Pegged Sidechains [PDF Whitepaper]

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laurentmt:
Quote from: Luke-Jr on November 05, 2014, 03:31:00 PM

Can you come up with an example that is plausable? Having a hard time following enough to figure out what the actual question is...

@Luke:
Thanks for your patience. Let's forget the examples which are just extrapolations on our side.
Boussac and I are trying to better figure out the details of the peg mechanism and their consequences at a higher level (economic).
Basically, the question is the one asked by Boussac:
Quote

Let's say I have locked one bitcoin to release one sidecoin. To release the locked bitcoin, does my sidechain-enabled wallet simply collect one sidecoin (plus tx fee) worth of sidechain unspent outputs or are there other constraints on my sidechain transaction transferring the coin back to the bitcoin blockchain ?

On my side, I would add this question:
Quote

Am I right if I say that parent chains don't choose their sidechains but sidechains (devs, community) choose their parents ?

Quote from: Boussac on November 05, 2014, 03:18:24 PM

Still waiting. The way this fungibility issue is ignored in this otherwise awesome white paper is puzzling with so many bright minds as co-signers.
...
Therefore fungibility is an important design parameter for sidechains.

@Boussac:
TBH, I don't think this point has been ignored by the team.
In fact it has been stated that coins received from different chains should be treated as different types of assets (in the WP, in this thread, ...).
I fear that we (the community) might have underestimated the implications of this point for sidechains design.
I don't see that as a flaw, but as you state, it's an important factor to consider while designing a sidechain and it's also why I'm wondering if sidechains choose their parents (how many, which ones, ...) because this question about fungibility is really related to sidechains with several parents.

Luke-Jr:
Quote from: laurentmt on November 05, 2014, 05:02:23 PM

Boussac and I are trying to better figure out the details of the peg mechanism and their consequences at a higher level (economic).
Basically, the question is the one asked by Boussac:
Quote

Let's say I have locked one bitcoin to release one sidecoin. To release the locked bitcoin, does my sidechain-enabled wallet simply collect one sidecoin (plus tx fee) worth of sidechain unspent outputs or are there other constraints on my sidechain transaction transferring the coin back to the bitcoin blockchain ?

Once a bitcoin is locked to a sidechain, it is entirely up to the sidechain rules what the terms are for the release.
The obvious case is 1:1 equivalence, but there's nothing saying a sidechain must do it that way.

Quote from: laurentmt on November 05, 2014, 05:02:23 PM

On my side, I would add this question:
Quote

Am I right if I say that parent chains don't choose their sidechains but sidechains (devs, community) choose their parents ?

Yes, that's correct. The parent chain could try to prevent sidechains below it, but even then as long as there is multisig you can always do a federated peg sidechain.

tvbcof:
Quote from: Luke-Jr on November 05, 2014, 05:47:58 PM

Quote from: laurentmt on November 05, 2014, 05:02:23 PM

On my side, I would add this question:
Quote

Am I right if I say that parent chains don't choose their sidechains but sidechains (devs, community) choose their parents ?

Yes, that's correct. The parent chain could try to prevent sidechains below it, but even then as long as there is multisig you can always do a federated peg sidechain.

It does seem to me on a theoretical basis that if a child chain is not a complete black-box, a parent chain could analyze it and kill the peg in a targeted manner. It seems to me a corner-case threat, though, since a parent chain which would do it would probably be so degenerate that it itself would not have many fans.

Boussac:
Quote from: Luke-Jr on November 05, 2014, 05:47:58 PM

Quote from: laurentmt on November 05, 2014, 05:02:23 PM

Boussac and I are trying to better figure out the details of the peg mechanism and their consequences at a higher level (economic).
Basically, the question is the one asked by Boussac:
Quote

Let's say I have locked one bitcoin to release one sidecoin. To release the locked bitcoin, does my sidechain-enabled wallet simply collect one sidecoin (plus tx fee) worth of sidechain unspent outputs or are there other constraints on my sidechain transaction transferring the coin back to the bitcoin blockchain ?

Once a bitcoin is locked to a sidechain, it is entirely up to the sidechain rules what the terms are for the release.
The obvious case is 1:1 equivalence, but there's nothing saying a sidechain must do it that way.

Thanks but my (very basic) question is about the fungibility of the sidecoins.
I rephrase the question.
Is the release of a locked bitcoin (or any fraction thereof) tied to a specific sidechain transaction OR is there flexibility in the choice of the unspent outputs on the sidechain to release the locked bitcoin?

Pratical use case: suppose I have locked one bitcoin in tx A to release one sidecoin in tx A' on the sidechain.
Later, I lock another bitcoin in tx B to release another sidecoin in tx B'.
Can I redeem the second sidecoin to release the first bitcoin ?

Luke-Jr:
Quote from: Boussac on November 05, 2014, 06:21:50 PM

Quote from: Luke-Jr on November 05, 2014, 05:47:58 PM

Quote from: laurentmt on November 05, 2014, 05:02:23 PM

Boussac and I are trying to better figure out the details of the peg mechanism and their consequences at a higher level (economic).
Basically, the question is the one asked by Boussac:
Quote

Let's say I have locked one bitcoin to release one sidecoin. To release the locked bitcoin, does my sidechain-enabled wallet simply collect one sidecoin (plus tx fee) worth of sidechain unspent outputs or are there other constraints on my sidechain transaction transferring the coin back to the bitcoin blockchain ?

Once a bitcoin is locked to a sidechain, it is entirely up to the sidechain rules what the terms are for the release.
The obvious case is 1:1 equivalence, but there's nothing saying a sidechain must do it that way.

Thanks but my (very basic) question is about the fungibility of the sidecoins.
I rephrase the question.
Is the release of a locked bitcoin (or any fraction thereof) tied to a specific sidechain transaction OR is there flexibility in the choice of the unspent outputs on the sidechain to release the locked bitcoin?

Pratical use case: suppose I have locked one bitcoin in tx A to release one sidecoin in tx A' on the sidechain.
Later, I lock another bitcoin in tx B to release another sidecoin in tx B'.
Can I redeem the second sidecoin to release the first bitcoin ?

If tx A and tx B are transferring from the same parent blockchain, they should be the same asset on the sidechain.
Obviously you can redeem any "sidecoin" of the same asset type using any of the locked coins, since as soon as you do a transaction on the sidechain the original transferred-in coin is consumed.

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