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Author Topic: Take a step back. Do the right calculations. Then stop panicking.  (Read 2594 times)
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oda.krell (OP)
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October 30, 2014, 01:13:22 PM
Last edit: October 30, 2014, 02:08:55 PM by oda.krell
 #1

(But don't get too confident either.) <-- Wanted to add that last line to the title, but the character limit got in the way.


Alright. So we all like talking about daily Bitcoin price in here. Hourly even. Individual big buys or sells even. How the price rises to a new all-time high, and how it crashes afterwards.

No problem with that, this is the speculation subforum after all, and for those of us who trade those spikes, those values are relevant after all.

But it's also easy to forget the larger picture when doing so, and I notice an increasing number - even of "old hands" - are starting to declare this funny little cryptocurrency experiment failed already because of the bear market we are in for about a year now.

That's a bit premature maybe...


The goal

Let's look at the larger picture for a moment. Not the local price tops and bottoms, but at a large view of the market. Note: This is still market analysis (as opposed to looking at the fundamentals of the Bitcoin economy), but instead of focusing on the extreme values (that are exciting, but not all that important for Bitcoin as a whole), let's zoom out a bit...


Step #1: 'Market cap' instead of 'Price per unit / BTC'

Easy to forget, but important to note: Per unit price, i.e. USD per BTC as traded on a public market, matters for traders and for the value of your individual account, but is a poor representation of the 'total market' of Bitcoin. Market cap, i.e. current price times total number of bitcoins in existence, isn't perfect either (for example because of "lost" bitcoins, or those not being in circulation), but it is already a big improvement. The market now, at around 13.4 million BTC is a vastly different size than in 2011, at around 5 million BTC.


Step #2: Volume-weighted price, averaged over a reasonably long time span, instead of daily price spikes

Said it already: price highs and lows matter a lot for traders. Those who sold at previous peaks and bought back at the lows made a fortune. Those who bought at $1000 and sold at $300 lost one. But it doesn't accurately reflect the weight of buying and selling as a whole, the amount of coins bought and sold at those prices.

Yes, price briefly got near $1200 in 2013. Yes, price briefly fell back to $2 from $32 in 2011. But in either of those cases, only a relatively small number of coins (in relation to total volume) were traded at those prices. It makes no sense to think that the Bitcoin market lost half its value in a few days when price fell from $1200 to $600, and neither does it makes sense to think the Bitcoin market size (sustainably) increased by a factor of 32 when it rose from $1 to $32 in 2011 in a short amount of time.

This is, if you want, a reminder for both bulls and bears: don't think the spikes matter all that much. What matters is the larger trend, unless you are actively trading the extremes on a daily or weekly basis.


Putting it together...

So, let's look at the market capitalization of Bitcoin based on a volume-weighted average of the last 200 days. That's a bit more than half a year of "smoothing" the price, and it takes into account the trading volume of each price that enters the average, i.e. on a day with much trading, the price is weighted more for the final value of the average than on a day with less trading.


In the following two graphs, you are looking at the market cap of Bitcoin (the thick blue line), in millions of USD: total coins mined at the point of calculation times volume-weighted moving average of price over the last 200 days.


2011 to 2013 (MtGox data)




2013 to now (Bitstamp data)




What to conclude?

That's up to you, ultimately. You will note that we are currently "trending down", even in a smoothed view like the 200 day (volume weighted) average and the corresponding market cap. That's pretty bad, you have to admit... means Bitcoin is in a deep bear market (or: was in one. It's a delayed representation after all because of the 200 day lookback period).

However, you'll also note this is hardly the first time this happened: The 2011 bear market brought the "smoothed out" market cap down from its peak of ~70 million  USD to ~38 million USD, almost cutting the peak value in half. Compared to that, the current bear market is still rather gentle: from the peak of 8.4 billion USD to currently about 6.4 billion USD. Down about 25% from peak market cap as of now. Pretty bad, but hardly the "death of Bitcoin" some like to talk about.

(Note also: billion now, million back then.)

The above is, in a nutshell, why I can't really take the doomsday prophets all that serious that claim Bitcoin is dead and the crypto experiment is a failure. Maybe if the larger picture I presented here changes drastically, say, if the market cap falls back to below a billion USD, I'll start wondering if it is really the end for Bitcoin.

Until that happens (if it ever will), I think the same way of Bitcoin the way I thought of it when I learned about it in early 2013: It's a brilliant idea, a truly interesting social movement and experiment, and it has a real shot at making it. As long as you don't delude yourself in thinking its success is a "sure thing", it's worth keeping an eye on, and maybe even holding a few of those funny little coins. Just not so many (in relation to your total net worth) that any price drop makes you want to throw up - but that's warning that applies to investors in all markets.





A word on self-moderation

I used to dislike self-moderated topics, but I also dislike the rampant trolling that has become commonplace in here. This is the first self-moderated topic I ever opened, and I do so reluctantly. As a sort of  compromise, between keeping signal-to-noise in an acceptable range, and not stifling free expression of criticism, I will:

(a) Only remove posts that can uncontroversially be called "trolling". Example: JorgeStolfi's posts are not "uncontroversially troll posts" -  most seem to dislike them, but some (including me) see them as at least not completely devoid of any information. So posts like this won't be removed. Content-free posts troll posts on the other hand, with the only intent to stir up emotions, will be deleted. Example: fallllling's or his alts' panicky one liners, or notlambchop's pony memes.

(b) To allow for some accountability for my moderation, I will move all deleted posts into an unmoderated topic in the off-topic subforum. That way, if you really want to read what btctalk's finest have to say (and decide if I perhaps deleted something without justification), you're able to do so over there: 'Garbage can' thread for my self-moderated speculation subforum threads

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October 30, 2014, 01:33:25 PM
 #2



Not sure if this is a trollpost Cheesy
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October 30, 2014, 01:42:28 PM
 #3

Yeah that's the potential market cap based upon fixed supply of 21mil Bitcoins vs. current market cap based upon the supply of total mined Bitcoins argument. Both camps have some points but neither is a good measure of economic value imo.

I'd like to propose the total USD transaction value as an alternative, and while this is not inflation corrected we aren't yet at a timespan where that matters much.
https://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume-usd?timespan=2year&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=7&show_header=true&scale=1&address=


All things considered $300 per Bitcoin is still pretty good.
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October 30, 2014, 01:42:47 PM
 #4



Not sure if this is a trollpost Cheesy

(Mostly) Content free? kinda.
Trolling? Not really.
=> not in danger of being removed Smiley

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October 30, 2014, 01:49:45 PM
 #5

Yeah that's the potential market cap based upon fixed supply of 21mil Bitcoins vs. current market cap based upon the supply of total mined Bitcoins argument. Both camps have some points but neither is a good measure of economic value imo.

I'd like to propose the total USD transaction value as an alternative, and while this is not inflation corrected we aren't yet at a timespan where that matters much.
https://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume-usd?timespan=2year&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=7&show_header=true&scale=1&address=


All things considered $300 per Bitcoin is still pretty good.

Good point, but: USD tx volume is more of an economic, i.e. fundamental metric. I specifically set out to look at the market valuation.

Market cap isn't really such a bad proxy for that... I'd argue that the biggest counter argument against using total_coins*price is that 'all mined' is not identical to 'all in use or being traded'. On the other hand, mining is a huge price factor, I'm sure everyone agrees. And the market cap definition based on total coins /does/ account for that. So perhaps the absolute mcap numbers are off, but the relative change should be reasonably well motivated...

Reason: there were 8 million new coins created out of thin air in the last 3+ years, and the market had to absorb them somehow (even if they are hoarded, at the time of their creation, their value was based on market value per unit, so someone who puts $1000 worth of coins into cold storage is effectively keeping that value in Bitcoin). Mcap does account for that, even if some initial number of coins is out of circulation/trading.

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October 30, 2014, 01:51:03 PM
 #6

I 'm bullish on bitcoin but when i feel like i have doubts or second thoughts i look at one chart and one only. The bitcoin vc investment chart.  Cool
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October 30, 2014, 02:04:55 PM
 #7

IMO if support at 300$ will be broken, you better panic and sell if you haven't already, buy back about 200$.
It's difficult to predict how many more early adopter whales will panic sell.

Sometimes, if it looks too bullish, it's actually bearish
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October 30, 2014, 02:15:53 PM
 #8

IMO if support at 300$ will be broken, you better panic and sell if you haven't already, buy back about 200$.
It's difficult to predict how many more early adopter whales will panic sell.

No, not really.

Selling might or might not be a good idea (based on your personal investment or trading strategy, together with your predictions of the market).

Panicking never is.

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October 30, 2014, 02:38:10 PM
 #9

There was a bloke on here a while back who panic sold all his BTC at 400 as the money was meant for his honeymoon, and he had lost a lot.
People commiserated with him for having to sell at the bottom of the market (at the time).
Seems like quite a good price nowadays.

It's all relative. Some one who panic sold at $1,000 in December 2013 would now be an investment hero, being able to buy back three times as many coins as they sold, as the value of the dollar has gone through the roof (in BTC terms).

But then someone who panic sold a few months before at $100 would look like a right muppet.

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October 30, 2014, 03:18:22 PM
 #10

There was a bloke on here a while back who panic sold all his BTC at 400 as the money was meant for his honeymoon, and he had lost a lot.
People commiserated with him for having to sell at the bottom of the market (at the time).
Seems like quite a good price nowadays.

It's all relative. Some one who panic sold at $1,000 in December 2013 would now be an investment hero, being able to buy back three times as many coins as they sold, as the value of the dollar has gone through the roof (in BTC terms).

But then someone who panic sold a few months before at $100 would look like a right muppet.


You have to think about the now tho. He could enjoy a great time now, or hope that Bitcoin survives this horrible crash and maybe have a good time.. when is 60 years old, that is if you make it that far because you dont die from an accident, illness, or world goes to hell in a ww3 scenareo before.
Long term gains can be good but the wait is so damn depressing. If I had 400 BTC I would have sold at least 100 by now, too bad I only have one so i'll die poor.
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October 30, 2014, 03:46:39 PM
 #11

Thank you for reminding on the bigger picture!

Personally, I did never understand all the doomsday talk going on in the last weeks. I think people have extremely inflated expectations and lack patience in regard to the value appreciation of Bitcoin.
Bitcoins' rise so far has been extremely fast compared to movements in most traditional markets. Yet people expect it to continue without any interruption.

I think the current period of depressed prices and sideways/down movement could even continue for another year. That would not be extraordinary in any respect and would by no means invalidate the revolutionary concept of Bitcoin as a superior currency.

ya.ya.yo!


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October 30, 2014, 03:50:00 PM
 #12

Thank you for reminding on the bigger picture!

Personally, I did never understand all the doomsday talk going on in the last weeks. I think people have extremely inflated expectations and lack patience in regard to the value appreciation of Bitcoin.
Bitcoins' rise so far has been extremely fast compared to movements in most traditional markets. Yet people expect it to continue without any interruption.

I think the current period of depressed prices and sideways/down movement could even continue for another year. That would not be extraordinary in any respect and would by no means invalidate the revolutionary concept of Bitcoin as a superior currency.

ya.ya.yo!



I am not a chartist, but the chart for BTC is clearly not "sideways" but more like a constant decay from the peak.  I don't see any "support" or floor except the 2012 and early 2013 data.  Good luck.  My BTC was cancelled by coinbase and they indirectly did me a favor as it's been dropping since my order.

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October 30, 2014, 06:15:48 PM
 #13

I keep buying the dips too early!

Last trade in at 346 and then watch it drop $10 lol

All in all though still (re) accumulating. Sometimes I need to sell to cover short term cash flow... Whenecer that happened I feel nervous about holding less btc. It's a strange thing, especially considering there are still a lot of people don't even know what it is still. Let alone have an opinion on how much they should have!

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October 30, 2014, 06:19:41 PM
Last edit: October 30, 2014, 06:33:13 PM by ElectricMucus
 #14

Yeah that's the potential market cap based upon fixed supply of 21mil Bitcoins vs. current market cap based upon the supply of total mined Bitcoins argument. Both camps have some points but neither is a good measure of economic value imo.

I'd like to propose the total USD transaction value as an alternative, and while this is not inflation corrected we aren't yet at a timespan where that matters much.
https://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume-usd?timespan=2year&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=7&show_header=true&scale=1&address=


All things considered $300 per Bitcoin is still pretty good.

Good point, but: USD tx volume is more of an economic, i.e. fundamental metric. I specifically set out to look at the market valuation.

Market cap isn't really such a bad proxy for that... I'd argue that the biggest counter argument against using total_coins*price is that 'all mined' is not identical to 'all in use or being traded'. On the other hand, mining is a huge price factor, I'm sure everyone agrees. And the market cap definition based on total coins /does/ account for that. So perhaps the absolute mcap numbers are off, but the relative change should be reasonably well motivated...

Reason: there were 8 million new coins created out of thin air in the last 3+ years, and the market had to absorb them somehow (even if they are hoarded, at the time of their creation, their value was based on market value per unit, so someone who puts $1000 worth of coins into cold storage is effectively keeping that value in Bitcoin). Mcap does account for that, even if some initial number of coins is out of circulation/trading.

Well, if you include all Bitcoins (newly mined, hoarded, spent) by definition, yes but then the market price times issued coins becomes the only correct metric, there isn't even any use for a moving average if you do that.

But have a look at this chart:


It's the past two years of price movement and USD transaction volume movement scaled so they both sum up to the same area.
During the run-up the scaled transaction volume was more or less consistently above the price, that changed after the last ATH. I'm not going as far as saying it's the reason for the bear market, but it's certainly interesting.
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October 30, 2014, 06:39:11 PM
 #15

Well, if you include all Bitcoins (newly mined, hoarded, spent) by definition, yes but then the market price times issued coins becomes the only correct metric, there isn't even any use for a moving average if you do that.

But have a look at this chart:


It's the past two years of price movement and USD transaction volume movement scaled so they both sum up to the same area.
During the run-up the scaled transaction volume was more or less consistently above the price, that changed after the last ATH. I'm not going as far as saying it's the reason for the bear market, but it's certainly interesting.

By price (and tx volume) movement you mean rate of change, or just absolute price? And I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'scaled so they sum up to the same area'. You mean scaled so they initially sum up?

I'm wondering if this is similar to an observation I also made: network growth seems to have slowed down, while price seems to have continued growing as fast before (at least until recently).

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October 30, 2014, 07:00:06 PM
 #16

By price (and tx volume) movement you mean rate of change, or just absolute price? And I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'scaled so they sum up to the same area'. You mean scaled so they initially sum up?

I'm wondering if this is similar to an observation I also made: network growth seems to have slowed down, while price seems to have continued growing as fast before (at least until recently).
Just the absolute price, not rate of change, I meant the price over time. The scaling is just the sum of all usd transaction value ticks divided by the sum of all price ticks over a two year period. (made with blockchain.info csv and libreoffice). The bright red areas and the bright blue areas should contain the same amount of pixels.

Yes I think that is related to your observation, how I interpret it is that during the last months people have hoarded bitcoins rather than spent them. This may be caused buy the declining price as well but I the relationship is probably more complex than that. Case in point is hoarding doesn't contribute to bullish price action, it just dampens bearish price action.
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October 30, 2014, 09:42:44 PM
 #17

By price (and tx volume) movement you mean rate of change, or just absolute price? And I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'scaled so they sum up to the same area'. You mean scaled so they initially sum up?

I'm wondering if this is similar to an observation I also made: network growth seems to have slowed down, while price seems to have continued growing as fast before (at least until recently).
Just the absolute price, not rate of change, I meant the price over time. The scaling is just the sum of all usd transaction value ticks divided by the sum of all price ticks over a two year period. (made with blockchain.info csv and libreoffice). The bright red areas and the bright blue areas should contain the same amount of pixels.

Yes I think that is related to your observation, how I interpret it is that during the last months people have hoarded bitcoins rather than spent them. This may be caused buy the declining price as well but I the relationship is probably more complex than that. Case in point is hoarding doesn't contribute to bullish price action, it just dampens bearish price action.

Could be a combination. Decreased adoption growth leads to reduced bullish action, increased hoarding leads to reduced bearish action. The result is the extremely stretched out correction in time (as opposed to the more drastic correction in price in 2011).

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October 30, 2014, 11:26:01 PM
 #18

By price (and tx volume) movement you mean rate of change, or just absolute price? And I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'scaled so they sum up to the same area'. You mean scaled so they initially sum up?

I'm wondering if this is similar to an observation I also made: network growth seems to have slowed down, while price seems to have continued growing as fast before (at least until recently).
Just the absolute price, not rate of change, I meant the price over time. The scaling is just the sum of all usd transaction value ticks divided by the sum of all price ticks over a two year period. (made with blockchain.info csv and libreoffice). The bright red areas and the bright blue areas should contain the same amount of pixels.

Yes I think that is related to your observation, how I interpret it is that during the last months people have hoarded bitcoins rather than spent them. This may be caused buy the declining price as well but I the relationship is probably more complex than that. Case in point is hoarding doesn't contribute to bullish price action, it just dampens bearish price action.

Could be a combination. Decreased adoption growth leads to reduced bullish action, increased hoarding leads to reduced bearish action. The result is the extremely stretched out correction in time (as opposed to the more drastic correction in price in 2011).

Your backdated trigger hasn't gone bullish yet? What's up with your other thread?
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October 31, 2014, 03:25:07 AM
 #19

Well i like to see the sentiment goes negative and ppl stop talking moon and shit,

we need desperation to reach the point where the next rally really can start.
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October 31, 2014, 04:11:51 AM
 #20

Good post as always oda.krell.

The way I see it, is that during the downside of the infamous "bubbles" (I prefer accumulation/distribution cycles), all those coins bought on the way up (and from previous accumulations) are being sold to somebody. Somebody with a higher probability to hold them. That causes supply to dry up and the price inevitably rises. Sellers remove their orders and the hype begins again, slowly at first, then rising to unsustainable levels before a few large players begin to take profits, and the cycle begins again.

Smart investors I think are testing the sellers for final support points before a fairly large markup campaign.

Bitcoin is not dead nor does its blockchain sleep.
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