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Author Topic: Economic Inequality  (Read 8564 times)
brian_23452
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November 25, 2014, 04:04:43 PM
 #61

Common sense tells us that wealth inequality isn't "the" problem or even "a" problem.  Attempting to equally distribute wealth only creates problems.  Understanding the/a problem is key to understanding why Bitcoin is the/a solution.

It is "the" problem because the OP identified it as such for this thread.  

OP could start a thread that identified too many stars in the Milky Way as a problem, that still doesn't make it so.


I know, and the fanboys like you would somehow find a way to make bitcoin the solution for that, too  Grin
More seriously though, obviously if one is wealthy one probably doesn't consider it a problem, so there is no doubt that there are people who wouldn't consider it a problem.  However OP started a topic to discuss it, so why not just let the discussion go?  That's the whole point about having different threads, with different topics.  You could just easily start a discussion on how wealth inequality is not a problem and then everyone would be happy.

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shawshankinmate37927
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November 25, 2014, 04:30:50 PM
 #62

Common sense tells us that wealth inequality isn't "the" problem or even "a" problem.  Attempting to equally distribute wealth only creates problems.  Understanding the/a problem is key to understanding why Bitcoin is the/a solution.

It is "the" problem because the OP identified it as such for this thread.  
OP could start a thread that identified too many stars in the Milky Way as a problem, that still doesn't make it so.

I know, and the fanboys like you would somehow find a way to make bitcoin the solution for that, too  Grin
More seriously though, obviously if one is wealthy one probably doesn't consider it a problem, so there is no doubt that there are people who wouldn't consider it a problem.  However OP started a topic to discuss it, so why not just let the discussion go?  That's the whole point about having different threads, with different topics.  You could just easily start a discussion on how wealth inequality is not a problem and then everyone would be happy.

No, fanboys like me don't think Bitcoin is going to solve imaginary, non-existent problems.  It does, however, solve the problem of fiat, debt-based, inflationary currencies by offering people an alternative to them.  People are of course free to discuss imaginary, non-existent problems.  I just think it would be more productive to identify the real problem.

It's also important to point out that not only is wealth inequality not a problem, it's a good thing.  People who are lazy, slack off, are always late, lie, cheat, steal, etc. shouldn't enjoy the same standard of living as someone who works longer, harder, is honest, etc.  Currently, there are too many people that fall into the former category (bankers and politicians) that are able to take advantage of people in the latter category.  The primary tool that allows them to do this is fiat currency, particularly the ability to expand the supply of it.  They get to create the stuff that honest people have to work for.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."   - Henry Ford
brian_23452
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November 25, 2014, 04:42:09 PM
 #63

Common sense tells us that wealth inequality isn't "the" problem or even "a" problem.  Attempting to equally distribute wealth only creates problems.  Understanding the/a problem is key to understanding why Bitcoin is the/a solution.

It is "the" problem because the OP identified it as such for this thread.  
OP could start a thread that identified too many stars in the Milky Way as a problem, that still doesn't make it so.

I know, and the fanboys like you would somehow find a way to make bitcoin the solution for that, too  Grin
More seriously though, obviously if one is wealthy one probably doesn't consider it a problem, so there is no doubt that there are people who wouldn't consider it a problem.  However OP started a topic to discuss it, so why not just let the discussion go?  That's the whole point about having different threads, with different topics.  You could just easily start a discussion on how wealth inequality is not a problem and then everyone would be happy.

No, fanboys like me don't think Bitcoin is going to solve imaginary, non-existent problems.  It does, however, solve the problem of fiat, debt-based, inflationary currencies by offering people an alternative to them.  People are of course free to discuss imaginary, non-existent problems.  I just think it would be more productive to identify the real problem.

It's also important to point out that not only is wealth inequality not a problem, it's a good thing.  People who are lazy, slack off, are always late, lie, cheat, steal, etc. shouldn't enjoy the same standard of living as someone who works longer, harder, is honest, etc.  Currently, there are too many people that fall into the former category (bankers and politicians) that are able to take advantage of people in the latter category.  The primary tool that allows them to do this is fiat currency, particularly the ability to expand the supply of it.  They get to create the stuff that honest people have to work for.

It has absolutely nothing to do with fiat currency, and this is why bitcoin is not a solution to the "problem" or whatever you want to call it.  It is control of the means of production (historically through force, although the force is more implied these days then actually metted out) that leads to this inequality. 
Yes these days we call these people bankers and politicians; in the past we may have called them Lord, Your Majesty, sir, Pharoah, King, and far too many other titles to list them all here.  Wealth inequality predates fiat currency so it is obviously quite impossible that fiat currency is the cause. 


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shawshankinmate37927
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November 25, 2014, 05:27:42 PM
 #64

No, fanboys like me don't think Bitcoin is going to solve imaginary, non-existent problems.  It does, however, solve the problem of fiat, debt-based, inflationary currencies by offering people an alternative to them.  People are of course free to discuss imaginary, non-existent problems.  I just think it would be more productive to identify the real problem.

It's also important to point out that not only is wealth inequality not a problem, it's a good thing.  People who are lazy, slack off, are always late, lie, cheat, steal, etc. shouldn't enjoy the same standard of living as someone who works longer, harder, is honest, etc.  Currently, there are too many people that fall into the former category (bankers and politicians) that are able to take advantage of people in the latter category.  The primary tool that allows them to do this is fiat currency, particularly the ability to expand the supply of it.  They get to create the stuff that honest people have to work for.

It has absolutely nothing to do with fiat currency, and this is why bitcoin is not a solution to the "problem" or whatever you want to call it.  It is control of the means of production (historically through force, although the force is more implied these days then actually metted out) that leads to this inequality.  
Yes these days we call these people bankers and politicians; in the past we may have called them Lord, Your Majesty, sir, Pharoah, King, and far too many other titles to list them all here.  Wealth inequality predates fiat currency so it is obviously quite impossible that fiat currency is the cause.

You may not see fiat currency as a problem, and that's fine.  The bankers and politicians depend on people that think like you to stay on the fiat hamster wheel so they can continue to enjoy the standard of living they currently enjoy while producing nothing of value.  Your masters don't have to break out the whips and chains as long as you willingly use their fiat.  If enough people stop using their fiat, then perhaps they will resort to more violent means.  I highly doubt they have any desire to become productive members of society.  We'll have to wait and see how things unfold.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."   - Henry Ford
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November 25, 2014, 05:57:46 PM
 #65

...
The bankers and politicians depend on people that think like you...

Nah.
The bankers and politicians depend on stooges like you--to work towards lower taxes on the rich, no minimal wage, to keep repeating nonsense like "wealth inequality is a good thing," etc., etc.
Stay ignorant, angry, and poor Undecided
shawshankinmate37927
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November 25, 2014, 08:39:11 PM
 #66

...
The bankers and politicians depend on people that think like you...

Nah.
The bankers and politicians depend on stooges like you--to work towards lower taxes on the rich, no minimal wage, to keep repeating nonsense like "wealth inequality is a good thing," etc., etc.
Stay ignorant, angry, and poor Undecided

The only stooges that will continue to be ignorant, angry, poor, envious, and befuddled are the ones that plan to keep using their money.  That's okay, using their money is your prerogative.  Enjoy your blissful ignorance.  Grin

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."   - Henry Ford
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November 25, 2014, 11:00:28 PM
 #67

^
Lol, by using "their money" over the course of the last year, I can now afford to buy more than double the amount of "your" money.
More than twice the BTC than if I was stupid enough to "invest" in BTC this time last year.



That's some seriously sound money you got there, Tiger Cheesy  
shawshankinmate37927
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November 26, 2014, 12:46:30 AM
 #68

^
Lol, by using "their money" over the course of the last year, I can now afford to buy more than double the amount of "your" money.
More than twice the BTC than if I was stupid enough to "invest" in BTC this time last year.



That's some seriously sound money you got there, Tiger Cheesy  

The past year, sure.  Let's go back two years.  Those that have been converting their fiat to BTC for two years and dollar cost averaging are better off than those just hodling fiat for two years.  If you dive in head first at the top of the exchange rate swings, then you're doing it wrong.  Let's see where things are in another five or ten years.  Wink

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."   - Henry Ford
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November 26, 2014, 01:10:05 AM
 #69

Yeah, there was a time when BTCeanie BTCabies where a great investment too.
Sadly, that time has passed.  But hey,



From my heart, bro Cry
brian_23452
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November 26, 2014, 12:19:07 PM
 #70

No, fanboys like me don't think Bitcoin is going to solve imaginary, non-existent problems.  It does, however, solve the problem of fiat, debt-based, inflationary currencies by offering people an alternative to them.  People are of course free to discuss imaginary, non-existent problems.  I just think it would be more productive to identify the real problem.

It's also important to point out that not only is wealth inequality not a problem, it's a good thing.  People who are lazy, slack off, are always late, lie, cheat, steal, etc. shouldn't enjoy the same standard of living as someone who works longer, harder, is honest, etc.  Currently, there are too many people that fall into the former category (bankers and politicians) that are able to take advantage of people in the latter category.  The primary tool that allows them to do this is fiat currency, particularly the ability to expand the supply of it.  They get to create the stuff that honest people have to work for.

It has absolutely nothing to do with fiat currency, and this is why bitcoin is not a solution to the "problem" or whatever you want to call it.  It is control of the means of production (historically through force, although the force is more implied these days then actually metted out) that leads to this inequality.  
Yes these days we call these people bankers and politicians; in the past we may have called them Lord, Your Majesty, sir, Pharoah, King, and far too many other titles to list them all here.  Wealth inequality predates fiat currency so it is obviously quite impossible that fiat currency is the cause.

You may not see fiat currency as a problem, and that's fine.  The bankers and politicians depend on people that think like you to stay on the fiat hamster wheel so they can continue to enjoy the standard of living they currently enjoy while producing nothing of value.  Your masters don't have to break out the whips and chains as long as you willingly use their fiat.  If enough people stop using their fiat, then perhaps they will resort to more violent means.  I highly doubt they have any desire to become productive members of society.  We'll have to wait and see how things unfold.

This is simply common sense.  Enormous wealth inequality has existed since the beginning of recorded history.  Please explain, in your own words, how if fiat currency is the "primary tool that allows them to do this", the "problem" predates the cause by many thousands of years? 

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Addition
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November 26, 2014, 04:21:56 PM
 #71

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBSlSUIT-KM

A fellow member just shared this on here - This video should be watched by everyone!!

Our friend Kevin Dowd was mentioned however, there obviously appears to be a division in his initial analysis of BTC


Video synopsis:

Published on Nov 21, 2014
http://www.positivemoney.org/
On Thursday 20th November 2014, for the first time in 170 years, UK parliament has debated the creation of money. Few people know that 97% of our money supply is created not by the government (or the central bank), but by commercial banks in the form of loans.

As the results of our recent poll show, most MPs lack a sufficient understanding of money creation. A worrying number of our MPs do not understand where money comes from. This leaves them ill-equipped to predict another financial crisis, deal with rising debt, housing bubbles or understand a fundamental driver of inequality.
shawshankinmate37927
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November 26, 2014, 11:54:06 PM
 #72

You may not see fiat currency as a problem, and that's fine.  The bankers and politicians depend on people that think like you to stay on the fiat hamster wheel so they can continue to enjoy the standard of living they currently enjoy while producing nothing of value.  Your masters don't have to break out the whips and chains as long as you willingly use their fiat.  If enough people stop using their fiat, then perhaps they will resort to more violent means.  I highly doubt they have any desire to become productive members of society.  We'll have to wait and see how things unfold.

This is simply common sense.  Enormous wealth inequality has existed since the beginning of recorded history.  Please explain, in your own words, how if fiat currency is the "primary tool that allows them to do this", the "problem" predates the cause by many thousands of years? 

You're making two false assumptions:

 1. That wealth inequality is a problem
 2. That problems have only one source.

If we ignore #1 and just focus on #2, then according to your logic, wealth inequality existed before fiat currency, therefore fiat currency can't cause wealth inequality.  This is equivalent to saying, death existed before guns, therefore guns can't cause death.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that a gun is a modern tool that can cause death and that fiat currency is a modern tool that can cause wealth inequality?

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."   - Henry Ford
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November 27, 2014, 07:23:33 AM
 #73

It's a 'problem' not worth losing sleep over, economic equality is never going to happend. I've even seen some advocate "redistributing wealth" like it's gonna happend!

but yes, it's grown and will continue to do so because of interests on interests generation to generation.
And by your question "Who's to blame" I say it's just how humans work.

Hopefully those considered poor have their living standards improved through the years

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brian_23452
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November 27, 2014, 07:35:09 AM
 #74

You may not see fiat currency as a problem, and that's fine.  The bankers and politicians depend on people that think like you to stay on the fiat hamster wheel so they can continue to enjoy the standard of living they currently enjoy while producing nothing of value.  Your masters don't have to break out the whips and chains as long as you willingly use their fiat.  If enough people stop using their fiat, then perhaps they will resort to more violent means.  I highly doubt they have any desire to become productive members of society.  We'll have to wait and see how things unfold.

This is simply common sense.  Enormous wealth inequality has existed since the beginning of recorded history.  Please explain, in your own words, how if fiat currency is the "primary tool that allows them to do this", the "problem" predates the cause by many thousands of years? 

You're making two false assumptions:

 1. That wealth inequality is a problem
 2. That problems have only one source.

If we ignore #1 and just focus on #2, then according to your logic, wealth inequality existed before fiat currency, therefore fiat currency can't cause wealth inequality.  This is equivalent to saying, death existed before guns, therefore guns can't cause death.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that a gun is a modern tool that can cause death and that fiat currency is a modern tool that can cause wealth inequality?


It would be (well actually no, fiat currency doesn't do it but I will assume it for the sake of argument).  And following your logic to it's conclusion, saying bitcoin will solve income inequality is like saying getting rid of guns will stop people from dying. 

Incidentally, yes wealth inequality is a problem, in that 99% of the people on the planet do 100% of the producing but only get to keep 40% of what they produce, while the other 1% that produce nothing, get to keep 60% based entirely on the luck of what family they were born into. 

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oprahwindfury
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ʕ ͡° ᴥ ͡°ʔ *heavy breath


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November 27, 2014, 09:23:45 AM
 #75

Access to quality health care and legal representation is a huge issue that comes with income inequality. Also, if you are poor there is the negative social aspect of it. Others will look down on you, companies looking to hire people will not necessarily pick you up. Who wants to hire someone that is homeless? Huge liability on their part. I think being on the other end of the spectrum can have downsides too but no one is arguing being on the former end is not the worse side.

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teukon
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November 27, 2014, 11:02:22 AM
 #76

Incidentally, yes wealth inequality is a problem, in that 99% of the people on the planet do 100% of the producing but only get to keep 40% of what they produce, while the other 1% that produce nothing, get to keep 60% based entirely on the luck of what family they were born into.  

So am I right in discerning that the problem for you is not in wealth disparity per se, but specifically in wealth disparity at birth?  If two people are born with equal wealth and opportunity but one works hard while the other squanders their resources then is it ok for the more productive person to become wealthier?  Is it ok for him to then afford his children a comparative advantage in wealth and opportunity?

Might it be that the root problem behind wealth inequality is in the love of one's children?
BillyBobZorton
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November 27, 2014, 01:30:05 PM
 #77

It's a 'problem' not worth losing sleep over, economic equality is never going to happend. I've even seen some advocate "redistributing wealth" like it's gonna happend!

but yes, it's grown and will continue to do so because of interests on interests generation to generation.
And by your question "Who's to blame" I say it's just how humans work.

Hopefully those considered poor have their living standards improved through the years
It's not how human work. Humans act like this if there is scarcity, if we reach post scarcity due technology in 1000 years, any currency and forced labour and unequalities is objectively stupid and not necessary.

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NotLambchop
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November 27, 2014, 01:39:35 PM
 #78

Incidentally, yes wealth inequality is a problem, in that 99% of the people on the planet do 100% of the producing but only get to keep 40% of what they produce, while the other 1% that produce nothing, get to keep 60% based entirely on the luck of what family they were born into.  

So am I right in discerning that the problem for you is not in wealth disparity per se, but specifically in wealth disparity at birth?  If two people are born with equal wealth and opportunity but one works hard while the other squanders their resources then is it ok for the more productive person to become wealthier?  Is it ok for him to then afford his children a comparative advantage in wealth and opportunity?

Might it be that the root problem behind wealth inequality is in the love of one's children?

If this justifies anything, it justifies everything.  Those in power today--bankers, politicians, etc.--all either worked for their position, inherited them, or both.

This really is the best of all possible worlds Smiley
brian_23452
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November 27, 2014, 03:27:38 PM
 #79

Incidentally, yes wealth inequality is a problem, in that 99% of the people on the planet do 100% of the producing but only get to keep 40% of what they produce, while the other 1% that produce nothing, get to keep 60% based entirely on the luck of what family they were born into.  

So am I right in discerning that the problem for you is not in wealth disparity per se, but specifically in wealth disparity at birth?  If two people are born with equal wealth and opportunity but one works hard while the other squanders their resources then is it ok for the more productive person to become wealthier?  Is it ok for him to then afford his children a comparative advantage in wealth and opportunity?

Might it be that the root problem behind wealth inequality is in the love of one's children?

I don't think so.  Obviously the problem goes beyond just one thing, or one cause.  The problems with wealth inequality in general are:

1.  I personally think there is a problem where, based on my particular station in life, I am afforded the opportunity to syphon off about 60% of my worker's productivity.  I don't actually produce anything, and yet I get the lions share of the profits of their work.  This isn't because I worked hard to get where I am, although I did.  I am well aware that it is based almost entirely off of where I was born and who I was born to.

2.  Looking at the larger picture we see that despite what the wealthy would have you believe, that they are wealthy because they earned it and worked hard, a quick glance at a list of the 0.1% will show you that in virtually every single case, they are there because they were born there.  As well, if you are in the 99.9%, you are there not because you worked less, but because you were born there.  And there is no crossover, ever.

3.  The wealth disparity itself makes it impossible to change the situation, bitcoin notwithstanding, simply because the wealthy are the ones that make the rules that everyone else has to follow.  In this day and age that often involves money policy but in previous ages it was land use, etc. 


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leen93
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November 27, 2014, 06:50:15 PM
 #80

Nope, it's the corrupt politicians and bankers.  It's the monopoly on the ability to create money that is the problem, not capitalism.
Roll Eyes It's this kind of useless logic that works against progress, not for it.

Progress will only occur when people choose to opt out of the current fiat, debt-based monetary system.  Anyone trying to improve society within the current monetary system is just spinning their wheels.
I am sure a deflationary currency (like bitcoin) is the worst for society in general, it's just a brake on economic growth. But happily we don't need to wory about that, your dreams will never come true  Cheesy I have some bitcoins (because I want to earn some money) but it would be disastrous to society if it would be the main global currency, surpassing the market cap of the dollar... But I'm sure that will never happen and we will not even get close to that =)


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