: 5696

Total Payment: 26.4140608

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July 25, 2012, 05:47:43 PM
 #120

If you don't mind my asking, why did it come in 3 parts over the span of more than an hour? Not angry or anything, just curious.

I recommend asking me for a signature from my GPG key before doing a trade. I will NEVER deny such a request.
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