I warned you

[FlowerMatt]

We dont care about the price of bitcoin with fiat money. For us 1bitcoin=1bitcoin and this a real value and not comparison with fiat scam money.

That's the best way to look atit a lot of people are to fussed about it being worth this much in fiat

Well sometimes it's a person's job to do just that..

[albus]

I doubt that exchanges are manipulating the price down, on the contrary they are interested to pump it up but can't do much now.
The bubble has to properly deflate and then the Willy clones will pump the price up, after the last ATH will be broken new bagholders will rush in.

Chinese exchanges are nothing but exchange, there is no trading fees.
Their profit come from something else...
People deposit their BTC, the exchange sell the BTC for FIAT and give a % interest (in BTC) on the account.
The Bitcoins does not exist but it is so improbable that people withdraw that the scam can go on for a while.
Example :
I deposit 100 BTC.
The exchange sell my BTC for 1000 USD/BTC, they get 100K USD in da pocket.
I do not withdraw or sell my BTC because the exchange give me interest in BTC.
They push the price down to 900 USD/BTC with totally fake volume.
I now have 100 BTC + 2 BTC interest on my account.
The thing is, my 102 BTC are now worth 91800 USD so I lost 8200 USD to earn 2 BTC.
Repeat.
Profit !! (the exchange, not me)
They'll keep doing it until Bitcoin is worth zero unless we stop them.

if the price goes down is because someone has sold bitcoin to fiat at that price
profit of exchanges is in bitcoin volume

You don't get it. The Bitcoin on an exchange are not real Bitcoin.
Those Bitcoins are not on the blockchain and therefore can be faked.

Chinese exchange have no trading fees.

not real bitcoins but claims on real bitcoins, just go there and withdraw your bitcoins...
The issue is just a matter of counterparty risk, when you have so many exchanges doing fractional reserve, but then again, people should just not leave their BTC on any exchange's account... The same goes for securities trading.

[turvarya]

There is no such thing as manipulation for a peer to peer currency.

Traders around the world will buy if there is a perceived discount for bitcoin.

Exchanges are not peer to peer ...

Exactly. I'm afraid there's not much we can do about price manipulation and it really is disheartening. There's no way to tell what the current value of bitcoin is and even the peak price looks to have been manipulated to there.

Exactly , I agree with #turvarya . It is only a question of manipulation and the exchanges don't help the "peer-to-peer" idea.

Producers and sellers will only sell the coin on the exchange which quote them the best price.

Anyone who think the price can be manipulated, care to give the mechanic on how this can be done?

It is discussed here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=866258.0

What is being said there is total horseshit.

Conditions to manipulate price for long term simultaneously on all exchanges do not exists.

Do you also believe the stock market can not be manipulated?

The stock market can be manipulated however it is not manipulated by the exchanges, it can potentially be manipulated by market participants (although this is very rare as the stock market is heavily regulated).

My ass, it is rare. It even happened here in Austria.
Whenever I told a people here in Austria, that the stock market can be manipulated, they told me it is not possible, since "free market and regulation and stuff"
Now, we have a court decision that says: Yes, it was manipulated. And that is just a case, where we could proof it, since people made stupid mistakes.

So, please live in your dream world, where bad things are not happening because off  "free market and regulation and stuff". I am really done discussing this topic with ignorant people.

[albus]

There is no such thing as manipulation for a peer to peer currency.

Traders around the world will buy if there is a perceived discount for bitcoin.

Exchanges are not peer to peer ...

Exactly. I'm afraid there's not much we can do about price manipulation and it really is disheartening. There's no way to tell what the current value of bitcoin is and even the peak price looks to have been manipulated to there.

Exactly , I agree with #turvarya . It is only a question of manipulation and the exchanges don't help the "peer-to-peer" idea.

Producers and sellers will only sell the coin on the exchange which quote them the best price.

Anyone who think the price can be manipulated, care to give the mechanic on how this can be done?

It is discussed here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=866258.0

What is being said there is total horseshit.

Conditions to manipulate price for long term simultaneously on all exchanges do not exists.

Do you also believe the stock market can not be manipulated?

The stock market can be manipulated however it is not manipulated by the exchanges, it can potentially be manipulated by market participants (although this is very rare as the stock market is heavily regulated).

My ass, it is rare. It even happened here in Austria.
Whenever I told a people here in Austria, that the stock market can be manipulated, they told me it is not possible, since "free market and regulation and stuff"
Now, we have a court decision that says: Yes, it was manipulated. And that is just a case, where we could proof it, since people made stupid mistakes.

So, please live in your dream world, where bad things are not happening because off  "free market and regulation and stuff". I am really done discussing this topic with ignorant people.

It's indeed not rare, but it's usually not the market price being manipulated, not consistently for a long time at least, that would be way too expensive! unless you are the Fed.


For example, the bad guys will manipulate a close or a fixing, on which they have a lot of derivatives settling. That way they get more return on manipulation. See the recent manipulation cases : FX or LIBOR, it all relates to fixing affecting other products, like bank customer lending rates, FX contracts...

[bitboy11]

Bitcoin will survive and thrive!
However, with impending regulations, it will become a mainstream coin available on everyone's smartphone one day.
The new and improved Alt/Cryptocurrencies will thrive anonymously and when a new star is born, they will also be brought into the mainstream.

[BitCoinNutJob]

I've been warning Bitcoiners for over a year about the dangers of the big, centralized exchanges like CoinBase, BTC-E, and BitStamp.

These exchanges are manipulating the price of Bitcoin on a colossal scale.  Just as the Karpeles 'trading bot' pumped the price of BTC last November, new trading bots at the big exchanges are artificially deflating the price so they can 'buy in' at the lowest rates.

see https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-price-manipulation-centralized-exchanges-seems-coordinated/

Do not believe the current price of Bitcoin - it is not representative of the true value and potential of the currency. 

THE PRICE OF BITCOIN AS QUOTED ON THE MAJOR EXCHANGES IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER FRAUD.

yeah it should be way way higher totally undervalued

[Erdogan]

When everybody tries to manipulate everyone else, it evens out.

[turvarya]

When everybody tries to manipulate everyone else, it evens out.

That is not a good way to look at something.
That would  work, if the forces who are working against each other are equivalent in strength and that is just stupid to assume.

[Bitcoin Seller]

I've been warning Bitcoiners for over a year about the dangers of the big, centralized exchanges like CoinBase, BTC-E, and BitStamp.

These exchanges are manipulating the price of Bitcoin on a colossal scale.  Just as the Karpeles 'trading bot' pumped the price of BTC last November, new trading bots at the big exchanges are artificially deflating the price so they can 'buy in' at the lowest rates.

see https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-price-manipulation-centralized-exchanges-seems-coordinated/

Do not believe the current price of Bitcoin - it is not representative of the true value and potential of the currency. 

THE PRICE OF BITCOIN AS QUOTED ON THE MAJOR EXCHANGES IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER FRAUD.

yeah it should be way way higher totally undervalued

Are you saying that the current price is much low then it should be ? how much 1 BTC should worth at your opinion ?

[Ludi]

We dont care about the price of bitcoin with fiat money. For us 1bitcoin=1bitcoin and this a real value and not comparison with fiat scam money.

That's the best way to look atit a lot of people are to fussed about it being worth this much in fiat

Well sometimes it's a person's job to do just that..

I can understand the fascination with speculation, but not everyone is concerned with the value of what it is today but of course the people who want to make a pretty penny from it as fast as they can are.

[hilariousandco]

yeah it should be way way higher totally undervalued

Are you saying that the current price is much low then it should be ? how much 1 BTC should worth at your opinion ?

The price is always essentially going to be determined by supply and demand so once the demand goes up so should the price theoretically, and I believe bitcoin has only scratched the surface of its usefulness so far, so yes, the price should reflect that at some point in the future. As long as we can keep pushing adoption to the masses, which I'm sure it will achieve over time, the value should follow.

[BitCoinNutJob]

I've been warning Bitcoiners for over a year about the dangers of the big, centralized exchanges like CoinBase, BTC-E, and BitStamp.

These exchanges are manipulating the price of Bitcoin on a colossal scale.  Just as the Karpeles 'trading bot' pumped the price of BTC last November, new trading bots at the big exchanges are artificially deflating the price so they can 'buy in' at the lowest rates.

see https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-price-manipulation-centralized-exchanges-seems-coordinated/

Do not believe the current price of Bitcoin - it is not representative of the true value and potential of the currency. 

THE PRICE OF BITCOIN AS QUOTED ON THE MAJOR EXCHANGES IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER FRAUD.

yeah it should be way way higher totally undervalued

Are you saying that the current price is much low then it should be ? how much 1 BTC should worth at your opinion ?

IMO we should all ditch fiat currency so 1 BTC should be worth 1 BTC. 

[TYT]

IMO we should all ditch fiat currency so 1 BTC should be worth 1 BTC. 

1btc always will be worth 1btc, but maybe in the future we wont peg it to fiat or fiat dies and bitcoin will take on its own worth. That would be awesome.

[Erdogan]

When everybody tries to manipulate everyone else, it evens out.

That is not a good way to look at something.
That would  work, if the forces who are working against each other are equivalent in strength and that is just stupid to assume.

Right, ok, let me try another angle: If someone is to forcibly stop everyone else (but not themselves) to try to manipulate, it is even worse. But you know, the market can handle it. If you can't - stay away (i.e. hold).

[vipgelsi]

IMO we should all ditch fiat currency so 1 BTC should be worth 1 BTC. 

1btc always will be worth 1btc, but maybe in the future we wont peg it to fiat or fiat dies and bitcoin will take on its own worth. That would be awesome.

Yes i concur.

[turvarya]

When everybody tries to manipulate everyone else, it evens out.

That is not a good way to look at something.
That would  work, if the forces who are working against each other are equivalent in strength and that is just stupid to assume.

Right, ok, let me try another angle: If someone is to forcibly stop everyone else (but not themselves) to try to manipulate, it is even worse. But you know, the market can handle it. If you can't - stay away (i.e. hold).

They are not exactly sending tanks against each other.
There is one side, who wants the price to go down, there is another side who wants the price to go up. They are not all working against each other trying to reach thousand of different goals. Someone might be your ally today and your enemy tomorrow.
"The market can handle it", is just a stupid statement, that means nothing.  If someone would drop some atomic bombs on the USA, "the market" could also handle that.

[Addition]

Read the article on CCN, I'm actually friend with of the contributors there.

I don't see any quantitative evidence? Can someone explain to me the manipulation that's going on please, because I don't understand

[Pierre11]

IMO we should all ditch fiat currency so 1 BTC should be worth 1 BTC. 

1btc always will be worth 1btc, but maybe in the future we wont peg it to fiat or fiat dies and bitcoin will take on its own worth. That would be awesome.

That's where we are headed.

I remember seeing a picture that said:

"Where we're going - We won't have to exchange back to USD or CNY"

Thats the point of a currency!

[arbitrage001]

There is no such thing as manipulation for a peer to peer currency.

Traders around the world will buy if there is a perceived discount for bitcoin.

Exchanges are not peer to peer ...

Exactly. I'm afraid there's not much we can do about price manipulation and it really is disheartening. There's no way to tell what the current value of bitcoin is and even the peak price looks to have been manipulated to there.

Exactly , I agree with #turvarya . It is only a question of manipulation and the exchanges don't help the "peer-to-peer" idea.

Producers and sellers will only sell the coin on the exchange which quote them the best price.

Anyone who think the price can be manipulated, care to give the mechanic on how this can be done?

It is discussed here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=866258.0

What is being said there is total horseshit.

Conditions to manipulate price for long term simultaneously on all exchanges do not exists.

Do you also believe the stock market can not be manipulated?

The stock market can be manipulated however it is not manipulated by the exchanges, it can potentially be manipulated by market participants (although this is very rare as the stock market is heavily regulated).

My ass, it is rare. It even happened here in Austria.
Whenever I told a people here in Austria, that the stock market can be manipulated, they told me it is not possible, since "free market and regulation and stuff"
Now, we have a court decision that says: Yes, it was manipulated. And that is just a case, where we could proof it, since people made stupid mistakes.

So, please live in your dream world, where bad things are not happening because off  "free market and regulation and stuff". I am really done discussing this topic with ignorant people.

Stock market exchange is not peer to peer. It is regulated by the country government and the country central banks as well as profitability of the companies.

Bitcoin is not regulated by one entity or one bank or one exchange (Mtgox) anymore. It is purely based on supply and demand from people all over the world.

[Jesu]

IMO we should all ditch fiat currency so 1 BTC should be worth 1 BTC. 

1btc always will be worth 1btc, but maybe in the future we wont peg it to fiat or fiat dies and bitcoin will take on its own worth. That would be awesome.

That's where we are headed.

I remember seeing a picture that said:

"Where we're going - We won't have to exchange back to USD or CNY"

Thats the point of a currency!

As much as I would like this to happen I'm not sure we'll see it within our lifetime. The most we can probably hope for is bitcoin to co-exist alongside fiat.