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Author Topic: Warning: Bitcoin4Cash trades cancelled! Won't do business with Madhatter again.  (Read 16533 times)
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May 17, 2011, 01:48:21 AM
 #41

judging from what people are saying, though, his strategy wasn't functionally market-neutral, because he would not allow himself to lose money if the price rose. it's like he gave himself a bailout.

refunding money isn't sufficient in transactions that hedge risk, like (basically) all financial transactions. contract lawyers and economists have the notion of 'expectation value', upon which the efficiency of a contract rests. you don't have efficient contracts if they can be unrolled so that they never took place. instead, you just have hope, and hope is less efficient than contract.
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May 17, 2011, 02:01:16 AM
 #42

I'm in California and I did a locked in rate transaction with bitcoin4cash at $1.44. It took about 2 weeks for bitcoin4cash to receive my cash and I received all of my coins at $6+.

Are you saying he gave you the higher rate even though you locked way low at $1.44? If so, that would be heroic of him.

He honored the contract to give me the fixed amount of bitcoins I purchased at the locked in rate, so yes.
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May 17, 2011, 02:21:58 AM
 #43

I agree--a lot of this commentary is premature until Madhatter has a chance to respond.  My intent in posting was not to hand out judge, jury, and executioner roles to the forums; but rather to underscore that this is a serious issue that needs to be addressed properly in order for faith in Bitcoin4cash to be restored. 
He did say he doesn't visit this forum very often, hopeful someone can drop him a line so he can provide some explanation.
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May 17, 2011, 02:25:19 AM
 #44

He did say he doesn't visit this forum very often, hopeful someone can drop him a line so he can provide some explanation.

I have sent him an email letting him know about this thread and inviting him to respond here.
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May 17, 2011, 02:44:05 AM
 #45

I'm in California and I did a locked in rate transaction with bitcoin4cash at $1.44. It took about 2 weeks for bitcoin4cash to receive my cash and I received all of my coins at $6+.

Are you saying he gave you the higher rate even though you locked way low at $1.44? If so, that would be heroic of him.

No, he's saying he got the low rate that he agreed to. Nothing heroic about something keeping promises.

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May 17, 2011, 02:46:31 AM
 #46


I think some people are just pissed that they wont be getting $2000 worth of BTC for $300.

Absolutely, and rightly so since that is exactly what he agreed to deliver. He could just as well have been handing them worthless or 1 penny bitcoins by the time the money came in. No one made him promise to honor the rate at the time of sale, but he did.

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May 17, 2011, 04:43:41 AM
 #47

I'm in California and I did a locked in rate transaction with bitcoin4cash at $1.44. It took about 2 weeks for bitcoin4cash to receive my cash and I received all of my coins at $6+.

Are you saying he gave you the higher rate even though you locked way low at $1.44? If so, that would be heroic of him.

He honored the contract to give me the fixed amount of bitcoins I purchased at the locked in rate, so yes.

well, that just proves my point; he lost 6/1.44 or 417% on that one tx.  multiply those kinda losses x potentially dozens if not hundreds of lock ins and he's out of business.
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May 17, 2011, 04:44:19 AM
 #48

I agree--a lot of this commentary is premature until Madhatter has a chance to respond.  My intent in posting was not to hand out judge, jury, and executioner roles to the forums; but rather to underscore that this is a serious issue that needs to be addressed properly in order for faith in Bitcoin4cash to be restored. 
He did say he doesn't visit this forum very often, hopeful someone can drop him a line so he can provide some explanation.

he knows this thread exists believe me.
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May 17, 2011, 04:46:36 AM
 #49

Just adding my bit of weight to the discussion: I am in the market, and am waiting to see how this all comes out before I decide to whom I will send my money.

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May 17, 2011, 05:51:35 AM
 #50

I'm in California and I did a locked in rate transaction with bitcoin4cash at $1.44. It took about 2 weeks for bitcoin4cash to receive my cash and I received all of my coins at $6+.

Are you saying he gave you the higher rate even though you locked way low at $1.44? If so, that would be heroic of him.

He honored the contract to give me the fixed amount of bitcoins I purchased at the locked in rate, so yes.

well, that just proves my point; he lost 6/1.44 or 417% on that one tx.  multiply those kinda losses x potentially dozens if not hundreds of lock ins and he's out of business.
Only if he did not purchase a similar amount of coins at the time of the lock-in (or even previously when the rate was lower, or generate them, etc.); or if he was already relying on being able to sell those coins in the event of a rise (in which case why call them "locked in" or "reserved"?).  This type of risk management is critical to running an exchange business at all.

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May 17, 2011, 08:28:55 AM
 #51


Oh boy.. where do I begin...

Basically this person tried to scam me so I refused his business. I have the right to refuse business don't I? I mean, everyone does. Try starting a fist fight at your local bar and see how willing they are to serve you afterward.

He booked a locked in trade and mailed the cash "when he felt like it". Better described as "when he was sure the rate would go up". He mailed a letter from the same country and his post mark and order date were almost 1.5 months apart. I'm sorry, but I can't be expected to hold rates forever. I simply can't do that.

I reversed his deposit and mailed his cash back to him. Not once did he email me about it. He decided to wait until I revised my site (a week later) to post here. Tsk tsk.

Avoid doing business with this guy. I know I will.

So I booked a transaction three and a half weeks ago for 288 BTC at $350.  I send a 10% deposit to lock in the rate at around $1.2 Canadian.  I mail the money the next day and then wait and wait and wait for over three weeks.  Then yesterday I find out that my deposit has been refunded and the Mr. Madhatter is "unable" (more likely unwilling) to honor the locked-in order because he decided that the prices were "too volatile" currently for him to honor his own word.

...

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May 17, 2011, 08:52:34 AM
 #52

This is another "fun" case... allow me to explain:

This person claimed he mailed me letters for locked in trades from months ago. But alas, no such letters ever arrived. I'm not going to accuse him of lying, but I will say that he has a history of not mailing in a timely fashion.

He has, in the past, booked trades and never mailed anything for several months only to email me promising to send the cash promptly. Eventually he makes good on his word, but it is always extremely late.

The last time he pulled this shit the rate hadn't moved much so I just honored an *very* old rate. This time I didn't honor it (it was 2 months overdue!!!), and he threw a fit.

He contacted me only after the price skyrocketed to offer to replace the missing (?) cash as long as I honored the rate from 2 months ago.

The booking was already 2 months old so I told him "no". The trades were expired. (My system automatically expires locked in trades after 60 days. You can mail a letter from anywhere on the planet to my location in 2 months. It's very lax. Yes, I will add this to my FAQ - before you all ask.)

Anyway.. despite my firm answer he didn't listen and mailed me letters for these expired trades and expected me to honor the old rate. I returned the mail to him promptly, as I told him I would.

Oh, and yes the changes to Bitcoin4Cash's website are a coincidence. No, I'm not broke. No, I'm not shutting down. No, I'm not scamming.

These 2 people are yelling because they tried to scam me and I caught them. I promptly returned their cash and deposits - would a scammer do that??

I think the Madhatter may either have allowed recent exchange rates to get the better of his greed, or mismanaged the risk in his business.  He has similarly dishonoured two locked in trades of mine, with mailed payments unaccounted for (net loss to me in excess of 2000 USD all told).  I inquired early on when the payments seemed to be taking longer than usual, and he repeatedly assured me that everything would be fine and I needn't worry, without ever mentioning that he intended to cancel the payments.  When he cancelled one of them without warning I wrote immediately for clarification and offered to expresspost additional money if the payment delay (which I presumed due to postal problems) was an issue for him.  He completely refused this and numerous other workable options, even cancelling the second trade after I had already sent an expresspost to re-cover the amount.  He has also refused to update his website with regards to this supposed "cancellation policy" and numerous misleading statements such as the one claiming no mail has been lost up until January.

Although I initially trusted him implicitly and made every effort to find a win-win solution to the problem, I am feeling forced to consider that he has gotten in over his head somehow and his customers are paying the price; or even that he is intentionally defrauding people.  I am at present somewhat inclined to publish the record of our exchanged emails here so that the community might see how patiently I sought any other possibility before reaching this difficult conclusion.  At this time I would advise people not to send money to the Bitcoin4Cash service, at the very least until the situation can be thoroughly clarified.  Perhaps he will post here to speak for himself.
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May 17, 2011, 09:27:37 AM
 #53

This is another "fun" case... allow me to explain:

This person claimed he mailed me letters for locked in trades from months ago. But alas, no such letters ever arrived. I'm not going to accuse him of lying, but I will say that he has a history of not mailing in a timely fashion.

He has, in the past, booked trades and never mailed anything for several months only to email me promising to send the cash promptly. Eventually he makes good on his word, but it is always extremely late.

The last time he pulled this shit the rate hadn't moved much so I just honored an *very* old rate. This time I didn't honor it (it was 2 months overdue!!!), and he threw a fit.

He contacted me only after the price skyrocketed to offer to replace the missing (?) cash as long as I honored the rate from 2 months ago.

The booking was already 2 months old so I told him "no". The trades were expired. (My system automatically expires locked in trades after 60 days. You can mail a letter from anywhere on the planet to my location in 2 months. It's very lax. Yes, I will add this to my FAQ - before you all ask.)

Anyway.. despite my firm answer he didn't listen and mailed me letters for these expired trades and expected me to honor the old rate. I returned the mail to him promptly, as I told him I would.

Oh, and yes the changes to Bitcoin4Cash's website are a coincidence. No, I'm not broke. No, I'm not shutting down. No, I'm not scamming.

These 2 people are yelling because they tried to scam me and I caught them. I promptly returned their cash and deposits - would a scammer do that??

I think the Madhatter may either have allowed recent exchange rates to get the better of his greed, or mismanaged the risk in his business.  He has similarly dishonoured two locked in trades of mine, with mailed payments unaccounted for (net loss to me in excess of 2000 USD all told).  I inquired early on when the payments seemed to be taking longer than usual, and he repeatedly assured me that everything would be fine and I needn't worry, without ever mentioning that he intended to cancel the payments.  When he cancelled one of them without warning I wrote immediately for clarification and offered to expresspost additional money if the payment delay (which I presumed due to postal problems) was an issue for him.  He completely refused this and numerous other workable options, even cancelling the second trade after I had already sent an expresspost to re-cover the amount.  He has also refused to update his website with regards to this supposed "cancellation policy" and numerous misleading statements such as the one claiming no mail has been lost up until January.

Although I initially trusted him implicitly and made every effort to find a win-win solution to the problem, I am feeling forced to consider that he has gotten in over his head somehow and his customers are paying the price; or even that he is intentionally defrauding people.  I am at present somewhat inclined to publish the record of our exchanged emails here so that the community might see how patiently I sought any other possibility before reaching this difficult conclusion.  At this time I would advise people not to send money to the Bitcoin4Cash service, at the very least until the situation can be thoroughly clarified.  Perhaps he will post here to speak for himself.

So you are accusing eMansipater of lying?
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May 17, 2011, 09:34:00 AM
 #54

I'm not going to accuse him of lying, but I will say that he has a history of not mailing in a timely fashion.

So you are accusing eMansipater of lying?

He specifically said that he was not.
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May 17, 2011, 10:45:44 AM
 #55

Nice to hear from you The Madhatter. Thank You for clearing this up. It looks like lots of us were too quick jumping to conclusions here.

Of course such deals have expiration time on them, particularly if it is made clear from the beginning. As far as I understand, if a deposit made (deal booked) but money do not arrive before expiration than the deal is off. I do not see why merchant would even need to return the deposit.

Think about is as a call option. If you buy a GOOG April 500$ call option for let's say 50$. On April expiration, GOOG is at 480$. Option has expired i.e. worthless. Now imagine GOOG grows to 2000$ in May. The option owner  do not get to go to the option seller in May and demand his GOOG shares for 500$ nor can he demand any option premium back.

So you've already reached your conclusion?
To me the matter is still clear as mud...I'd be interested to see what's in their email communications that eMansipater said he is "inclined to publish"
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May 17, 2011, 02:54:22 PM
 #56

When I bought from Madhatter, months ago, he made it clear that the deal was contingent on payment being postmarked by a day or two after we had talked.

Do not waste your time debating whether Bitcoin can work. It does work.

"Early adopters will profit" is not a sufficient condition to classify something as a pyramid or Ponzi scheme. If it was, Apple and Microsoft stock are Ponzi schemes.

There is no such thing as "market manipulation." There is only buying and selling.
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May 17, 2011, 03:48:46 PM
 #57

Thank you, Madhatter, for responding. I'm inclined to trust you on this. At the same time, I have to wonder: what's the deal with eMansipator?

I'd ask to see the email, but I'm not sure what it would prove. Which brings me to an important moral: DIGITALLY SIGN YOUR CORRESPONDENCE, KIDS!

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May 17, 2011, 04:03:31 PM
 #58

This is another "fun" case... allow me to explain:

This person claimed he mailed me letters for locked in trades from months ago. But alas, no such letters ever arrived. I'm not going to accuse him of lying, but I will say that he has a history of not mailing in a timely fashion.

He has, in the past, booked trades and never mailed anything for several months only to email me promising to send the cash promptly. Eventually he makes good on his word, but it is always extremely late.

The last time he pulled this shit the rate hadn't moved much so I just honored an *very* old rate. This time I didn't honor it (it was 2 months overdue!!!), and he threw a fit.

He contacted me only after the price skyrocketed to offer to replace the missing (?) cash as long as I honored the rate from 2 months ago.

The booking was already 2 months old so I told him "no". The trades were expired. (My system automatically expires locked in trades after 60 days. You can mail a letter from anywhere on the planet to my location in 2 months. It's very lax. Yes, I will add this to my FAQ - before you all ask.)

Anyway.. despite my firm answer he didn't listen and mailed me letters for these expired trades and expected me to honor the old rate. I returned the mail to him promptly, as I told him I would.

Oh, and yes the changes to Bitcoin4Cash's website are a coincidence. No, I'm not broke. No, I'm not shutting down. No, I'm not scamming.

These 2 people are yelling because they tried to scam me and I caught them. I promptly returned their cash and deposits - would a scammer do that??

I think the Madhatter may either have allowed recent exchange rates to get the better of his greed, or mismanaged the risk in his business.  He has similarly dishonoured two locked in trades of mine, with mailed payments unaccounted for (net loss to me in excess of 2000 USD all told).  I inquired early on when the payments seemed to be taking longer than usual, and he repeatedly assured me that everything would be fine and I needn't worry, without ever mentioning that he intended to cancel the payments.  When he cancelled one of them without warning I wrote immediately for clarification and offered to expresspost additional money if the payment delay (which I presumed due to postal problems) was an issue for him.  He completely refused this and numerous other workable options, even cancelling the second trade after I had already sent an expresspost to re-cover the amount.  He has also refused to update his website with regards to this supposed "cancellation policy" and numerous misleading statements such as the one claiming no mail has been lost up until January.

Although I initially trusted him implicitly and made every effort to find a win-win solution to the problem, I am feeling forced to consider that he has gotten in over his head somehow and his customers are paying the price; or even that he is intentionally defrauding people.  I am at present somewhat inclined to publish the record of our exchanged emails here so that the community might see how patiently I sought any other possibility before reaching this difficult conclusion.  At this time I would advise people not to send money to the Bitcoin4Cash service, at the very least until the situation can be thoroughly clarified.  Perhaps he will post here to speak for himself.

This is a tough one...eMansipater, a bitcoin.org global moderator, vs the MadHatter.  I don't know who is right on this one...

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May 17, 2011, 04:48:10 PM
 #59

I figured this would be what eventually came up, or something like it. I didn't believe the OP right off the bat, and I wouldn't believe that he was the villain just on the word of one person - however, a reputation is more than the word of one person and Madhatter seems to have quite a good one.

Is there any way that evidence can be presented here as to whether the OP got his money back, and especially if the postage dates match Madhatter's side of the story. (Maybe the OP said he got his money back and I just missed it.)

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May 17, 2011, 05:56:30 PM
 #60

Hmph, well now that we can't trust this guy anymore, what options do Canadians have to buy/sell bitcoins for dollars?

You could use Ubitex (link in sig)

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