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Author Topic: Cairnsmore2 - What would you like?  (Read 11257 times)
yohan
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May 20, 2012, 10:55:31 AM
 #1

Ok I will start this one off by saying that we are looking at a range of FPGA technologies to base the product on not that any of you might think we would start putting GPUs in our products although you never know. Some of our decisions will be based on how we do this week with more fully loading the Cairnsmore1.

We are probably thinking of 19" rack as a basis for this product and we already have some backplane designs that we did previously that might be useful either directly or in an adapted form. This also fits well with power supply availability and so on. This would also allow a modular purchase of a system that would be easy to upgrade and add to as time goes on.

One of our aims will is to be a very competitive FPGA solution in the market for large scale mining.

We have an initial individual card target of 4-5 GH/s+.

We are looking at our cooling technology and we are testing a new idea this week in a different product that might get adopted into Cairnsmore2.

Timeline - we are likely to limited by FPGA lead time which is typically 6-8 weeks so August-September is likely to be the initial availability of this system.

What we would like to hear from you guys is what you would like in interfaces? USB?, Ethernet - 100/1G/10G?, Cable PCIe?

And any particular features you might think we need to include?

Yohan
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May 20, 2012, 11:45:25 AM
 #2

Good to hear you are already thinking bigger, so 19" rack design, so you going for a more standard motherboard sized PCB with merrick1 like amount of  processors on-board?

USB has some perks by being an interface users know. As long as a single usb could handle a larger board, without any downsides it would be ideal.
Otherwise I would consider looking at Ethernet port if it helps eliminates any downsides to using a single usb for a large scale FPGA board. Modded Routers after all are apparently starting to being used as a means to interface with FPGA's.
A bigger board could be a problem for a PCI-E slot most likely, so I can't see that as a good choice, though it is often requested to have one. If it was appropriate in size for a normal PCI-E board it would be popular, however since your planning to go bigger with the #2 I find it hard to believe it would be.

Have you got your own Mining software for these yet, or working closely with those that can work to optimise for the Cairnsmore series?

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May 20, 2012, 12:38:35 PM
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Ok I will start this one off by saying that we are looking at a range of FPGA technologies to base the product on not that any of you might think we would start putting GPUs in our products although you never know. Some of our decisions will be based on how we do this week with more fully loading the Cairnsmore1.

We are probably thinking of 19" rack as a basis for this product and we already have some backplane designs that we did previously that might be useful either directly or in an adapted form. This also fits well with power supply availability and so on. This would also allow a modular purchase of a system that would be easy to upgrade and add to as time goes on.

One of our aims will is to be a very competitive FPGA solution in the market for large scale mining.

We have an initial individual card target of 4-5 GH/s+.

We are looking at our cooling technology and we are testing a new idea this week in a different product that might get adopted into Cairnsmore2.

Timeline - we are likely to limited by FPGA lead time which is typically 6-8 weeks so August-September is likely to be the initial availability of this system.

What we would like to hear from you guys is what you would like in interfaces? USB?, Ethernet - 100/1G/10G?, Cable PCIe?

And any particular features you might think we need to include?

Yohan

Well, imo, all future boards from any manufacturer of any kind needs two functions: a fan controller and enough fan headers so that it will ramp fan speed to keep constant chip temp to prevent both fan failure (running fans at 100% load is generally bad, even industrial fans often fail after 2 years) and chip failure (due to thermal cycling).... and the other function is software programmable VRM so FGPAs can be underclocked+undervolted on demand so people can keep mining as the difficulty rises thus extending the life of the hardware for another 2-3 years.

The only real request I have beyond those two mandatory features is 28nm on some mining industry agreed upon FPGA (it seems everyone is leaning towards the largest artix 7). Continued 45nm usage seems to be dead, it just isn't cost effective enough.

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May 20, 2012, 01:11:30 PM
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Diablo brings up very good points.
Having FPGA make use of lower nm tech would make an already huge gap in electrical costs even further down compared to normal GPU's.
Also it has proven that they overclock/undervolt better so making the most of that as Diablo said would be best for the continued success of moving FPGA forward.
You've already got multiple power connectors there, maybe too many. Is it worth making a few versions, one with a molex, one with a 6 pin, etc. Instead of giving multiple options in one board, would it make it any more cost effective and/or smaller, to only use the one.

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May 20, 2012, 01:25:25 PM
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Lets start by clarifying that it won't be a single big board. Those are actually expensive to make and there is no logic in this design that needs that approach. The architecture is more of a controller card with processing cards linked by a backplane that wires it all together.The backplane should let us have 12 working boards maybe up to 19 in one run depending on design decisions made.

Similarly PCIe is a bit of overkill for this one internally but could be used to link a rack to a PC or several levels of rack. We might do a PCIe card but that is a different project.

28nm at the moment may not be viable especially Artix that is probably 6 months away. 28nm may also be expensive initially. With what we are doing on bitstreams, and partner offerings, might mean FPGA type might be relatively irrelevant. It's more about the system cost than anything. 45nm may still be the best option today but that is one of the things that we are looking at.

Voltage that is used for whatever FPGA we use is being looked at. We might put in a VRM but that is probably more complicated than is necessary and has it's own cost. There are other ways to do this.

Historically fans have been a reliability thing and we might put in monitoring or PWM but these features do have a cost themselves both in materials and electricity. That needs to considered given the fans we are currently using on Cairnsmore1 have 100K+ Hrs lifetime (11-12+ years) and have a 6 year warranty. The floating bearings that have come in the last few years are a lot to do with this reliability and alternative approach might be a planned fan replacement maintainence schedule.

A fan tray may be the way we do cooling for this design and that would have whatever fan headers are needed. We have some other ideas here as well and more on those when we have thought them through as little better to see if they are viable.

Power wise this will take power from the backplane and there won't be a choice there. The processing card isn't a replacement for Cairnsmore1 but for the bigger rack market. Different backplanes are a possibility including a mini setup maybe with a cut down number of slots but that is for later after we get the big solution out in the wild.

Yohan
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May 20, 2012, 04:02:51 PM
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Lets start by clarifying that it won't be a single big board. Those are actually expensive to make and there is no logic in this design that needs that approach. The architecture is more of a controller card with processing cards linked by a backplane that wires it all together.The backplane should let us have 12 working boards maybe up to 19 in one run depending on design decisions made.

Similarly PCIe is a bit of overkill for this one internally but could be used to link a rack to a PC or several levels of rack. We might do a PCIe card but that is a different project.

28nm at the moment may not be viable especially Artix that is probably 6 months away. 28nm may also be expensive initially. With what we are doing on bitstreams, and partner offerings, might mean FPGA type might be relatively irrelevant. It's more about the system cost than anything. 45nm may still be the best option today but that is one of the things that we are looking at.

Voltage that is used for whatever FPGA we use is being looked at. We might put in a VRM but that is probably more complicated than is necessary and has it's own cost. There are other ways to do this.

Historically fans have been a reliability thing and we might put in monitoring or PWM but these features do have a cost themselves both in materials and electricity. That needs to considered given the fans we are currently using on Cairnsmore1 have 100K+ Hrs lifetime (11-12+ years) and have a 6 year warranty. The floating bearings that have come in the last few years are a lot to do with this reliability and alternative approach might be a planned fan replacement maintainence schedule.

A fan tray may be the way we do cooling for this design and that would have whatever fan headers are needed. We have some other ideas here as well and more on those when we have thought them through as little better to see if they are viable.

Power wise this will take power from the backplane and there won't be a choice there. The processing card isn't a replacement for Cairnsmore1 but for the bigger rack market. Different backplanes are a possibility including a mini setup maybe with a cut down number of slots but that is for later after we get the big solution out in the wild.

Yohan


Using PCI-E connectors for the backplane connector (for connector only, obviously not electrically) isn't a bad idea. But how do you plan on putting all those boards in one box and not secure them somehow so they can't be accidentally disconnected inside of the case?

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May 20, 2012, 04:20:54 PM
 #7

We are not likely to use PCIe in this way but it is a possibility for a quick picture have a look at http://www.schroff.co.uk/internet/html_e/index.html. So what we are taling about is a rack with card guides and a backplane at the back of the rack. The cards slide in and connect to the backplane.Another example http://uk.kontron.com/products/systems+and+platforms/microtca+integrated+platforms/om6060.html.

The backplane standard could be an industry standard or just something we do to suit the purpose. The main thing is that the metal work and supporting guides are standard things. With a full height 19" rack we might be looking at fitting up to 4-8 sub racks depending on height we adopt on the sub-rack and what we have in power supplies. So we might be able to do an entire rack with 0.5-1 TH/s if I can add up correctly. Then it is just a case of adding racks. In data centres you might find hundreds of these sorts of racks.
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May 20, 2012, 04:23:34 PM
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We are not likely to use PCIe in this way but it is a possibility for a quick picture have a look at http://www.schroff.co.uk/internet/html_e/index.html. So what we are taling about is a rack with card guides and a backplane at the back of the rack. The cards slide in and connect to the backplane.

The backplane standard could be an industry standard or just something we do to suit the purpose. The main thing is that the metal work and supporting guides are standard things. With a full height 19" rack we might be looking at fitting up to 4-8 sub racks depending on height we adopt on the sub-rack and what we have in power supplies. So we might be able to do an entire rack with 0.5-1 TH/s if I can add up correctly. Then it is just a case of adding racks. In data centres you might find hundreds of these sorts of racks.

I think those URLs are not the URLs you meant.

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May 20, 2012, 04:45:59 PM
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We are not likely to use PCIe in this way but it is a possibility for a quick picture have a look at http://www.schroff.co.uk/internet/html_e/index.html. So what we are taling about is a rack with card guides and a backplane at the back of the rack. The cards slide in and connect to the backplane.Another example http://uk.kontron.com/products/systems+and+platforms/microtca+integrated+platforms/om6060.html.

The backplane standard could be an industry standard or just something we do to suit the purpose. The main thing is that the metal work and supporting guides are standard things. With a full height 19" rack we might be looking at fitting up to 4-8 sub racks depending on height we adopt on the sub-rack and what we have in power supplies. So we might be able to do an entire rack with 0.5-1 TH/s if I can add up correctly. Then it is just a case of adding racks. In data centres you might find hundreds of these sorts of racks.

So rather than a single big board, it's more like it's own dedicated 3-4u rack rig, that had multiple boards inside contained in it's own chassis?
I'm interested.

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May 20, 2012, 04:52:54 PM
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Yes that is very much the concept. That also allows the processing cards to be added to or even replaced with newer better ones some way down the line.
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May 20, 2012, 05:14:00 PM
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Then a Ethernet connection makes much more sense for something that will be a 3-4u Rig.

As this would for comparison sake, be similar to the mini-rig by butterflylabs (sorry - someone had to say it eventually).
I personally would never consider going with butterflylabs, mostly since it's not UK based. I like to deal with local merchants when I'm buying expensive equipment like that. What sort of price bracket could one expect something like this to fall into? Similar, more or less?

A Rig like that, would be a big investment, so for the dual purpose of having a bit more freedom when it comes to tweaking it for max performance and efficient and maybe finding a secondary purpose for it in case bit mining doesn't work for us a year or two from now. What options are available to you as a hardware engineer?
If VRM isn't an ideal choice what else is there? you hinted there maybe other options?

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May 20, 2012, 05:26:45 PM
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Maybe a good idea for a backplane: http://www.chassis-plans.com/single-board-computer/S6806-backplane.htm
There is also a Rack for this backplane
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May 20, 2012, 05:44:12 PM
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Something that would be freaking amazing, is a Ethernet port or a Wifi chip built in. Doing so, will eliminate the need of a computer. The board can hash the given string (idk what kind of info the pool sends to the miner), then it does its job, and sends it back to the pool.

A port for a little LCD would be nice.

Something like this



Where it shows something like this:
Quote
Connected FPGAs: 5
FPGAs Working: 4 <---- Maybe one is off or there is something wrong. Else, it would be 5

Current work speed: 3.2 Gh/s <---- it can be Mh/s if 1 board is connected. Easy logic here.

Accepted Shares: 430
DOA Shares: 10

If you do choose to add a wifi chip you can add

Quote
Connected via: Wifi (Dlink) <---- if you have Ethernet then it will say Ethernet

What you guys think?
This will sell like water lol.
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May 20, 2012, 05:51:45 PM
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sup

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May 20, 2012, 07:00:01 PM
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Ethernet would defiantly be a good investment on the backplane. If using Ethernet it would be great if the backplane handled all of its own operations without a host of some sort(eg. doesn't need to be controlled from a pc.) If that were the case i would asume you guys would would be using an ARM chip and a cut down version of linux and some cheap flash memory.

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May 20, 2012, 07:47:07 PM
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We are looking to make this rack stand alone and yes it is up against Butterfly's larger products. We would like to make this run free of a host PC. This is very much a big system concept. I hope we do a better product that the competitors but time will tell on that point. It's very unlikely we will do a PCIe backplane for this although we are looking at these for our general HPC products. The bought in industrial backplanes are usually very expensive so it's unlikely we would but that in. However we can use one of our standard ones that we have designed or even a derivative of one of them. The cost is quite reasonable doing it this way.

I would forget any secondary value on any sort of mining kit. If you are banking on that your equations will be wrong. FPGA families have replacements on average every 2 years and the old family will have limited value even still as chips never mind in a system that has either to be reused or silicon recovered. GPUs are even worse for this. Try selling a 2-3 year old GPU. It might have cost £500 but in 2/3 years you can buy a brand new board of equivalent performance usually for less than £100. Second hand maybe it goes for £30. I for one would not want to buy a ex-mining GPU given the stress put on them but of course most people don't mention that on Ebay.
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May 20, 2012, 08:11:21 PM
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We are looking to make this rack stand alone and yes it is up against Butterfly's larger products. We would like to make this run free of a host PC. This is very much a big system concept. I hope we do a better product that the competitors but time will tell on that point. It's very unlikely we will do a PCIe backplane for this although we are looking at these for our general HPC products. The bought in industrial backplanes are usually very expensive so it's unlikely we would but that in. However we can use one of our standard ones that we have designed or even a derivative of one of them. The cost is quite reasonable doing it this way.

I would forget any secondary value on any sort of mining kit. If you are banking on that your equations will be wrong. FPGA families have replacements on average every 2 years and the old family will have limited value even still as chips never mind in a system that has either to be reused or silicon recovered. GPUs are even worse for this. Try selling a 2-3 year old GPU. It might have cost £500 but in 2/3 years you can buy a brand new board of equivalent performance usually for less than £100. Second hand maybe it goes for £30. I for one would not want to buy a ex-mining GPU given the stress put on them but of course most people don't mention that on Ebay.

Sounds like a good plan, not having to put a computer together as a host for it, certainly would make the overall costs lowered for us, assuming an existing one wasn't able to be used.

I would not try to resell an old mining gpu or rig, that wouldn't be fair to the poor sod who got it after 2 or 3 years of abuse. Old computers in my house nearly always end up having a secondary purpose once they out-lived there usefulness. At least until they completely fail.

The re-purposing would not it's primary benefit, it's just one of the reasons why having a modifiable system has it's benefit. As a programmer and Designer I would have a use of a GPU farm, if I had the tools to adapt it's purpose, admittedly not a huge one. However I do a fair amount of experimental software in my programming, it's what interested me by bitcoin.
My bigger reason is modding it for extra performance from a new or tweaked bios. I'm just late to the party as such, so still learning.
I don't want to take this off-topic though by what I have plans for. I know FPGA all hold that risk, I just know of those FPGA that have allowed modifications have grown to have tweaks done to it that increased performance by 10-20% which is worth considering as a good selling point.

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May 20, 2012, 08:17:53 PM
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This is awesome, I love the way you guys think.

If you were going to consider a PCIe based modular system, note that PICMG 1.3 is an industry standard already, and seems to me that it would suit. This would allow modules to be swapped out when the future performance increases come along. You could cut costs by using a single cheap PCIe switching/fanout chip and splitting the lanes so that each slot would only get 1x electrical connectivity. This is plenty for this application, and would even work for some video and GPU compute applications such as regular video card based bitcoin mining.

There are cases and power supplies already designed around the standard too, so that is an advantage.

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
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May 20, 2012, 09:22:40 PM
 #19

Something modular with a buy-in price that isn't $10-20k USD. $500 chassis and $1-2k blades make it possible to have high density but gradual expansion for small guys. Big guys can just buy a chassis with all the blades populated.

Ethernet + simple configuration via USB. Controlling software to set IP address and mining information. http server running that displays the health/output of the chassis. Perhaps consider a small embedded linux controlling system so advanced users can SSH in to poke around and run custom scripts.
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May 21, 2012, 01:03:03 AM
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Something modular with a buy-in price that isn't $10-20k USD. $500 chassis and $1-2k blades make it possible to have high density but gradual expansion for small guys. Big guys can just buy a chassis with all the blades populated.

Ethernet + simple configuration via USB. Controlling software to set IP address and mining information. http server running that displays the health/output of the chassis. Perhaps consider a small embedded linux controlling system so advanced users can SSH in to poke around and run custom scripts.

This with a definite on the embedded linux so you could even run your own/different from shipped miner if wanted.
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May 21, 2012, 01:39:53 AM
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We are looking to make this rack stand alone and yes it is up against Butterfly's larger products. We would like to make this run free of a host PC. This is very much a big system concept. I hope we do a better product that the competitors but time will tell on that point. It's very unlikely we will do a PCIe backplane for this although we are looking at these for our general HPC products. The bought in industrial backplanes are usually very expensive so it's unlikely we would but that in. However we can use one of our standard ones that we have designed or even a derivative of one of them. The cost is quite reasonable doing it this way.

I would forget any secondary value on any sort of mining kit. If you are banking on that your equations will be wrong. FPGA families have replacements on average every 2 years and the old family will have limited value even still as chips never mind in a system that has either to be reused or silicon recovered. GPUs are even worse for this. Try selling a 2-3 year old GPU. It might have cost £500 but in 2/3 years you can buy a brand new board of equivalent performance usually for less than £100. Second hand maybe it goes for £30. I for one would not want to buy a ex-mining GPU given the stress put on them but of course most people don't mention that on Ebay.

The only thing you need to focus on is total cost of ownership per MH without lowering the product quality like BFL has. A 4U rig with boards that can be installed after purchase would get a lot of people on board: however, 4U high density implies 2000w redundant 208/240v-only PSUs, and a lot of people in the US and a lot of DCs in the US simply do not have access to that.

So, maybe a 2U rig with half-height boards in a custom case that does 1200w max? As long as the density is as high as possible, you will have customers.

Plus, if you make this a generic rig and sell different sorts of boards for this, you essentially have an FPGA blade server. You could sell mining boards along with non-mining boards that your non-mining customers buy, and non-mining customers could very well buy mining oriented boards to combine them with non-mining boards to handle whatever they need.

Mining FPGAs, as far as I can tell, are largely just FPGA designs with high amp VRMs and no external memory chips and no high speed IO wired in. If you just need computation power without local memory or mass IO, mining boards really would be useful to you.

Centralizing all your FPGA products into a single FPGA-blade design would lower the cost for all customers theoretically.

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May 21, 2012, 03:21:24 AM
 #22

My advice to you, yohan:

  • Definitely use Ethernet. Not USB: the maximum cable length is only 5 meters, and large scale miners have racks spaced out my much more than 5 meters. Not cable PCIe: it is overkill, too expensive, and its extra bandwidth unnecessary.
  • If you put an embedded PC in the unit, use USB to link it to the internal FPGA boards. You don't necessarily have to use USB cables, instead you may want to design a backplane populated with SATA data and power connectors repurposed to carry the USB signal (over the SATA data connector) and power to the FPGA boards (over the SATA power connector). The boards would be plugged into the backplane, much like a SATA drive is plugged into the SATA backplane of an x86 server. Put a USB hub controler IC on the backplane to make it a USB switch (1 upstream link to the embedded PC, multiple downstream links to the FPGA boards). A SATA power connector is only rated 4.5A for the 3.3V line, 4.5A @ 5V, and 4.5A @ 12V, therefore I would suggest to repurpose the useless 3.3V and 5V rails to 12V, giving you a total of 13.5A for 12V, or 162W per connector, which should be sufficient for a board with up to 16 LX150's. BFL seems to be following a similar idea by carrying USB signals over SATA cables (not backplane connectors though) in their mini rig.
  • Use 19" rackable chassis. And make them at least 2U. Rationale: easier to cool, and bigger more efficient fans can be installed in them, compared to the 41 mm fans in 1U chassis (this is why Facebook uses 1.5U chassis in their Prineville datacenter instead of 1U: http://opencompute.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Server-Chassis-Specifications.pdf )
  • Use commodity ATX power supply units. And allow users to purchase your chassis without PSUs. A lot of miners like myself have invested in efficient PSUs for their GPU rigs, and would like to re-use them. The 20/24-pin connector can power the embedded PC, while the 6- or 8-pin PCIe power connectors can power the backplane, which powers the FPGA boards.
  • Keep it simple stupid. Fewer components means less chance of hardware failure, reduced costs, and reduced time-to-market. Particularly: (1) no LCD, and (2) no Wifi. Rationale: (1) I want to remotely configure and monitor the FPGA unit over a web interface, I don't want to deal with an LCD display and buttons that require me to be physically present in front of the unit, and (2) large miners are likely to already have cat5 deployed in their datacenters and Wifi is unreliable in some of these environments.
  • Temperature probes for each FPGA.
  • Fan speed monitoring (however don't necessarily make them PWM controllable)
  • Easily replaceable fans (like some 1U chassis where fans are not screwed in, but can be slided in and out of a plastic frame, with rubber to absorb vibrations).
  • Size each unit so that its fully-loaded configuration is about 960W. This will allow users to put exactly 2 of these units per 120V-20A circuit, or 4 per 240V-20A circuit, or 9 per 208V-30A 3-phase circuit (while not exceeding 80% of the circuit's maximum current rating). Rationale: in datacenter environments, users pay a fixed monthly price per circuit. A circuit not used at its maximum capacity (or a config not fully-loaded to not over-consume) is wasted money. BFL failed to follow this advice of mine when designing their 1250W mini rig.
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May 21, 2012, 03:32:23 AM
 #23

My advice to you, yohan:

Size each unit so that its fully-loaded configuration is about 960W. This will allow users to put exactly 2 of these units per 120V-20A circuit, or 4 per 240V-20A circuit, or 9 per 208V-30A 3-phase circuit (while not exceeded 80% of its maximum current rating). Rationale: in datacenter environments, users pay a fixed monthly price per circuit. A circuit not used at its maximum capacity (or a config not fully loaded to not over-consume) is wasted money. BFL failed to follow this advice of mine when designing their 1250W mini rig.

This so much. Ye typical DC gives you two 120v 20a circuits per rack and you have to pay for more at prices that are insane (but still cheaper than residential and small business electrical prices), and from what I've seen they max out at four 120v circuits at a rack. So, if all we have is 80a of 120v, we have to make the most of it as much as possible.

Given 1 units per 10a, each unit is, say, 4u big, a 42u rack will hold 8 of these units if we put 1u space between each one (which I've been told is normal for high density units so they don't cook each other) (= 5u), 8 * 10 = 80a, so we should be fine in an average DC, plus we have 2U to spare.

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May 21, 2012, 03:39:59 AM
 #24

BTW, re programmable VRMs. You're right, Yohan, they're expensive.

So, what about just having a jumper that we can change to swap out some of the power circuitry (resistors, etc) so that it'll lower (Spartan 6 example voltages) from 1.2 to, say, 1.0 and cut the clock rate just as much (assuming FPGAs are stable at low voltages, I have no experience with this on FPGAs, only on CPUs and GPUs).

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May 21, 2012, 08:28:02 AM
 #25

I agree to the sentiments that a blade and/or modular like design should work out quiet well.
I did see some examples on this forum of someone who did something like that.
Not sure if it went it to big production, but it certainly looked good and impressed many.

Upgrades and replacements could become a more viable thing, allowing a low starting cost to upgrade later.

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May 21, 2012, 11:21:52 AM
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LOL at the guys talking about 120V Roll Eyes

For the US you have BFL and their crappy delays and excuses

For the EU we have yohan and this real company that delivers

Too bad we cannot import / export due to outrageous costs / VAT / duty and other gubbment crap.

I'd like to see someone in the UK import a BFL rig and somebody in the US import one of yohan's rigs.
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May 21, 2012, 03:10:51 PM
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1) Cost mega hash per $
2) Back plane
3) Ethernet or USB box doesn't need to be self sustaining, controlling computer can live somewhere else.

I am not sold on the idea of it needing to fit in a computer rack. Allot of people use shelving units, floors, and benches to hold their computers. An open air cage would be fine in my opinion.
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May 22, 2012, 12:48:28 AM
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I agree with a modular design that can be sold and then upgraded or added to. The $15,000 BFL entry point is just focking stupid and actually it's bullshit because it kills the democratic/decentralized component of mining. You are now completely pushing out small scale miners and any form of ingenuity. This $15,000 bullshit is just a money box and will be worth .50 if bitcoin goes to shit. It's the nuclear weapon of bitcoin, once it exists you just up the ante too much and screw everyone who can't afford one.

If you guys can produce a 4-5 Gh/s base product which could be upgraded to 20-25 with additional modules added to the unit over time that would be ideal.

Please beat out BFL so we can piss on their poor business practices and customer service.  Mining is speculative enough without being forced to put out your money for months in advance and then still get delayed.
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May 22, 2012, 02:23:02 AM
 #29

I agree with a modular design that can be sold and then upgraded or added to. The $15,000 BFL entry point is just focking stupid and actually it's bullshit because it kills the democratic/decentralized component of mining. You are now completely pushing out small scale miners and any form of ingenuity. This $15,000 bullshit is just a money box and will be worth .50 if bitcoin goes to shit. It's the nuclear weapon of bitcoin, once it exists you just up the ante too much and screw everyone who can't afford one.

If you guys can produce a 4-5 Gh/s base product which could be upgraded to 20-25 with additional modules added to the unit over time that would be ideal.

Please beat out BFL so we can piss on their poor business practices and customer service.  Mining is speculative enough without being forced to put out your money for months in advance and then still get delayed.

OTOH, that $15k entry point means nothing if they're getting that high of a mh/$. That said, for a large scale farm, a $5k box or a $15k box, there is little inbetween. Especially since they've already sold like 25 of them and no one even has one yet.

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May 22, 2012, 03:13:44 AM
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LOL at the guys talking about 120V Roll Eyes

For the US you have BFL and their crappy delays and excuses

For the EU we have yohan and this real company that delivers

Too bad we cannot import / export due to outrageous costs / VAT / duty and other gubbment crap.

I'd like to see someone in the UK import a BFL rig and somebody in the US import one of yohan's rigs.

I'm buying from enterpoint and I'm in the US? How much are export costs from UK to US?
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May 22, 2012, 05:47:03 AM
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LOL at the guys talking about 120V Roll Eyes

My remark about sizing for 960W also applies to 240V circuits.

I agree with a modular design that can be sold and then upgraded or added to. The $15,000 BFL entry point is just focking stupid

Actually a $10-15k pricing point is fine... The way I see it, is that as long as there are mining solutions at the following price points (orders of magnitude), anybody should be able to find something for their budget:
- around $100: entry-level/mid-level video cards.
- around $1k: quad Spartan6 boards, BFL single, etc.
- around $10k: BFL mini rig, Cairnsmore2 (hopefully).

yohan: for Cairnsmore2, please arrange the fans like rackable servers: placed at the front or back of the chassis (ie. not attached to heatsinks or FPGA boards).
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May 22, 2012, 07:13:30 AM
 #32

Export costs vary widely by country where it is being imported and the type of equipment it is. The key to all of this is the harmonised code which is a system that identifies the type of equipment and then the customs processor knows what duty level is to be applied. Duty is different from local sales taxes. Most countries have a mechanism for applying local/federal sales taxes on imports so you don't avoid those.

For sales between supplier and customers in different EU countries duties have been totally eliminated but sales tax (Value Added Tax - VAT) still exists and we have a system that is not totally different from intra-state system in the US. If we are selling to a domestic customer in the EU we will always apply VAT to the price. If the EU customer is a business, with a valid VAT number, we can ship without charging VAT ourselves but it is still due to the authorities local to the customer. This is backed up with a reporting system so that fraud doesn't occur and we report every VAT free shipment to a EU country.

As far as I understand it, and this is complex, US duties vary with sourcing country of the item being imported and the harmonised code used. They also used to have an associate tax called MFP which is very small, 0.02% from memory, as well. Generally as a country UK items don't get hit hard by duty as we are a friendly country. VAT does not get applied to non-EU countries. The hardminised code that we use for most of our products is a fairly low duty, or none, but Cairnsmore1 may be different especially if we ship it with bitstreams loaded i.e. a known function that changes the harmonised code. We are looking at what harmonised code we can use for Cairnsmore1. Once that is established we will publish that. Most of the couriers have duty calculators so cost can be checked.

South America countries have very high duty levels from what we have heard.

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May 22, 2012, 02:11:00 PM
 #33

Here are my thoughts on this (just noticed this thread, had a busy weekend lol):

  • Low initial chassis cost. Chassis includes PSU and backplane, and controller. Then you can add boards at a reasonable price per board. Allows a smooth upgrade curve. The challenge is finding the sweet spot in MHash/$ but while maintaining a low "per board" cost. You want optimal MHash/$, but you don't want your boards to be much over $2K each.
  • Controller should use Ethernet. Make it standalone.
  • Consider power density. We want as high a density as possible, but also don't want to exceed common power density limits. I would keep the unit's power consumption under 200W/U. So if you do a 3U chassis keep it under 600W. At current FPGA tech/bitstreams (though I'm hoping that with your skilled team you can come up with a better bitstream that milks more performance per chip and per watt). that means about 15GHash/s per 3U Case. With this setup you don't need to space out the gear in the rack, and can fit 14x rigs in a rack. which puts you at about 8.4KW of draw per rack, which works with most datacenters limits (but on the high end without paying a lot more) and 210GHash/s per rack. You can go higher density than this, but at that point you're starting to fight power density at the datacenter, and thermal density issues as well.
  • Monitoring! You need monitoring of as many metrics as possible. Fans, Heat, Power, everything that doesn't blow up the price too much, you should be monitoring, and reporting over either webservice, or SNMP. So that existing infrastructure monitoring tools can manage the health of the cluster
  • Depending on the cost of the chassis, adding an accessory later, allowing slotting of 1 or more cairnsmore1 boards into a "blade" for this new system would provide an upgrade path for those already investing in your Gen1 product Wink
  • Bitstream upgrade abilities over ethernet. Allowing remote upgrade of individual blades (without bringing down the entire cluster)

I'm sure I have more than that, but that's the main stuff I can think of right now.

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February 22, 2013, 12:08:34 PM
 #34

As you all keep asking this is what what we are doing as regards Bitcoin mining. It is intended only as a test board for Goliath technology and yes it does look strangely familiar but you never know we might spin it as a product. It doesn't have the full Goliath functionality which is why we might sell it but it does have enough to be a competative Bitcoin solution. Please don't ask on the emails for more info or pricing as we are very busy currently. None will be forecoming until we are ready to talk more about what we are doing. Meanwhile enjoy!

Yohan


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February 22, 2013, 12:58:56 PM
 #35

Looking sweet Yohan, no need to re-invent the wheel  Smiley.

Don't leave it too long though, some of us have their fingers hovering over the order button.

I would much rather send my money your way than BFL's but time is money as they say.
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February 22, 2013, 01:14:16 PM
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Looking sweet Yohan, no need to re-invent the wheel  Smiley.

Don't leave it too long though, some of us have their fingers hovering over the order button.

I would much rather send my money your way than BFL's but time is money as they say.

The nice thing is that they've proven they can go from concept to working product relatively quickly.

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February 22, 2013, 01:15:50 PM
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Gets the thumbs up from me  Grin
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February 22, 2013, 01:22:36 PM
 #38

Looking sweet Yohan, no need to re-invent the wheel  Smiley.

Don't leave it too long though, some of us have their fingers hovering over the order button.

I would much rather send my money your way than BFL's but time is money as they say.

The nice thing is that they've proven they can go from concept to working product relatively quickly.

True,

but now they have to rush it, since difficulty is already rising fast.

And they have to have chips which cost less than 25 USD/GHs (Avalon price of 1500 USD/60 GHs) and/or use a lot less power than Avalons


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February 22, 2013, 01:27:31 PM
 #39

Last but not least,

add a power cycle button, on CM1s you need to remove pcie connector and usb connetor to power cycle them.

Remove power from usb connector, makes life easier finding a usb hub Wink and, maybe, a different usb chip which does not lockup when powering boards on like it happens on a couple of my CM1s.

spiccioli
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February 22, 2013, 01:39:00 PM
 #40

Last but not least,

add a power cycle button, on CM1s you need to remove pcie connector and usb connetor to power cycle them.

Remove power from usb connector, makes life easier finding a usb hub Wink and, maybe, a different usb chip which does not lockup when powering boards on like it happens on a couple of my CM1s.

spiccioli


At the moment this is a test board but if we are going to make it a board for sale we will probably do a tidy up. The performance we get out of the technology is more of interest to us than anything. We can simulate and do all sorts of calculations to gauge the new chip operation and performance but nothing to beat having a chip on the bench working. We knew how good the CM1 cooling solution was so we just reused that for this test board and the main reason for using the CM1 format. It won't be long until we have the performance gauge and we will decide then our development path for CM2 and the Goliath systems.
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February 22, 2013, 02:00:41 PM
 #41

Yohan,

can you tell us what kind of chip will CM2 eventually use? Still a FPGA or something else?

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February 22, 2013, 05:23:09 PM
 #42

Yohan,

can you tell us what kind of chip will CM2 eventually use? Still a FPGA or something else?

spiccioli


Spiccioli has had great suggestions. A reset button would be amazing. Even if Goliath uses FPGAs, if they achieve similar $/GH/s and GH/w efficiencies of what is on the market then they would sell well. Besides the delay on getting it up to effective hashing speeds and the occasional USB drop(down to once a week or so!) I've been thrilled with my CM1s. If I could just stack CM2s on top of my CM1 stack that'd be awesome.

Still really hoping you guys release a product rather than mine in-house under a bond structure. Or do both. There are plenty of us that would rather throw our money at you than debate over which manufacturer is more likely to deliver to our door in the next year.
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February 22, 2013, 07:07:12 PM
 #43

Last but not least,

add a power cycle button, on CM1s you need to remove pcie connector and usb connetor to power cycle them.

Remove power from usb connector, makes life easier finding a usb hub Wink and, maybe, a different usb chip which does not lockup when powering boards on like it happens on a couple of my CM1s.

spiccioli


This x 1000000000. It was so unbelievably annoying having to unplug usb and power to cycle the boards.

As an aside. Will there be any kind of trade in policy for the CM2?

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February 22, 2013, 09:48:11 PM
 #44

Still really hoping you guys release a product rather than mine in-house under a bond structure. Or do both. There are plenty of us that would rather throw our money at you than debate over which manufacturer is more likely to deliver to our door in the next year.

Couldn't have said it better. Am much more interesting in participating on this project (however Yohan decides, either as a customer or something else), than with the other options.
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March 27, 2013, 08:23:44 PM
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We are still playing with the Cairnsmore2 design that is our current testbed design and that is looking good. Out of that work we think a base module of about 1TH/s is practical size for us to build overall units out of and that is what we are working on next. Please don't bombard us with emails or PMs asking about the price as at this point we won't say and it isn't even totally set. I can say it will be set generally by a combination market forces and manufacture costs so you can make a reasonable zone guess from existing competitiion pricing what that might be. However if that market price doesn't meet our expectations we probably won't launch the product and just feed the design into our internal Goliath systems. Assuming we do go for public launch (we are still examining IP issues as well) pricing will be available at formal product launch.

Anyway point of this post is to get a straw poll of how many people might be interested in products at this sort level of hardware investment?
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March 27, 2013, 08:26:26 PM
 #46

We are still playing with the Cairnsmore2 design that is our current testbed design and that is looking good. Out of that work we think a base module of about 1TH/s is practical size for us to build overall units out of and that is what we are working on next. Please don't bombard us with emails or PMs asking about the price as at this point we won't say and it isn't even totally set. I can say it will be set generally by a combination market forces and manufacture costs so you can make a reasonable zone guess from existing competitiion pricing what that might be. However if that market price doesn't meet our expectations we probably won't launch the product and just feed the design into our internal Goliath systems. Assuming we do go for public launch (we are still examining IP issues as well) pricing will be available at formal product launch.

Anyway point of this post is to get a straw poll of how many people might be interested in products at this sort level of hardware investment?


what is the difference between goliath and cairnsmore?
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March 27, 2013, 08:27:49 PM
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We are still playing with the Cairnsmore2 design that is our current testbed design and that is looking good. Out of that work we think a base module of about 1TH/s is practical size for us to build overall units out of and that is what we are working on next. Please don't bombard us with emails or PMs asking about the price as at this point we won't say and it isn't even totally set. I can say it will be set generally by a combination market forces and manufacture costs so you can make a reasonable zone guess from existing competitiion pricing what that might be. However if that market price doesn't meet our expectations we probably won't launch the product and just feed the design into our internal Goliath systems. Assuming we do go for public launch (we are still examining IP issues as well) pricing will be available at formal product launch.

Anyway point of this post is to get a straw poll of how many people might be interested in products at this sort level of hardware investment?

I'm interested.

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March 27, 2013, 08:28:57 PM
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We are still playing with the Cairnsmore2 design that is our current testbed design and that is looking good. Out of that work we think a base module of about 1TH/s is practical size for us to build overall units out of and that is what we are working on next. Please don't bombard us with emails or PMs asking about the price as at this point we won't say and it isn't even totally set. I can say it will be set generally by a combination market forces and manufacture costs so you can make a reasonable zone guess from existing competitiion pricing what that might be. However if that market price doesn't meet our expectations we probably won't launch the product and just feed the design into our internal Goliath systems. Assuming we do go for public launch (we are still examining IP issues as well) pricing will be available at formal product launch.

Anyway point of this post is to get a straw poll of how many people might be interested in products at this sort level of hardware investment?


Interested.
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March 27, 2013, 08:29:33 PM
 #49

You have my attention aswell.

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March 27, 2013, 09:04:02 PM
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Interested.
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March 27, 2013, 09:04:32 PM
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One terahash for me. Thank you.
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March 27, 2013, 09:05:25 PM
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what is the difference between goliath and cairnsmore?

[/quote]

Goliath the family name for our really big computing systems and encompasses a range of our technologies and is for a much wide range of applications. Basically it's our twist on a supercomputer.

Cairnsmore family is specifically Bitcoin targeted technology and generally much smaller thing than the overall Goliath concept. The Cairnsmore3 we are talking about here would be considered a "small" processing element or even a co-processor within a Goliath to put it in context. When used outside these systems but it can be a "small" system in it's own right.
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March 27, 2013, 09:07:17 PM
 #53

Id be interested, my Cainsmore 1 still running strong.
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March 27, 2013, 09:08:01 PM
 #54

I am interested.

Tired of substandard power distribution in your ASIC setup???   Chris' Custom Cablez will get you sorted out right!  No job too hard so PM me for a quote
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March 27, 2013, 09:13:38 PM
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Id be interested, my Cainsmore 1 still running strong.

Most of them are. There may be an odd one we don't know about but failure rate is very much less than 1% over the very large build. I think it's fair to say that the cooling solution has done very well. Looks like we are building several hundred more in the nxt few weeks to keep up with current demand as well.
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March 27, 2013, 09:19:56 PM
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Interested, even if there are a lot of unknowns:

- delivery time
- power consumption
- price

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March 27, 2013, 09:23:11 PM
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what is the difference between goliath and cairnsmore?


Goliath the family name for our really big computing systems and encompasses a range of our technologies and is for a much wide range of applications. Basically it's our twist on a supercomputer.

Cairnsmore family is specifically Bitcoin targeted technology and generally much smaller thing than the overall Goliath concept. The Cairnsmore3 we are talking about here would be considered a "small" processing element or even a co-processor within a Goliath to put it in context. When used outside these systems but it can be a "small" system in it's own right.


[/quote]
ok i m in also

but do you have  an idea of when?

and if you have a wholesale price ,i would be interested in more than one Smiley

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March 27, 2013, 09:46:51 PM
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interested
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March 27, 2013, 09:49:58 PM
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ok i m in also

but do you have  an idea of when?

and if you have a wholesale price ,i would be interested in more than one Smiley


[/quote]

We won't talk about the detail until we are ready. It's really market evaluation at the moment and whilst the base technology is in Cairnsmore2 we still have a little jump to what would be Cairnsmore3. That timeline is stretchy as this is one of many projects that we are doing and it isn't our most important project commercially. We also have a very major product launch coming so everyone here will involved in that for the next 2 months and that will hit everything that we do. So rather than promise timescales, as certain of competitors would do and then fail badly to keep them, I won't fix a timescale that could easily get broken. I know that will be a pain to people making decisions but just talking about what we are doing it is the best I can offer currently.
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March 27, 2013, 09:51:29 PM
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 As expressed I'm happy to invest in whatever you have available Yohan so stick me down from some more enterpoint goodness  Wink
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March 27, 2013, 09:58:34 PM
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Interested, I probably wouldn't have the cash for a 1TH/s system but something smaller definitely
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March 27, 2013, 10:03:25 PM
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I am interested as well. Please keep us informed.
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March 27, 2013, 11:04:21 PM
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I'm interested too, cheers.

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March 28, 2013, 12:02:09 AM
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I regret not picking up more Cairnsmore1 nodes  Shocked For CairnsmoreNext I can't afford 1 TH/s at Avalon prices. I might be interested in 1 TH/s at or (ideally) under BFL prices. Depending on when this launches, 1 TH/s might actually be worth so little that I could purchase a few. Look forward to seeing what you guys release.
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March 28, 2013, 12:06:31 AM
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We are still playing with the Cairnsmore2 design that is our current testbed design and that is looking good. Out of that work we think a base module of about 1TH/s is practical size for us to build overall units out of and that is what we are working on next. Please don't bombard us with emails or PMs asking about the price as at this point we won't say and it isn't even totally set. I can say it will be set generally by a combination market forces and manufacture costs so you can make a reasonable zone guess from existing competitiion pricing what that might be. However if that market price doesn't meet our expectations we probably won't launch the product and just feed the design into our internal Goliath systems. Assuming we do go for public launch (we are still examining IP issues as well) pricing will be available at formal product launch.

Anyway point of this post is to get a straw poll of how many people might be interested in products at this sort level of hardware investment?



@Yohan.


So, in reply to my negativity over internal, private system "Goliath," you returned the favor with a similarly rhetorical negative response to me.


So, now you guys decide - "Hey, maybe we will open this up to the public."


You're a douche, Yohan.

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March 28, 2013, 01:12:17 AM
 #66

id be interested in a machine like that

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March 28, 2013, 01:29:02 AM
 #67

I'm interested.

Only reason why I didn't buy into ASIC physical hardware, is because if I was going to owned it, it be an other Enterpoint.
I got 2 of your FPGA's and they still work wonderfully. I'm much rather buy local.

1 Th/s. I'd want that.


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March 28, 2013, 01:33:06 AM
 #68

We are still playing with the Cairnsmore2 design that is our current testbed design and that is looking good. Out of that work we think a base module of about 1TH/s is practical size for us to build overall units out of and that is what we are working on next. Please don't bombard us with emails or PMs asking about the price as at this point we won't say and it isn't even totally set. I can say it will be set generally by a combination market forces and manufacture costs so you can make a reasonable zone guess from existing competitiion pricing what that might be. However if that market price doesn't meet our expectations we probably won't launch the product and just feed the design into our internal Goliath systems. Assuming we do go for public launch (we are still examining IP issues as well) pricing will be available at formal product launch.

Anyway point of this post is to get a straw poll of how many people might be interested in products at this sort level of hardware investment?



@Yohan.


So, in reply to my negativity over internal, private system "Goliath," you returned the favor with a similarly rhetorical negative response to me.


So, now you guys decide - "Hey, maybe we will open this up to the public."


You're a douche, Yohan.

I don't think he said Goliath system was for bitcoin mining. It is a systems for other markets and uses. I felt he was saying that if they don't feel the market is worth getting into they will just roll the designs into other projects.
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March 28, 2013, 07:22:25 AM
 #69

Yes, interested in a system of that scale, look forward to more details when they are available.
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March 28, 2013, 08:01:05 AM
 #70

I'm still interested.

You'll need a range a product sizes though as i doubt everyone will be able to afford 1TH systems.
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March 28, 2013, 09:25:48 AM
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I'm very interested but also a newbie and I didn't have enough money for Avalon batch#3. So if prices are in that range, it's not very good for entry level miners. I would like to see perhaps smaller and cheaper unit for the beginners. But anyways, Bitcoin needs more competition on hardware market.  Wink

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March 28, 2013, 09:41:16 AM
 #72

Interested.

Hai
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March 28, 2013, 09:59:21 AM
 #73

Well as design comes to it maybe have some higher end models with water cooling.

To have USB 2 and 3 options and to also  have sata 2 and 3 support for connection.

Think I might of just got off the phone with you guys if you are in fact  enterpoint Smiley

If you are interested in design work I can start design work and air flow and units as prototypes if interested Smiley

With the pic of the CM2 I have already started coming up with cooling units for them to be made but I would maybe have to contact you with them. Smiley
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March 28, 2013, 10:01:35 AM
 #74

if it is enterpoint company i spoke to then I already sort of know what their going to bring out lol as spoke to them for over an hour going through investing partnership long term stuff and much more.

I need to call them back next week to see what theri doing but put it this way it will blow BFL away if they do market their products
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March 28, 2013, 10:06:43 AM
 #75

if it is enterpoint company i spoke to then I already sort of know what their going to bring out lol as spoke to them for over an hour going through investing partnership long term stuff and much more.

I need to call them back next week to see what theri doing but put it this way it will blow BFL away if they do market their products

hi crazyearner

please share,more details please?
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March 28, 2013, 10:39:02 AM
 #76

if it is enterpoint company i spoke to then I already sort of know what their going to bring out lol as spoke to them for over an hour going through investing partnership long term stuff and much more.

I need to call them back next week to see what theri doing but put it this way it will blow BFL away if they do market their products

hi crazyearner

please share,more details please?


Am going to keep that a surprise Smiley If it is the same company then they have a few things in hand and testing to do. With that said I sure hope they do produce what was said over the phone.

ok but do you know about the timing?

wich is critical here
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March 28, 2013, 11:23:52 AM
 #77

Interested, depending on the pricing and difficulty at the moment.
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March 28, 2013, 11:55:49 AM
 #78

if it is enterpoint company i spoke to then I already sort of know what their going to bring out lol as spoke to them for over an hour going through investing partnership long term stuff and much more.

I need to call them back next week to see what theri doing but put it this way it will blow BFL away if they do market their products

hi crazyearner

please share,more details please?


Am going to keep that a surprise Smiley If it is the same company then they have a few things in hand and testing to do. With that said I sure hope they do produce what was said over the phone.

ok but do you know about the timing?

wich is critical here


Well if things they are working on are in fact sorted then maybe shortly not to distant and not to far and not to close somewhere between all of that. I cant say exactly When because they are testing stuff and I am having to call them back within a weeks time for a progress report on what they are doing or are going to do. I should have more details next week Smiley


Just a note to add Yup it was the same company I did speak to. Nice women and man spoke to  and knew what he was talking about. As OP has said in original posts and other threads created their busy working on this



And they are also in well couch ill explain when I have more details and phoned them back next week.
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March 28, 2013, 12:06:20 PM
 #79

Interrested.
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March 28, 2013, 01:32:44 PM
 #80

We are still playing with the Cairnsmore2 design that is our current testbed design and that is looking good. Out of that work we think a base module of about 1TH/s is practical size for us to build overall units out of and that is what we are working on next. Please don't bombard us with emails or PMs asking about the price as at this point we won't say and it isn't even totally set. I can say it will be set generally by a combination market forces and manufacture costs so you can make a reasonable zone guess from existing competitiion pricing what that might be. However if that market price doesn't meet our expectations we probably won't launch the product and just feed the design into our internal Goliath systems. Assuming we do go for public launch (we are still examining IP issues as well) pricing will be available at formal product launch.

Anyway point of this post is to get a straw poll of how many people might be interested in products at this sort level of hardware investment?


Interested.

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March 28, 2013, 01:36:16 PM
 #81

Id be interested, my Cainsmore 1 still running strong.

Most of them are. There may be an odd one we don't know about but failure rate is very much less than 1% over the very large build. I think it's fair to say that the cooling solution has done very well. Looks like we are building several hundred more in the nxt few weeks to keep up with current demand as well.

Interested in this piece of info regarding CM1's


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March 28, 2013, 02:57:25 PM
 #82

interested
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March 28, 2013, 03:06:50 PM
 #83

If this comes out soon enough and is priced to compete, I'll be highly interested.

Since BFL takes their time there should be plenty room for an alternatives to Avalon. Avalon sold out their last batch already and the pricing might be a little bit too rich for most people even if they had more batches.
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March 28, 2013, 04:48:27 PM
 #84

For me, most important would be support for SL3 bruteforce (based on SHA1 algorythm).
I will buy significant amount of them.
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March 28, 2013, 05:04:40 PM
 #85

Interested! :-)

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March 28, 2013, 05:19:47 PM
 #86

+1 interested.

Instead of speculation, why not start production?  There is proof of a demand (Avalon, BFL pre-orders) and you the CM1 is a proven product with loyal consumers.

Place a batch order and sell it out, rinse & repeat until demand trickles off.


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March 28, 2013, 05:22:22 PM
 #87

+1 interested.

Instead of speculation, why not start production?  There is proof of a demand (Avalon, BFL pre-orders) and you the CM1 is a proven product with loyal consumers.

Place a batch order and sell it out, rinse & repeat until demand trickles off.


+1
and +1 interested.

Hai
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March 28, 2013, 06:14:42 PM
 #88

P.S. For those not in the know; if they wanted to price their units according to market factors they would go for the nearest similar item.

i.e. BFL Minirig 1.5TH/s = $30,000.00
Enterpoint CM2/3 1TH/s = ((2/3)30000) = $20,000+ min
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March 28, 2013, 06:37:17 PM
 #89

P.S. For those not in the know; if they wanted to price their units according to market factors they would go for the nearest similar item.

i.e. BFL Minirig 1.5TH/s = $30,000.00
Enterpoint CM2/3 1TH/s = ((2/3)30000) = $20,000+ min

Why would they price it compared to a vapor-ware product that doesn't exist?

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March 28, 2013, 09:10:26 PM
 #90

interested too
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March 28, 2013, 10:19:17 PM
 #91

Seeing as the new price for 65GH/s is 5.5 grand (Avalon) be sure that the competition is going to do the same. Shit people are willing to pay 20 grand for 65GH/s.

Supply and demand.
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March 28, 2013, 11:15:38 PM
 #92

Seeing as the new price for 65GH/s is 5.5 grand (Avalon) be sure that the competition is going to do the same. Shit people are willing to pay 20 grand for 65GH/s.

Supply and demand.
Has someone actually paid 20k, or are you talking about the ebay scams ?

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March 29, 2013, 02:47:53 AM
 #93

Let them set the price... before we speculate. Maybe 20K is not unreasonable nor would 40K depending on what it costs for them to produce a 1 TH/s machine.

The more they can build the lower it would be. Straw polls won't be able to really gauge that and I think the market place needs some smaller units in the near term too bad no one is going to be doing that.

1 Th/s in 4 to 6 months with bitcoin nearly $200 USD and a difficulty in 20 to 40 million range? That is speculation... 20K as a price is speculation. But I do believe the people at Entrepoint have a solid reputation and have the team to do this properly. Good Luck... very very very interested.

So many factors and there could be other players that could effect price especially if Avalon sells ASIC chips.

I'd be keen to resell units here in the Asian market.

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March 29, 2013, 04:32:35 AM
 #94

^^ well said, There is definite interest but the timing and price point is key.. without a remote understanding of cost and time frame ,
gauging interest is like speculating prices.

Here is a series of hypothetical question and answers..


Are you interested = 9800 yes's

Are you interested 9 month from now = 10 yes's


Are you interested 1 month from now @ $50,000 = 0 yes's


Are you interested if i shipped now (delivered in a week) @ $5000 = 2400 yes's  -<<< astronomically growing in thought)

------------------


Then you have a whole other series of are you interested question!


Are you interested if AVALON started taking orders again @ = you answer!
  
Are you interested if AVALON started taking orders again @ 1/2 price!  =  you answer!

Are you interested if AVALON & BFL started shipping Immediately !  =  you answer!




One of the reasons i wanted an avalon is because they were actually dialoging with customers and they seem like stand up folks.
The few interactions ive had with yufi via email and this forum leads me to that conclusion!

I would not buy from BFL if they started shipping TODAY!  Thats said i will support any person or company that Joins the party as long as they are a clear contrast to the likes of BFL and can delivery a decent product in a "given" time frame at a competitive price point that considers the availability of other ASICS. AVALON understood this and they are reaping the benefits!  The escalated price point while keeping an A+ rating in the community clearly demonstrates this!


AVALON = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzcWwmwChVE




Keep in mind i missed the AVALON boat because of a deposit error by payment processor> so i have $6 wading in a pool of thoughts!
The thoughts will be there for a while!! I cant say the same for the $6k!!!!!


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March 29, 2013, 08:49:36 PM
 #95

+1 interested

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March 29, 2013, 09:54:49 PM
 #96

1 TH/s and the price is in a good range. im in!

or a smaller system.
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March 30, 2013, 08:41:46 AM
 #97

1 TH/s and the price is in a good range. im in!

or a smaller system.

We will look at our market strategy in a weeks or so when we have some more data on CM2. No promises on what we will offer as yet.
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March 30, 2013, 12:34:47 PM
 #98

Definitely interested...
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March 30, 2013, 12:49:50 PM
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+1 interested  Grin
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March 30, 2013, 02:14:28 PM
 #100

Also I'm interested.
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April 01, 2013, 06:54:14 PM
 #101

As am I.

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April 02, 2013, 05:13:23 AM
 #102

+1

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April 03, 2013, 01:46:26 PM
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ok i m in also

but do you have  an idea of when?

and if you have a wholesale price ,i would be interested in more than one Smiley



We won't talk about the detail until we are ready. It's really market evaluation at the moment and whilst the base technology is in Cairnsmore2 we still have a little jump to what would be Cairnsmore3. That timeline is stretchy as this is one of many projects that we are doing and it isn't our most important project commercially. We also have a very major product launch coming so everyone here will involved in that for the next 2 months and that will hit everything that we do. So rather than promise timescales, as certain of competitors would do and then fail badly to keep them, I won't fix a timescale that could easily get broken. I know that will be a pain to people making decisions but just talking about what we are doing it is the best I can offer currently.
[/quote]

You have thousands of people willing to pay you $20,000 for a product, and it isn't a priority? You guys must be doing very well indeed.
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April 03, 2013, 04:10:04 PM
 #104


ok i m in also

but do you have  an idea of when?

and if you have a wholesale price ,i would be interested in more than one Smiley



We won't talk about the detail until we are ready. It's really market evaluation at the moment and whilst the base technology is in Cairnsmore2 we still have a little jump to what would be Cairnsmore3. That timeline is stretchy as this is one of many projects that we are doing and it isn't our most important project commercially. We also have a very major product launch coming so everyone here will involved in that for the next 2 months and that will hit everything that we do. So rather than promise timescales, as certain of competitors would do and then fail badly to keep them, I won't fix a timescale that could easily get broken. I know that will be a pain to people making decisions but just talking about what we are doing it is the best I can offer currently.

You have thousands of people willing to pay you $20,000 for a product, and it isn't a priority? You guys must be doing very well indeed.
[/quote]

That is the catch-22 of this paradigm shift in Bitcoin.  The first couple hundred people you sell 1 TH/s hardware to for $20k will be very happy campers.  The next 1000, not so much.  The 1000 after that will probably try to renege on the purchase.
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April 03, 2013, 08:21:35 PM
 #105

Interested indeed in this 1 THash unit.
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April 04, 2013, 03:21:50 AM
 #106

You have thousands of people willing to pay you $20,000 for a product, and it isn't a priority? You guys must be doing very well indeed.

That's because Enterpoint is a real hardware company in operation for many years, it also means they'll be able to deliver on what they offer
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April 06, 2013, 03:06:56 PM
 #107

+1

                                 
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jbower
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April 11, 2013, 05:45:10 AM
 #108

I know my two cairnsmore1s are still working hard and I have hit my ROI so it's time for an upgrade, count me as +1.
jml
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April 12, 2013, 01:24:32 AM
 #109

Any news on stock with Cairnsmore1 or 2? Just showing an interest on proven FPGA technology than (vapourware) ASIC Wink

"Everything is a matter of degree"
segfault88
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April 12, 2013, 03:09:58 AM
 #110

Also very interested.
JackH
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April 12, 2013, 02:00:03 PM
 #111

Great company with a great product! The Carinsmore1 is the only FPGA that keeps on pumping out constant rate mhash compared to other FPGA's I bought. Their customer support is stellar and their product rocks. If these guys were to produce ASIC hardware I would be all in!

<helo> funny that this proposal grows the maximum block size to 8GB, and is seen as a compromise
<helo> oh, you don't like a 20x increase? well how about 8192x increase?
<JackH> lmao
Bicknellski
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April 12, 2013, 02:17:48 PM
 #112

No news is good news?

How are things coming along?

Dogie trust abuse, spam, bullying, conspiracy posts & insults to forum members. Ask the mods or admins to move Dogie's spam or off topic stalking posts to the link above.
jml
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April 12, 2013, 03:34:43 PM
 #113

Quote
The Carinsmore1 is the only FPGA that keeps on pumping out constant rate mhash compared to other FPGA's I bought.
Imo the Ztex has not failed me yet. Which other fpga's did you buy.

"Everything is a matter of degree"
ebereon
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April 12, 2013, 09:57:52 PM
 #114

I'm interested too  Wink

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yohan
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April 13, 2013, 09:46:57 AM
 #115

Any news on stock with Cairnsmore1 or 2? Just showing an interest on proven FPGA technology than (vapourware) ASIC Wink

Other that the current preorder on CM1 no formal news as yet on what we will do with CM2/3/4. We are currently in the middle of what is an important major launch of an important non-bitcoin product and everyone here is involved.  Hence everything else, including email response, is on slow turn whilst kick this new product into life.

We will be trying to catch up this weekend on the preorder deposits and other enquiries so we will try and get back to everyone so do bear with us whilst we catch up.
crazyearner
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April 13, 2013, 10:01:46 AM
 #116

Any news on stock with Cairnsmore1 or 2? Just showing an interest on proven FPGA technology than (vapourware) ASIC Wink

Other that the current preorder on CM1 no formal news as yet on what we will do with CM2/3/4. We are currently in the middle of what is an important major launch of an important non-bitcoin product and everyone here is involved.  Hence everything else, including email response, is on slow turn whilst kick this new product into life.

We will be trying to catch up this weekend on the preorder depositits and other equiries so we will try and get back to everyone so do bear with us whilst we catch up.

None bitcoin product can you provide me details of this ?? Are you referring to LTC?
Tigggger
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April 13, 2013, 01:24:56 PM
 #117

I love the idea of something around the 5GH mark, if you retain a similar pricing structure (bulk discounts) and modular ability of the cairnsmore 1 then it allows people of all levels to get involved, and it's great you are in the UK

Needless to say this will all depend on the cost, but very interested.

jml
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April 14, 2013, 03:23:54 AM
 #118

Any news on stock with Cairnsmore1 or 2? Just showing an interest on proven FPGA technology than (vapourware) ASIC Wink

Other that the current preorder on CM1 no formal news as yet on what we will do with CM2/3/4. We are currently in the middle of what is an important major launch of an important non-bitcoin product and everyone here is involved.  Hence everything else, including email response, is on slow turn whilst kick this new product into life.

We will be trying to catch up this weekend on the preorder depositits and other equiries so we will try and get back to everyone so do bear with us whilst we catch up.

None bitcoin product can you provide me details of this ?? Are you referring to LTC?

I think Yohan might be referring to other FPGA applications that exist in the market; bitcoin FPGA mining has become part of the FPGA market for now. FPGA technology can be used for a number of High Performance Computing (HPC) applications. To name a few here, such areas are bioinformatics, brute force cryptographic analysis and AI applications such as image processing, amongst many others.

"Everything is a matter of degree"
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April 14, 2013, 06:57:07 AM
 #119

I really like the direction this might be going.

360GH/s via AntMiner S1
ryepdx
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April 14, 2013, 08:13:18 AM
 #120

Yeah, I'd be interested in a 1 Th/s miner. Would also be interested in smaller miners from you guys at lower price points as well.
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April 15, 2013, 09:24:02 AM
 #121

+1

also litecoin..
segfault88
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April 15, 2013, 10:13:37 AM
 #122

Litecoin could be a killer app. Although it might be better to make a separate product - since you'd probably need ram and stuff that you wouldn't care about for Bitcoin.
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April 18, 2013, 05:06:18 PM
 #123

Interested.

CH
newfrozzen
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April 18, 2013, 05:24:06 PM
 #124

+ 1
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May 23, 2013, 05:10:18 PM
 #125

Hi Yohan,

Understand you guys are busy with other projects, but just wanted to check in and see if the Cairnsmore2 project is something you are still considering or not.

Personally, I would prefer to scale a mining operation with the design path you outlined in this thread, and so have been holding off on other options. So it would be great to know if you still plan to pursue this project along the time frame originally outlined, or if your thinking has changed.

Thanks!
yohan
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May 23, 2013, 08:55:29 PM
 #126

Hi Yohan,

Understand you guys are busy with other projects, but just wanted to check in and see if the Cairnsmore2 project is something you are still considering or not.

Personally, I would prefer to scale a mining operation with the design path you outlined in this thread, and so have been holding off on other options. So it would be great to know if you still plan to pursue this project along the time frame originally outlined, or if your thinking has changed.

Thanks!

We are still considering it but the time frame is very moveable. Current loading on other projects is significant and that will contine for at least a couple months and nothing will happen until we are clear of that workload.
jml
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May 23, 2013, 09:38:34 PM
 #127

Hi Yohan,

Understand you guys are busy with other projects, but just wanted to check in and see if the Cairnsmore2 project is something you are still considering or not.

Personally, I would prefer to scale a mining operation with the design path you outlined in this thread, and so have been holding off on other options. So it would be great to know if you still plan to pursue this project along the time frame originally outlined, or if your thinking has changed.

Thanks!

We are still considering it but the time frame is very moveable. Current loading on other projects is significant and that will contine for at least a couple months and nothing will happen until we are clear of that workload.

At this rate, I believe that Enterpoint have so far made a good standpoint and will outpace other bitcoin manufacturers such as BFL; in terms of customer satisfaction and quality! I understand that you guys are a manufacturer and sell at a greater scale, but if bitcoins do pick up at a faster rate, people will bank on price, trust, support and quality which at this moment, Enterpoint has it all!

"Everything is a matter of degree"
whitefeather
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May 24, 2013, 06:24:43 AM
 #128

Wishlist:

USB to update firmware
Ethernet for connectivity to internet 1G
Powered by PSU
Stand alone miner (no host PC necessary)
Config over http to web app on miner
Ability to configure primary and fail over mining pools
Ability to send email if/when miner experiences exceptions (power lost, then restored; network connectivity issues; pool connectivity issues; lower than expected hash rates -- which may hint at hardware failure) as well as periodic email of vital stats (avg temp, aggregate run time, hashrate over time, power consumption - instantaneous and over time, more)
Upgrade by adding more modules
Starting hashrate of 8 GH/s
dodegkr
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May 24, 2013, 07:25:14 AM
 #129

create a miner in a 2.5inch sata or sas format and update the mining software so we can plug in 24 at a time into an off the shelf 2U server and use the sas/sata bus.
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