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Author Topic: Economic Inequality  (Read 8563 times)
Atdhe
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December 03, 2014, 05:52:35 AM
 #101

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If you have to leave an inheritance in 30-40 years, would you rather bury some dollars today or save equivalent bitcoins?

That isnot the good way of thinking. If you want to leave inheritance and you want to maximize it, you should invest the money into real business and it does not matter which money. USD is now better than BTC exactly at this. You have much wider investment possibilities with USD than BTC.

The idea to sit on money and let their value rises, which is normal by bitcoin, probably made your thought unclear. Not everything is about money, it is just a proxy. It is about economy in the end.

If I were forced to sit on money for decades (which I am a bit), the way is of course to buy BTC. But the market opportunities are in USD. The fiat money maybe lose most if the value, but big businesses were created with them and such biz can produce money to owner in any currency.

So yes... people who are unable to create anything and gotsome money by accident and they have the only two opportunities - to leave money at bank or change them to BTC - those people should buy at least some BTC. The other people shouldconsider investing the money into economy and their work.

It is exactly my story here. I have registered myself at this forum in summer 2011. I was considering buying bitcoins fof few thousands. It seems to be like bad decision that I did not do it, but in fact, it was not.

- 100x appreciation by now seems to be like certaininty, but things might go wrong and appreciation could have been much smaller

- I would be forced to sell BTC's as price went up, so I would not make 100x profit, probably much less

- I would maybe not have enough money for my investment in IT. Maybe the extra few thousands caused that I actually made much more money during the 3.5 years with fiat money economy. Now I am buying BTC of course.

Writing off USD in 2014 is simply ridiculous idea.
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Erdogan
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December 03, 2014, 08:43:44 AM
 #102

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If you have to leave an inheritance in 30-40 years, would you rather bury some dollars today or save equivalent bitcoins?

That isnot the good way of thinking. If you want to leave inheritance and you want to maximize it, you should invest the money into real business and it does not matter which money. USD is now better than BTC exactly at this. You have much wider investment possibilities with USD than BTC.

The idea to sit on money and let their value rises, which is normal by bitcoin, probably made your thought unclear. Not everything is about money, it is just a proxy. It is about economy in the end.

If I were forced to sit on money for decades (which I am a bit), the way is of course to buy BTC. But the market opportunities are in USD. The fiat money maybe lose most if the value, but big businesses were created with them and such biz can produce money to owner in any currency.

So yes... people who are unable to create anything and gotsome money by accident and they have the only two opportunities - to leave money at bank or change them to BTC - those people should buy at least some BTC. The other people shouldconsider investing the money into economy and their work.

It is exactly my story here. I have registered myself at this forum in summer 2011. I was considering buying bitcoins fof few thousands. It seems to be like bad decision that I did not do it, but in fact, it was not.

- 100x appreciation by now seems to be like certaininty, but things might go wrong and appreciation could have been much smaller

- I would be forced to sell BTC's as price went up, so I would not make 100x profit, probably much less

- I would maybe not have enough money for my investment in IT. Maybe the extra few thousands caused that I actually made much more money during the 3.5 years with fiat money economy. Now I am buying BTC of course.

Writing off USD in 2014 is simply ridiculous idea.

When you talk about the dollar here, you really talk about three fundamentally different things. One is to hold the dollar, the second is to store dollars in an account, which (in a sound savings and loan regime) is the same as investing, except you let others take investment decisions in order to get some safety in exchange for a smaller part of the profit. The third thing is direct investment, which is exactly NOT holding the dollars but rather holding something else of value.

It is prudent to save some of your value, and some must be held in money just to make daily exchanges. In a freedom environment, it is up to the saver to decide what is to be saved in money and what is to be invested. All the wisdom that an individual is able to acquire is used for this. A prudent way is to first make sure that you have some money set aside. If a safe bank is available, use that (which means someone else is using your value for investments), then consider investing.

So that is the platform of language to start the discussion.

If you only have money available, that you know will loose value (due to experience and due to the expressed goal of the managers of that money), you will tend to invest. This is staging the scene by the managers of the money system, in reality they extract value out of the holdings of the constituents. The value is extracted on all levels: The money itself, bank deposits through the reduced interest rate, and investments through the low expected return, which might seem better than holding money and bank deposit, but which carries increased risk of asset value destruction.

So your answer to the diminishing value of the standard money is to hold less money and find some other way.

My answer is change to better money.

There is no ethical problem: The forced investments are often bad investments with negative wealth creation, the effects on investments are socialized anyway, so it does not make much difference who in society does it, and you could even view holding bitcoin as an investment creating a new and better money system.

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December 03, 2014, 02:29:16 PM
 #103

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A dollar in 1980's used to go a lot farther than a dollar today. Bitcoin has built in mechanisms to prevent this from happening. That is the beauty.

Since your chosen date of 1980 [34 years ago], the USD has depreciated approximately as much as BTC has in just one year [one year, YTD].
That is the beauty.

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December 03, 2014, 03:04:12 PM
 #104

...
A dollar in 1980's used to go a lot farther than a dollar today. Bitcoin has built in mechanisms to prevent this from happening. That is the beauty.

Since your chosen date of 1980 [34 years ago], the USD has depreciated approximately as much as BTC has in just one year [one year, YTD].
That is the beauty.



What about two years?

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."   - Henry Ford
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December 03, 2014, 03:17:57 PM
 #105

^There was a time in the past when Bitcoin prices skyrocketed.  There was a time when BTCeanie BTCaby prices skyrocketed.  That time is over.  Why is this so difficult for some to understand? 
Artificial scarcity is a marketing gimmick used by both Ty Co. and Bitcoin.  That gimmick works on the less-educated for a while, until it doesn't. 



Cry
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December 03, 2014, 05:39:25 PM
 #106

You start from an assumption that economic inequality is a bad thing and that the gap between rich and poor should decrease. You will never ever get consensus on that.
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December 04, 2014, 05:32:15 AM
 #107

Poor people are poor not because they do not have money, but because they can not/do not want to use money properly.
E.g. they invest too little and spend too much.

To give money to poor solves nothing, because the money are immediately spend and flow to capitalists. It already happens. Government taxes people with money and gives it to poor, but nothing changes and if yes, then it changes only to higher economical stratification.

There is no point to give money to poor people. The challenge is to persuade poor people to stop acting like idiots. But that is:
1. hard to be done
2. neither rich nor poor want it - poor have the misery of life and they do not want to listen to talks how they have to save etc. when they can not buy everything they want or need; rich people are well aware that it is better to deal with mass of poor or relatively poor consumists from which fraction ends like homeless, than to deal with tough competition
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December 04, 2014, 02:46:44 PM
 #108

You start from an assumption that economic inequality is a bad thing and that the gap between rich and poor should decrease. You will never ever get consensus on that.

if you define consensus in bitcoin terms >50% then im sure you get to the consensus that it is a problem, just from the fact that most people are poor...

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December 04, 2014, 03:48:52 PM
 #109

^There was a time in the past when Bitcoin prices skyrocketed.  There was a time when BTCeanie BTCaby prices skyrocketed.  That time is over.  Why is this so difficult for some to understand? 
Artificial scarcity is a marketing gimmick used by both Ty Co. and Bitcoin.  That gimmick works on the less-educated for a while, until it doesn't. 



Cry
There was a time when morons compared a true gimmick like beanie babies to a piece of technological disruption like Bitcoin. Oh wait, these times are still not over.

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NotLambchop
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December 04, 2014, 04:11:48 PM
 #110

...There was a time when morons compared a true gimmick like beanie babies to a piece of technological disruption like Bitcoin. Oh wait, these times are still not over.

This moron stacked cheddar throughout 2013.  Lol @ "technological disruption."  Continue being angry & mangling marketing buzz phrases Cheesy
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December 05, 2014, 06:22:23 AM
 #111

Poor people are poor not because they do not have money, but because they can not/do not want to use money properly.
E.g. they invest too little and spend too much.
To give money to poor solves nothing, because the money are immediately spend and flow to capitalists. It already happens. Government taxes people with money and gives it to poor, but nothing changes and if yes, then it changes only to higher economical stratification.
There is no point to give money to poor people. The challenge is to persuade poor people to stop acting like idiots. But that is:
1. hard to be done
2. neither rich nor poor want it - poor have the misery of life and they do not want to listen to talks how they have to save etc. when they can not buy everything they want or need; rich people are well aware that it is better to deal with mass of poor or relatively poor consumists from which fraction ends like homeless, than to deal with tough competition

It's funny because the super rich make the same argument for not giving their money to you.
I do not buy that "superrich fenomena". I am fairly rich from zero. Yes, I do not have billions or hundreds of millions dolars, but I see even this mark is possible to reach. The worst is the first million, truly. Then the rest is about motivation.

It is easy to describe / harder to do - if you want money that belong to someone else - simply sell him what he wants and buy it elsewhere cheaper.

Many of superrich people did exactly that. Everyone could make at least millions of USD, if he read the reality well 3 years ago. Everyone who has millions now can be superrich in 3 years. It is only about hard work. Think brighter than other people, join 2 or more relatively cheap sources and sell the output relatively high (yet lower than competition). It is no mystery to become rich.
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December 05, 2014, 08:01:54 AM
 #112

This issues is talked about a lot but not often side by side with working to find better opportunity. It's a law of nature that there won't be enough of the best "meat" for everyone to catch and eat. Competition is natural and I feel like this requirement in nature is ignored in this conversation. Opportunity exists for everyone to increase their income, complaining only defers action.

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December 05, 2014, 01:26:01 PM
 #113

Equality? As far as I know there is no such thing as equality. If we live in a perfectly 'equal' world, hell we might not even be around and survive. Fact is there will always be one part of society that lives life comfortably and there is another group bound to serve these rich people. You can't have everyone rich and if this is the case, then who is going to work to serve the rich people? I hope I make a point here.

Well, you might complain why there are so many rich people but the fact is they get rich mainly not only because they use their brain but also because they are willing to take risk and when opportunity arises...know how to seize it.

NotLambchop
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December 05, 2014, 01:58:32 PM
 #114

Equality? As far as I know there is no such thing as equality. If we live in a perfectly 'equal' world, hell we might not even be around and survive.

Why not?
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December 06, 2014, 12:37:07 AM
 #115

Equality? As far as I know there is no such thing as equality. If we live in a perfectly 'equal' world, hell we might not even be around and survive.

Why not?

I would like to paraphrase a quote in a different context
"It is through competition that the human race evolves"
You compete for everything... to the winner goes the spoils. You can't say that a perfectly equal world is good.

NotLambchop
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December 06, 2014, 05:19:41 AM
 #116

Equality? As far as I know there is no such thing as equality. If we live in a perfectly 'equal' world, hell we might not even be around and survive.

Why not?

I would like to paraphrase a quote in a different context
"It is through competition that the human race evolves"

Sure, and...
"It is through cooperation that the human race evolves"
"It is through mutation that the human race evolves"
"It is through adaptation that the human race evolves"
"It is through time that the human race evolves"

You're right though, competition is a part of it.  But when a heavyweight boxer and a 3-year-old girl are competing, it's better described as "slaughter."  Though the loli has a better chance against the boxer than some poor, uneducated piece of trailer trash has competing against a rich ivy league d00d.

Quote
You compete for everything... to the winner goes the spoils. You can't say that a perfectly equal world is good.

You mean a world without economic inequality?  It's not realistic, but certainly something to shoot for.
But we aren't talking about "a perfectly equal world" here.  Just a world where inequality is a few orders of magnitude lower.  
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