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Author Topic: why I think cryptocurrency market is a fake  (Read 6193 times)
ponzinomics reloaded (OP)
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November 10, 2014, 02:13:32 AM
Last edit: November 10, 2014, 02:27:30 AM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #1

Hi, this is my first message in the board so greetings everybody.

Well, I have been following the cryptocoin market for a while. I have felt the temptation to get involved quite a few times since it looks the only promising initiative to allow citizens decide their own future. By the way clarify that I am a libertarian, Austrian advocate, despite I am aware of flaws in Austrian economics which makes me a bit a Popperian more that a Hayekian. As an IT contractor I have got involved in projects for Central Banks and Statistical Offices in Europe so I known a bit how the mainstream works and what they intend.

Despite I have thought getting my hands dirty on the crypto world, my (few) approaches to it has been always disappointing. I see that main cryptocoin providers has run away of proposing any ideological battle. Nobody speaks about what ethics is (against morals), what negative liberty means, why the current scientific method (as the foundation of current monetarism) is a logical mistake, what is the difference between positive and normative economics, and what I see in the bitworld is: bits, block chains, mining and hardware. Nothing else. Dissappointing. Huh

So, which is my conclusion of this? If you realize, most of the cryptocompanies have been created out of investors, which instead are feed by Federal Reserve, by BoJ, by ECB injections and by the full mainstream economic machinery. They are no proposing anything new but looking for an alternative way to balance their investments. And this is in my opinion a thief. They have stolen the initial Shatoshi idea, they have occupied it, emptied of any content and they look for to do more of the same carry trade business.  Huh

I have created a discussion board (http://ponzinomics.org/) which I have maintained for 3 months and this is my first attempt trying to hit the market to propose the battle of ideas. The board sits on current mainstream economics and the "current real world", trying to enroll people from all ideologies and trying to make them understand how current system works as a whole. Obviously, as an Austrian I want to convince others why Austrian ideas are better than keynesian models based on the scientific method, but I want to hear opinion of others as well. I have not found this proposal in any place on the whole web, so if you challenge the idea, I want to create a community about it and maybe "evangelize".

That said, I want to hear your opinions about why cryptoworld is not a fake since is funded by the mainstream and does not propose any new ideas just other way to do more of the same thing.
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ponzinomics reloaded (OP)
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November 10, 2014, 02:31:29 AM
 #2

but you should, do not you think?

http://mises.org/document/3970/Denationalisation-of-Money-The-Argument-Refined

http://mises.org//store/Assets/ProductImages/SS408.jpg

What if the government let anyone use a currency of his or her choosing? What if the government permitted entrepreneurs to innovate in the monetary sector, such as by creating digital currencies or minting commodity money?

This is precisely what F.A. Hayek argues.

By special arrangement with the Institute for Economic Affairs, the Mises Institute is pleased to offer a new printing of F.A. Hayek's most radical case for the complete privatization of money: The Denationalisation of Money. He wrote this near the end of his career, after thinking through all the economic arguments for monetary reform and examining the political viability of various proposals. He shows the essential unviability of government money, and calls for a complete free market in the production and distribution and management of money.

This book is the very core of the Hayekian approach to monetary policy, and the book that drew the world's attention to this radical thinker following his Nobel Prize in economics. The argument is substantively similar to Mises's but rather than a gold standard, Hayek argues for completely abandoning government attempts to reform money. The result would be competitive private currencies that permits the market alone to choose the dominant currency the world over.
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November 10, 2014, 02:32:49 AM
 #3

your thought is not wrong. There are a variety of artifacts on the market now  Roll Eyes
ponzinomics reloaded (OP)
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November 10, 2014, 02:38:00 AM
 #4

well, maybe not everything is fake, obviously, and there are actually some genuine companies and people working on a big ideals, the free banking idea is decades old, but I am afraid, part of the market just tries to mislead and distort the original proposal.

What is going on here? Is bitcoin, and the other, about bits or is about society values?
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November 10, 2014, 02:51:34 AM
 #5

OP most smart people are thinking about bitcoin as its own currency to buy food and goods with it as oppose to a FIAT investment scheme, but these smart people are not talking much on bitcointalk as they are busy people. some of us just use bitcointalk as a social forum about the general bitcoin topics rather than the global currency important stuff.

many of us do highlight the ethics such as spout out arguments about BFL and TBF aswell as gox, and other scammers.

but what you do have to realise is that swapping bitcoin for traditional fiat DOES have to occur to move people from the fiat lifestyle and into the bitcoin lifestyle.

to get to the stage of having a proper self managed currency where people work for bitcoins, buy goods with bitcoins and those goods pay businesses and staff in bitcoins (the economic loop) requires a transitional point.

this transitional point is not completed in 5 days, it takes years. welcome to bitcoin, be aware you are still at the early transition stage of innovation before mass adopters come onboard. so most of your points are too early to be appropriate

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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November 10, 2014, 02:53:26 AM
 #6

OP most smart people are thinking about bitcoin as its own currency to buy food and goods with it as oppose to a FIAT investment scheme, but these smart people are not talking much on bitcointalk as they are busy people. some of us just use bitcointalk as a social forum about the general bitcoin topics rather than the global currency important stuff.

many of us do highlight the ethics such as spout out arguments about BFL and TBF aswell as gox, and other scammers.

but what you do have to realise is that swapping bitcoin for traditional fiat DOES have to occur to move people from the fiat lifestyle and into the bitcoin lifestyle. to get to the stage of having a proper self manged currency where people work for bitcoins, buy goods with bitcoins and those goods pay businesses and staff in bitcoins (the economic loop) requires a transitional point.

this transitional point is not completed in 5 days, it takes years. welcome to bitcoin, be aware you are still at the early transition stage of innovation before mass adopters come onboard. so most of your points are too early to be appropriate

Basically what Franky here says. I pretty much follow his thinking in every post! lol


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November 10, 2014, 02:54:19 AM
 #7

I think there are some true innovative applicable cryptocoins in the market, whose dev are dedicated and diligent in their work, and proposing their ideas. It will benefit all of us probably it is not as you expected. But the time will tell you!
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November 10, 2014, 03:00:57 AM
 #8

@ op

If you have not read this I would really recommend it concerning the economics of Bitcoin:

http://nakamotoinstitute.org/shelling-out/

http://web.archive.org/web/20070618142414/http://szabo.best.vwh.net/scarce.html

If you haven't watched this video please do, you will not be disappointed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUNGFZDO8mM

Bitcoin was influenced by Adam Smith’s “Wealth of Nations”, Adam Muller’s “HyperMoney”, Thomas Edison’s “Commodity Currency”, William Feller’s “Probability Theory”, John Nash’s “Ideal Money”, Tim May’s “Crypto-anarchy” and “David Chaum’s “DigiCash” with the help of  Nick Szabo’s acquired knowledge (including “BitGold” & “Scarce Objects”), Wei Dai’s “bmoney”(website & c++ lib.), Hal Finney’s “RPOW & PGP” and Adam Back’s “HashCash”.
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/nlh/summary/v031/31.2gray.html
http://moneymorning.com/ext/bitcoin/videos/html-bitcoin.php?iris=167662&link_source=popup
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_money

Bitcoin is the beginning of the completion of a “Kula Ring”, a unifying solution that bridges among other things, game theory, encryption, economics, finance, programming, and law.

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 03:03:00 AM
 #9

I dont think your thoughts are correct my kind sir.

Sig Space for Rent! PM Me.
ponzinomics reloaded (OP)
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November 10, 2014, 03:04:30 AM
 #10

Thanks for your comments. I am afraid of seeing one thing as current society evolves. I am afraid of seeing a new world reserve currency raising anytime soon, maybe backed in gold. I see governments separating people's currencies from government's currency, and cryptocurrencies being the resource of the poor people, those that did not get a chance for a government paid job. So, to properly understand where cryptoworld fits, it is required to understand where the rest is moving to.

For example, are you aware that there are political initiatives which will allow big companies no getting bankrupted anymore? This will be presented in Brisbane in 2 weeks by G-20.....Where does cryptoworld fit here?
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November 10, 2014, 03:10:38 AM
Last edit: November 10, 2014, 03:26:16 AM by Billbags
 #11

Thanks for your comments. I am afraid of seeing one thing as current society evolves. I am afraid of seeing a new world reserve currency raising anytime soon, maybe backed in gold. I see governments separating people's currencies from government's currency, and cryptocurrencies being the resource of the poor people, those that did not get a chance for a government paid job. So, to properly understand where cryptoworld fits, it is required to understand where the rest is moving to.

For example, are you aware that there are political initiatives which will allow big companies no getting bankrupted anymore? This will be presented in Brisbane in 2 weeks by G-20.....Where does cryptoworld fit here?

Please watch that video and shelling out link I posted. I think this could answer a lot of your questions.

Bitcoin is the p2p payment system to be used on the massive ultra-secure blockchain ledger. You have to research and see all the things the Bitcoin blockchain will enable. Bitcoin should really take off once smart contracts get through their trial period and we can provide the facts to the general public. I believe this will be the point everyone is waiting on. Smart Contracts will enable loans, mortgages and registration of property such as car titles on the blockchain. Once the Bitcoin payment is made the door to the house or car you just bought will open or you will be able to print out your rental agreement. You see Bitcoin is the payment system that will be used for the smart contracts, not only person to person, but the smart contracts have digital agents which will have wallets also. Don't miss the whole point of Bitcoin being the means of payments for all the services that will be running on the blockchain. Thats why it was designed to act like a scarce commodity. Only 21 million will ever be available to be used to pay for all the services that will be available.

Note: I'm talking about Gavins Bitcoin 2.0 smart contracts, not altcoins.

UPDATE:

The first credit to Bitcoin in the white paper was a citation for Wei Dai’s “bmoney”.

The first paragraph of “bmoney”:
“It’s a community where the threat of violence is impotent because violence is impossible, and violence is impossible because its participants cannot be linked to their true names or physical locations”. ~Wei Dai

The Internet and Bitcoin were created to allow people to solve social problems in a novel way: Instead of the ancient formula of “the strongest wins and then beats the crap out of the loser” we all can achieve a peaceful society where both rich and poor, strong and weak can protect their property and freedom on more equal grounds without relying on violent institutions like governments.

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
ponzinomics reloaded (OP)
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November 10, 2014, 03:24:47 AM
Last edit: November 10, 2014, 03:37:36 AM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #12

You have to research and see all the things the Bitcoin blockchain will enable.

I am an IT guy for 15 years, I can figure out what things can be done and I am aware of some of them, but I cannot figure out who will want to do them, when you can work for companies that never get bankrupted and get paid in a gold backed currency. No entrepreneur can compete with these companies, close to governments, whom own the resources, never get bankrupted and trade internationally. So you will have a society with patronage networks and cryptos will be for the excluded ones, the low level class. This is what I see.

That said, I will browse your links. Thanks for them.
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November 10, 2014, 03:36:37 AM
 #13

You have to research and see all the things the Bitcoin blockchain will enable.

I am an IT guy, I can figure out what things can be done and I am aware of some of them, but I cannot figure out who will want to do them, when you can work for companies that never get bankrupted and be paid in a gold backed currency. No entrepreneur can compete with these companies, close to governments, whom own the resources, never get bankrupted and trade internationally. So cryptos will be for the excluded ones.

That said, I will browse your links. Thanks for them.

They print the money with no gold to back it up. That's the problem. 170+ trillion in debt with 1.3 trillion in circulation and only 800 billion in the banks....they still give out FRB loans every day. Money that doesn't exist until you sign the loan papers and then poof...by the click of a key new money is created, not backed up by gold.

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 03:41:15 AM
 #14

Interesting thread. Watching

In summary, the Intel Management Engine and its applications are a backdoor with total access to and control over the rest of the PC. The ME is a threat to freedom, security, and privacy, and the libreboot project strongly recommends avoiding it entirely. Since recent versions of it can’t be removed, this means avoiding all recent generations of Intel hardware. details https://libreboot.org/faq.html#intelme --- https://tehnoetic.com/laptops --- https://store.vikings.net/x200-ryf-certfied
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November 10, 2014, 03:42:06 AM
Last edit: November 10, 2014, 05:29:59 AM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #15

They print the money with no gold to back it up. That's the problem. 170+ trillion in debt with 1.3 trillion in circulation and only 800 billion in the banks....they still give out FRB loans every day. Money that doesn't exist until you sign the loan papers and then poof...by the click of a key new money is created, not backed up by gold.

yes, BUT, next reserve currency probably will be in Asia, renmimbi, ruble or something else (e.g. IMF SDR). Asia has the oil and now, also the gold, and Asia, either Russia and/or China, would be happy to get paid in gold for their oil by backing their currencies in gold as reserve currency. This will force the rest of the world to also back their (government) currencies in gold to pay for Asian oil and resources. And this will force governments decoupling their currency from people's currencies. And people's currency will be debased over time. Who is going to be a crypto entrepreneur instead of working for government, and get paid in a hard currency, on these conditions? Do not you see the threat?

The owning of the resources, i.e. oil (we are still a oil based society), defines who has the power. (PETRO dollar)
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November 10, 2014, 03:51:54 AM
 #16

^ I understand your point. I do see you putting good thought to this. I do see the threats, but I think Bitcoin will co-exist with things. Edit: for a certain period of time.

This reminds me of that paper going around awhile back. I'll post the link.

http://bitcoinunion.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/bitcoin-swift-and-the-brics/

This is a VERY interesting Paper.

It indicates that 250 million dollars could take bitcoin to a new level. It could be used by a coalition of countries as a payment system that would combat the US's ability to wage economic war on the world. It could be accomplished through the "SWIFT" Telecommunications Network. The author is calmly pointing out that this could effectively be done in an instant. The paper finishes by suggesting that even a few whales could make it happen.

I'm using my intuition, but I don't think this should be taken as lightly as it was written. They have explained something about global finance I have been searching for since knowing about game theory economics and Bitcoin.  

It's not just some kid who wrote this...this is a very intelligent game theoretical solution for a serious economic situation.

It is a brag almost, if its correct. The author seems to KNOW its correct.

In my opinion, the author is calmly suggesting, after first doing the math (and including 30 trillion I could have never realize existed), that a giant shift in the economics of the world could be achieved over night with a VERY insignificant amount of money. It could happen in one single blow. A giant amount of power could be taken away from those that are now in control the global economy.

They didn't ask if its correct, they said:  

Quote

"So I wonder who will be first to move".

This person is seeing and describing a war that most people cannot fathom exists, and just spelled out creation of the "atom bomb" that could put a stop to it.

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 04:14:16 AM
Last edit: November 10, 2014, 05:32:15 AM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #17

It indicates that 250 million dollars could take bitcoin to a new level. It could be used by a coalition of countries as a payment system that would combat the US's ability to wage economic war on the world. It could be accomplished through the "SWIFT" Telecommunications Network. The author is calmly pointing out that this could effectively be done in an instant. The paper finishes by suggesting that even a few whales could make it happen.

I agree that in the event of a collapse, bitcoin has a chance, no question.... supposing that the collapse does not impact on bitcoin infrastructure (internet remains up)... But, this is a different discussion, I think.

Honestly I do not expect any collapse. I think central banks have already learnt to buy assets and extend status quo for 30 years more. Japan already has been 25 years kicking the can.

Even I also doubt of direct confrontation West-East. Despite they have sanctioned each other and the like, G-20 is going to present to the world global measures in 2 weeks, about building global infrastructures (printing 45tn$ in 5 years and Asia is involved), if you have a look at main US Treasury holders, they do not even shrink but they are holding more dollars instead. I bet more for a global dictatorship or maybe 2 dictatorships with different flavour. And, for example, in the event of a collapse, if the currency gets totally debased, who is going to maintain the nukes? Obviously governments will jump into a global fascism. And this is the scenario where I see cryptos evolving to become the currency of the poor people.

I agree we have several scenarios here. I am more in the no collapse scenario. And, in this global fascism, I do not see the cryptos as hard money.
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November 10, 2014, 04:20:21 AM
 #18

My 3 year old kid understands cryptocurrencies better.
Don't read this thread..
You have to research and see all the things the Bitcoin blockchain will enable.

I am an IT guy for 15 years, I can figure out what things can be done and I am aware of some of them, but I cannot figure out who will want to do them, when you can work for companies that never get bankrupted and get paid in a gold backed currency. No entrepreneur can compete with these companies, close to governments, whom own the resources, never get bankrupted and trade internationally. So you will have a society with patronage networks and cryptos will be for the excluded ones, the low level class. This is what I see.

That said, I will browse your links. Thanks for them.
You seem like an old IT guy. I doubt anything you've said and I see this only as a potential FUD thread.

"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"
😼 Bitcoin Core (onion)
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November 10, 2014, 04:24:05 AM
 #19

My 3 year old kid understands cryptocurrencies better.
Don't read this thread..
You seem like an old IT guy. I doubt anything you've said and I see this only as a potential FUD thread.

My academics is an industrial engineer despite I worked 15 years as IT dev and arch in finance. However, I realise you do not understand the context of cryptocurrencies.
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November 10, 2014, 04:25:19 AM
 #20

@ op
I do agree, my personal view for the near future (5 years) is Bitcoin will be the payment system for services provided on the blockchain(ie...smart contracts, western union bill pay, etc...) and an internet payment option while also running co-existent like visa does to cash now. Bitcoin is still young......Thanks for your thread, please read shelling out and watch that video, it really worth it.

UPDATE: This is a real important read also:

http://szabo.best.vwh.net/ttps.html 

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 04:27:29 AM
 #21

your username seems more fake (ponzinomics)
cryptocurrency is future
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November 10, 2014, 04:35:22 AM
 #22

Thank you for your comments. What I wanted to state is, despite I love the idea, I am not that sure that is going to be the right context to carried it out in the medium term, and that the future of cryptos depends, no just on themselves, but ALSO on what "we will be allowed to do" or "what context we find".

I will revisit the links again with more time. And obviously I miss more debate on the context of cryptos and where they fit regarding the rest of the world.
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November 10, 2014, 04:50:42 AM
Last edit: November 10, 2014, 05:06:35 AM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #23

your username seems more fake (ponzinomics)
cryptocurrency is future

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

I am not saying stop doing bitcoin, I am saying, eih, heads up, be careful about the world around just in case we are being puppets. Maybe at some point we should be revolting in order to have a bitcoin society. (as certain conditions are needed).
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November 10, 2014, 04:51:41 AM
 #24

This is posted by just registered account for discrediting Bitcoin, despise you.  Angry
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November 10, 2014, 04:57:52 AM
Last edit: November 10, 2014, 05:33:21 AM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #25

This is posted by just registered account for discrediting Bitcoin, despise you.  Angry

yes, just registered and out of crypto world. But where else is this debate? You all take for granted that bitcoin will be the only currency and everything else will disappear.  Huh

I did not say cryptos are bad (I advocate the idea), I said that I have many concerns about current market and current context. Anb this is why I am not yet involved.
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November 10, 2014, 05:33:37 AM
 #26

My academics is an industrial engineer despite I worked 15 years as IT dev and arch in finance. However, I realise you do not understand the context of cryptocurrencies.
Obviously I'm the one who does not understand the context of them, while you're the one named 'ponzinomics'. Yeah keep up with the paranoia. The market is a real scary thing.  Roll Eyes

"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"
😼 Bitcoin Core (onion)
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November 10, 2014, 05:35:57 AM
 #27

Obviously I'm the one who does not understand the context of them, while you're the one named 'ponzinomics'. Yeah keep up with the paranoia. The market is a real scary thing.  Roll Eyes

Hey man, is not so difficult to understand that is a sarcasm for ponzi (scheme) - economics which is what we have in the mainstream today.
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November 10, 2014, 05:40:11 AM
 #28

Its satoshi first of all and second u wont understand because its like a chess game and bitcoin is 4 steps ahead of u... U need to step back and see trends of decisions by smart ppl
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November 10, 2014, 05:51:21 AM
 #29

Either you are a skeptical person, or you got burned from the business.
Back when I was in it only for profit, I've gained quite a sum of money and have been passively involved ever since.
Bitcoin is at least fun to play with.  Cheesy

"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"
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November 10, 2014, 05:55:04 AM
Last edit: November 10, 2014, 06:28:19 AM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #30

Its satoshi first of all and second u wont understand because its like a chess game and bitcoin is 4 steps ahead of u... U need to step back and see trends of decisions by smart ppl

ok, now the arguments please. Other than faith.

Mine are: Asia can create a gold backed reserve currency forcing world governments to do the same, decoupling people's currencies from government's currency. Everybody will want to work for government to get paid in hard currency and cryptos will be the currency of poor people. As long as governments, gold and oil do not disappear, and you do not revolve, cryptos will be the currency of poor people.

Where are your arguments please?

I really miss critical thinking. Austrian economics, the foundation of cryptos, is based on rationalism. Are not there any Austrians involved in bitcoin? I am not skeptical, I think critically. Anything wrong with that? or is better to be a sheep?

Where is the battle of ideas in the crypto world beyond pure implementation? Why they are not showing it to you?
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November 10, 2014, 06:23:18 AM
 #31

^ Understand Bitcoin is a Commodity, like gold and oil. It's also a "finite commodity" and we know exactly how much there will be and when it will all be mined. Bitcoin is a Scarce Object rarer than gold or diamonds.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070618142414/http://szabo.best.vwh.net/scarce.html

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 06:44:35 AM
Last edit: November 10, 2014, 08:14:58 AM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #32

^ Understand Bitcoin is a Commodity, like gold and oil. It's also a "finite commodity" and we know exactly how much there will be and when it will all be mined. Bitcoin is a Scarce Object rarer than gold or diamonds.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070618142414/http://szabo.best.vwh.net/scarce.html


I aware of it...

Suppose now that you have governments trading with a gold backed currency. And government companies trading internationally with the same currencies. And a whole set of government patronage networks of friend companies, influences and privileged connections trading with the same gold backed currency.

And, on the other hand, you have separated individuals in the open market, trading in cryptocurrencies and bitcoin.

If you want to sell your flat, who would you sell a flat to? Which of both sub-systems has more purchasing power? Who will own the law and the resources? What would dream any guy going to university working for, the bitcoin market or the government-network?

I am not defending any specific position (despite I have one) because I miss data, we do not have enough data to forecast the future. What I state is that, this debate is unexistant. This battle of ideas was existing 60 years ago, but today, at the implementation stage, the battle of ideas is missing. Have we become dumber? Huh

you are working in an austrian idea and thinking as keynesians. Why are not crypto companies evangelizing on this?  Huh (because they are funded by keynesian money)
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November 10, 2014, 07:04:26 AM
 #33

“Keynesian” economists, have sold to the public a “quasi-doctrine” which teaches, in effect, that “less is more” or that (in other words) “bad money is better than good money”

Please read the "shelling out" paper.....

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 08:37:50 AM
 #34

OP only need to answer one simple question: In current system, WHO get the OWNERSHIP of newly created money?

If you understand the importance of this question, all the rest will be sorted out

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November 10, 2014, 09:24:29 AM
Last edit: November 10, 2014, 09:42:34 AM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #35

“Keynesian” economists, have sold to the public a “quasi-doctrine” which teaches, in effect, that “less is more” or that (in other words) “bad money is better than good money”

Please read the "shelling out" paper.....

yes, for keynesians, credit = growth (= debt)

the bigger the debts of the people, the more the country ... "growths"

obviously keynesianism is a scam, but nobody speaks about it, just, "we need growth" = more debt slaves

but i am not sure that cryptocurrencies can face, by themselves, a future government gold backed reserve currency.... unless some other conditions are met, e.g. gold backed cryptocurrencies, no government money, gold government money vs gold people's money+criptocurrencies....

Tomorrow I will read the papers. But, really, you do not need to understand the details of bitcoin (been following about 2 years already but not in detail) to understand how it can fit. If fact, they are a bit different areas and no one is opening the old coexisting monetary systems (and more) debate. I was expecting this from crypto providers but..... they do not seems to be interested.  Cry

And, what happens with Russia, USA, China, EU, the gold, the oil, the gas...... matters a lot for future of cryptos. They are not standalone.
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November 10, 2014, 09:37:12 AM
 #36

read trilema.com Grin

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November 10, 2014, 09:38:53 AM
 #37

read trilema.com Grin

i read road to serfdom 10 years ago for the first time
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November 10, 2014, 03:00:15 PM
 #38

I think it's 'fake' in retrospect....but you can't say it's fake in real world impact or economic terms (moreso for individuals like us vs. businesses for now at least).

$ADK ~ watch & learn...
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November 10, 2014, 03:48:22 PM
 #39

What's the point of making another gold-backed currency, after all the major countries stopped having that?

https://forum.bitcoin.com/
New censorship-free forum by Roger Ver. Try it out.
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November 10, 2014, 04:04:44 PM
 #40

What's the point of making another gold-backed currency, after all the major countries stopped having that?

Backing currencies with physical things isn't the way to go in this day and age. I think btc is a perfect example of the future of currency though.
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November 10, 2014, 04:58:28 PM
Last edit: November 10, 2014, 05:31:49 PM by jdbtracker
 #41

I love this discussion, I'll definitely be watching it.

But you must understand that we are trying to find the true form of money, abstracting the idea from any pre-conceptions and adapting it to the situations that it may encounter.  All the exploration we are doing now, is to scientifically analyze the flow of money and understand it in the context of a region or society.

We can create phenomenal things when the limits are removed. Where are the Cryptocurrency Gate keepers, to dictate how our money is used? With traditional money it is the Banks, Law Enforcement, Governments, Businesses that dictate how that money will flow; Bitcoin takes a few of them out of the equation. It removed borders, Economic Cartels and any top down institution from dictating it's development... they must come to us now, the people, they can no longer dictate the terms, we now have a voice that they must hear. This dialogue about money is about equilibrium, we will not be treated as slaves of their economic systems.
This is a Democracy and we should be acting like it, get that dictatorship mentality out of your heads. It is sad that our Governance Leadership has forced us to do this.

The technology gives all the economic instruments used by traditional financial institutions to the people for them to remix and explore, I hope this trend continues. We as a people have our own interests to follow our own preoccupations to worry about, do you think the people would intentionally choose scammers and charlatans as the foundation of our common wealth? No, we will weed them out and find the solution that is The best for everyone.

Bitcoin is the beginning of Smart Contracts, Smart Property, The end of Theft, of misappropriation of funds, the beginning of barter systems, Hyper exchangeable Time Shares, Economic equilibrium across the planet and price finding solutions with dynamic solutions Globally.

... But we must still discuss our options, we must understand them and so we must research and collectively view any and all options critically. Please continue discussing, we will analyze scientifically all solutions and let the people decide which is best for them.

The Bizantine Generals problem has been solved up to 51% and there are solutions that can take it up to 99% using P2P Technology... we have solved the problem of trust. The Blockchain is censor proof, difficult to tamper it is the beginning of self-governance by the people, that is Bitcoins true innovation. The Blockchain can hold all your identifying information for everyone, all your credentials, all your contracts, and it can automate them using smart contracts, this is about a lot more than money... it is about self determination by the masses. We have eliminated the middle man.

Direct Democracy my friends.

Their network is bigger and more established so it's worth is much higher than all crypto-currencies combined, but we are getting bigger, more complex and modifying the system faster than they can fix theirs; they can play their games, but they must still Make us use their system, we freely choose our future.


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November 10, 2014, 08:08:33 PM
 #42

read trilema.com Grin

100% you know what's up Grin

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 08:43:38 PM
Last edit: November 10, 2014, 09:09:51 PM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #43

All the exploration we are doing now, is to scientifically analyze the flow of money and understand it in the context of a region or society

.... which means as a Keynesian, is not it?

Is there not any rational debate about the target environment to introduce in the market a rational idea? I love the proposals of cryptos but, the method how it is being put it forward, shows that it is not an actual market. Which raises me concerns about its actual purposes (=making a better society vs balancing investment portfolios with a new mysterious asset=fake).

Where is the Hayek-Keynes debate? Who is trying to analyse what kind of society will cryptos fit in? What other currencies will have the crypto to coexist? What will be the role of governments? What types of democracy and how can they fit with reality? Who does know here what praxeology is? Where is the debate of ideas? What things would we need from governments to have a crypto society? What would be their role? Who is exposing the big picture? What is the mission and vision of crypto companies (unknown)? Why are Russia and China buying gold? How does IMF SDR fit here? Nothing of that. Just empirical progress, keep going... as far as you can.... as a keynesian or as a sheep. And we will see what we find. When actors do not plan rationally to balance their risks means that it is not an actual market.

My criticism is as a libertarian Austrian advocate.
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November 10, 2014, 09:08:16 PM
Last edit: November 11, 2014, 03:48:50 AM by Billbags
 #44

^ @ op

Bitcoin contains the solution to the Triffin dilemma.

The Bitcoin system can curtail the ability of central banks to make monetary policy.

First you have to think in terms of what it means to “print” a money based on an actual non biased aggregate price index. In other words what goods and commodities are ACTUALLY worth!

How can this be achieved? By taking the money printing abilities away from the governments that are fixing the markets with, among other tactics, instability and regulation.  What is needed is a single currency in this world that has a stable money supply so you can create a standard of measurement to valuate all currencies:

"Our view is that if it is viewed scientifically and rationally (which is psychologically difficult!) that money should have a the function of a standard of measurement…"

No government has ever been able to achieve this in any significant manner because the economics of war ensues (notice many great wars of the past and present involve “money printers” (“Western”) vs those that denounce processes of usury (Islamic)).

Creating a money system via computers is not a new idea as the webpage from bitcoin’s wiki on its money supply points to a video with Milton Friedman describing such a system from his writings. In fact the decentralized scheme is a very Austrian ideology.

Now we get to Asymptotically Ideal Money which is the means with which we achieve the ends. Friedman and Hayek were both known for the introduction of “partway plans” to move from the current “sick” system to a more favorable one, knowing that simply switching over would be an impossible shock for the peoples to handle. How far then is a deflationary money supply from a school voucher system to facilitate privatization and truly free markets.

"The currencies being compared, like now the euro, the dollar, the yen, the pound, the swiss franc, the swedish kronor, etc. can be viewed with critical eyes by their users and by those who maybe have the option of whether or not  or how to use one of them.  This can lead to pressure for good quality and consequently for a lessened rate of inflationary deprecation in value."

And so there arises a global asymptotic slide towards a market in which the prices are set at their true value. Their true value being the free market prices as described by Adam Smith. It’s true that the infrastructure for citizens to have the option to put pressure on their national fiat still needs to be built, but it’s clear bitcoin has created the economic incentive (and educational tool) needed to create that means.

Does the Money Supply Even Matter?

Satoshi chose the largest possible natural implementation for bitcoin’s printing schedule.  How much would this have changed if the total release was 15 million coins or 10 million coins rather than 21 million? Especially considering these coins are divisible to the eighth decimal place.  Should we think of gold in the amount of atoms we have, and does the value change if we can divide these atoms to spend them?  Scarcity might not actually be leading factor here so much as the psychological belief in it.  It seems in regards to a “useful” currency any finite amount over “just enough” would be sufficient.

Bitcoin is the future Economy:

It comes later than now when the world understands they can “choose” what kind of global economy they want to participate in.

After comparing such practices to Bolshevik communism announces:

"…this parallel makes it seem not implausible that a process of political evolution might lead to the expectation on the part of citizens in the “great democracies” that they should be better situated to be able to understand whatever will be the monetary policies which, indeed, are typically of great importance to citizens who may have alternative option for where to place their “savings”."

Is there another “process of political evolution” going on?

Since I discovered Bitcoin I believe we are living it.


Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 09:33:53 PM
 #45

The Bitcoin system can curtail the ability of central banks to make monetary policy.

You do not need bitcoin for it. You can do it with gold (as Switzerland will be approaching in 3 weeks). And still is not done. Lot of people prefer governments managing their lifes.

Well, my objective was not triggering a mini-debate on "the domain" (as it would take lots of threads) but questioning why it does not exist. You are working for an idea (which I agree), how do you know that you are not being a puppet when actors in the industry do not clearly raise the debate? If you are successful with your plans, but the rest of the society does not change, you will be the happy one (because you succeed)...... and the poor one in the society.
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November 10, 2014, 09:39:49 PM
 #46

Just don't put all your eggs in one basket...Thanks for the thread.

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 09:46:16 PM
 #47

Just don't put all your eggs in one basket...Thanks for the thread.

yes, you can say on that way, or you can also watch what others do as well.

For example, in 5 days, G-20 will be releasing to the world their plans for a new society (financial) architecture in Brisbane, Australia. Pay attention and try to think how cryptos fit on it, if they do. They have their own plans and they have much more power. (You will be able to download the documents. They are specs, to make up a framework, as the technical ones).

Thanks for the thread as well.
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November 10, 2014, 09:51:28 PM
Last edit: November 10, 2014, 10:18:33 PM by jdbtracker
 #48

Well said.

What are we Truly measuring with money? Gross Domestic Product, Our capacity and efficiency for work? The potential futures of said work? Maybe we got it all wrong, maybe we should be measuring Total Energy in circulation, Potential capacity to generate energy and efficiency of transmission. Bitcoin measures it, how willing are people to use energy to generate exchangeable energy tokens? How efficient are said tokens able to be produced?

and all energy intensive Cryptocurrencies combined measure it's aggregate over a range of measurements within the Energy Chain, if you can get people interested in the completion of an activity using energy, you are measuring it's energy allocation within the available energy supply.

Different Cryptocurrencies will measure different things, Bitcoin at this point measures the entire Energy Grid.

Curecoin, Gridcoin, Primecoin and others represent the energy allocated to scientific discovery.

Others like LItecoin, Peercoin and others represent alternative systems of measurement.

Zerocoin, Franko's, Freicoin, Dogecoin measure social structures whether it is a need for economic privacy, social movement or monetary policy.

Solarcoin, Devcoin, Namecoin represent energy used towards their respective products and services.


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November 10, 2014, 09:55:45 PM
Last edit: November 10, 2014, 10:08:39 PM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #49

Well said.

What are we Truly measuring with money? Gross Domestic Product, Our capacity and efficiency for work? The potential futures of said work? Maybe we got it all wrong, maybe we should be measuring Total Energy in circulation, Potential capacity to generate energy and efficiency of transmission. Bitcoin measures it, how willing are people to use energy to generate exchangeable energy tokens? How efficient are said tokens able to be produced?

This was addressed by Austrian School. You can NOT do calculation from a planned centralized party (government). This is socialism. Is just the Hayek's fatal conceit. You can only do economic calculation (as an opinion) from market and get paid for you accuracy (modeling the domain and running stats). Then you have a different kind of companies and the whole market roles change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem

This kind of debates should be up. Otherwise is trying to fit an Austrian tool in a Keynesian world. Thanks for the perfect example.
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November 10, 2014, 10:05:55 PM
 #50

Let me guess...your about to release the EconomicPlanningCoin...I just caught on Wink

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 10:11:08 PM
 #51

Super whiz kid Vitalik Buterin points out there is a:

"…lower threshold that the total satoshi count manages to fall just below: the largest possible integer that can be exactly represented in floating point format"
Bullshit detector tripped!

Floating point since forever had two flavors: binary and decimal. The most well known standards are: IEEE 754-1985, IEEE 854-1987 & IEEE 754-2008. The only remaining question is which flavor of bullshit is being served here:

1) undereducated/incompetent
2) intentional deception/preliminary setup for future fraud
3) two-for-the-price-of-one mixture of the above

Standard links for those who are not afraid of the truth and not afraid to admit that they may have slept through some lecture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_floating_point
http://speleotrove.com/decimal/
 

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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November 10, 2014, 10:19:26 PM
Last edit: November 10, 2014, 10:55:31 PM by Billbags
 #52

^ Just a quote, I'll look it up and edit a correction. Thanks for keeping me honest Wink

UPDATE: I can't correct someone else's quote(or assume what they ment something different) so please research this number for yourself, I will use a different example next time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_floating_point
http://speleotrove.com/decimal/

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Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 10:20:37 PM
 #53

Let me guess...your about to release the EconomicPlanningCoin...I just caught on Wink

No really. I have got an ethical conflict in my career which, being Austrian, forced me to quit. I worked in a similar technology to bitcoin, which was XBRL, in Europe. When I understood the overall totalitarian plans, I moved out of the market. In Ayn Rand's words: "I can not work for something which is trying to destroy me". So, I was expecting to find on the cryptos the "open world point of view" but, what I see is the same Keynesianism with a different tool.  Cry
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November 10, 2014, 10:25:37 PM
 #54

Let me guess...your about to release the EconomicPlanningCoin...I just caught on Wink

No really. I have got an ethical conflict in my career which, being Austrian, forced me to quit. I worked in a similar technology to bitcoin, which was XBRL, in Europe. When I understood the overall totalitarian plans and moved out of the market. In Ayn Rand words: I can not work for something which is trying to destroy me. So, I was expecting to find on the cryptos the open world point of view but, what I see is the same Keynesianism with a different tool.  Cry

I said earlier I do see your points on all this. It's a good topic. We can't be closed minded about the world we live in.

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 10:39:14 PM
Last edit: November 10, 2014, 10:49:25 PM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #55

exactly. This is why I tried setting this trying to share understanding about what is going on from the big picture

http://www.inprogressweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Boiling_Frogs_Pic_-_resized.jpeg
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November 11, 2014, 12:27:26 AM
Last edit: November 11, 2014, 12:50:43 AM by 2112
 #56

UPDATE: I can't correct someone else's quote(or assume what they ment something different) so please research this number for yourself, I will use a different example next time:
I can't blame you for quoting accurately. So the remaining question is: what to do when fact-checking an authority shows him to be a bullshit artist?

Edit: Let me try to translate Vitelik's bulshiteese into more straightforward English:

Quote from: me in somebody's else voice
I have zero experience in working with actual financial software. I even have no amateur's interest in learning how it works. I'm writing a demagoguery targeted at the lowest common denominator of code monkey: Javascript or PHP programmer for the web services.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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November 11, 2014, 02:18:45 PM
 #57

One example of tech that is useful which wasnt possible is prediction markets aswell as other decentralized markets which cant be censored or shutdown.. it is a new world and there is no way for those "in power" to stop it. The market is bigger than the biggest whale. It will act irrational longer than u will remain solvent. Thus I expect these plans to be washed with the real hidden agenda.. if they dont prepare for
blockchain tech today these countries will be obsolete.

Btw china was fake they didnt ban.. never were going to. They bought cheap coins knowing whats coming.
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November 11, 2014, 02:23:05 PM
Last edit: November 11, 2014, 02:59:41 PM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #58

it is a new world and there is no way for those "in power" to stop it.

oh, yes, there is way http://project.ukrinform.ua/news/virtual_currency_bitcoin_banned_in_ukraine__73534/

but even in the case that there would not be way, is very possible for them to make it the option of the poor people and take the big resources and purchasing power for them with other coexisting currencies backed by governments, laws, oil, gas, gold...

i think cryptos do not just need to grow themselves but also get rid of the central planned enemy, maybe by force. However, I see an intermediate way: fight for gold backed national currencies. This is the only way to keep purchasing power of cryptos, IMHO

In 1944, in the Bretton Woods Accords, Americans (USA) did a very good thing for liberty. They backed their national currency in gold, the same that the reserve currency. Unfortunately this setup was broken by Nixon 27 years after. You cannot allow governments decoupling their currency from people's currency since you would be back to a neo-feudalism.
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November 11, 2014, 05:26:22 PM
 #59

it is a new world and there is no way for those "in power" to stop it.

oh, yes, there is way http://project.ukrinform.ua/news/virtual_currency_bitcoin_banned_in_ukraine__73534/

but even in the case that there would not be way, is very possible for them to make it the option of the poor people and take the big resources and purchasing power for them with other coexisting currencies backed by governments, laws, oil, gas, gold...

i think cryptos do not just need to grow themselves but also get rid of the central planned enemy, maybe by force. However, I see an intermediate way: fight for gold backed national currencies. This is the only way to keep purchasing power of cryptos, IMHO

In 1944, in the Bretton Woods Accords, Americans (USA) did a very good thing for liberty. They backed their national currency in gold, the same that the reserve currency. Unfortunately this setup was broken by Nixon 27 years after. You cannot allow governments decoupling their currency from people's currency since you would be back to a neo-feudalism.
No they cannot stop the tech.. u didnt get it. Sure u can choose what tokens u want ppl to pay taxes off with but u cant stop all forms of exchange between the tokens.
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November 11, 2014, 05:50:41 PM
 #60

No they cannot stop the tech.. u didnt get it. Sure u can choose what tokens u want ppl to pay taxes off with but u cant stop all forms of exchange between the tokens.

yes, yes, I agree, they cannot stop the tech, but we cannot stop the politics by waiting it just happens

actually i am afraid they are very happy that we do tech
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November 11, 2014, 06:11:11 PM
 #61

No they cannot stop the tech.. u didnt get it. Sure u can choose what tokens u want ppl to pay taxes off with but u cant stop all forms of exchange between the tokens.

yes, yes, I agree, they cannot stop the tech, but we cannot stop the politics by waiting it just happens

actually i am afraid they are very happy that we do tech

Who knows if the currency will work.. maybe China is secretly stashing so one day they will have i as a backup plan that if US doesn't man up and pay bonds and/or gold that is owed to China then they will turn around make a gold backed or bitcoin backed currency that other nations will have no choice but to accept by association. We don't know what these guys are thinking... and whatever you seem to think is usually wrong because they will never go public with that info.

The tech will be disruptive enough... i.e.: a silkroad that cannot be closed for example.. or a truth prediction market that finds answers better than seeking professionals.. disrupting all sorts of industries and professionals that took it easy for way too long. A exchange marketplace which takes over e-commerce on the internet (bitshares) without having to pay enormous currency exchange and other fees to the monopoly credit card companies. It's definitely going to challenge some of the big players who I bet thought there would never be any challengers.

Since bitcoin can't actually be shutdown it will strengthen the resolve of investors of bitcoin each time a disruption takes place. Since there are only 21 million coins and billions of people bitcoin doesn't have to be "accepted" by thepowers to be to be worth alot more than it is today.
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November 11, 2014, 06:32:45 PM
 #62

I have read this entire thread (sans links) and I'm happy to report that, for myself, ignorance remains blissful.

Feed the poor. Eat the rich. (watch how fast man will divest himself of his fiat when he see's the
masses coming forward with forks and knives)

May all hatred cease and let there be peace!
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November 11, 2014, 06:44:57 PM
Last edit: November 11, 2014, 07:27:51 PM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #63

The tech will be disruptive enough...

I provide you a rationale about why I think we need more that succeeding with technology to make a technologically driven society.

I think you are in wrong paradigm. You are assuming that the dispute is between the, say, "elites" and the citizens. This is in my opinion a misunderstanding. Society is composed by 2 kind of people: rational people and emotional people. There are issues in the brain evolution that makes so. Rational people use to be individualist and emotional people use to be collectivist. Collectivist people always will advocate for government protection.

So the actual paradigm is not elites vs citizens but individualism vs collectivism. The fact is, if you look around in any society the number of collectivists is always higher than the number of individualists. Women are collectivists and counts half of population, gays, as emotional people, use to be also collectivists and are 10% of population. Lots of men are also collectivists. So, at the final, individualist people is a minority.

What this means? This means that, (in democracy) you always will have government.

The point is, how can individualist people protect themselves from the threat of collectivist people through the government? With the monetary architecture: by having a national currency being equal to the governments currency or having a national currency coupled to gold. In the USA, you enjoyed gold standard from 1944 to 1971 and was the period of higher progress on (recent?) history.

This chart represents the velocity of money in the USA:

http://acrossthestreetnet.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/velocity.png?w=604&h=362

Look how the velocity grown from 1944 to about 1980, a few years after quitting gold standard (1971) by inertia. After 1980, just a couple of more bubbles (2000 and 2008) and finally the 2008 collapse at level of Great Recession. I think velocity of money is a good representation of real economy (no financial economy).

So, in my opinion, individualist people needs a national currency backed on gold, to get protected against governments, representing the collectivist people, and under this umbrella, THEN you will have the crypto-driven society. Otherwise governments will be able to use their power to devaluate purchasing power of any other currency (you can read Hayek for it, I think chapter 9. 'Security and Freedom' of 'Road to Serfdom' would give you an idea).

Open to debate.
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November 11, 2014, 07:05:03 PM
 #64

I read somewhere that ALL fiat becomes worthless in time. Who is going to change that constant?
P2P is high tech barter...not necessarily a bad thing. IMO

Just remember to check your poke before you let go of your crypto/fiat/chickens. Time and crime
have no conscience. They both corrupt that which is corruptible. Each to their own nature.  
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November 11, 2014, 07:13:33 PM
 #65

I read somewhere that ALL fiat becomes worthless in time. Who is going to change that constant?

There are many chances that the future governments, after dollar, do not use a fiat currency. Actually, there are many chances of having a gold backed reserve currency. You cannot buy oil to another nation with a fiat currency. What we do not know yet is "its color" (owner) and the transition process.
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November 11, 2014, 07:42:13 PM
 #66

I read somewhere that ALL fiat becomes worthless in time. Who is going to change that constant?

There are many chances that the future governments, after dollar, do not use a fiat currency. Actually, there are many chances of having a gold backed reserve currency. You cannot buy oil to another nation with a fiat currency. What we do not know yet is "its color" and the transition process.

In my blissful mind there is not enough gold and oil to fuel the future of mankind. The proof is in the mechanism of transition and power. War!

If there was money to be made in peace then humanity would have equilibrium of wealth. Save for those who would rise up against peace...for their own gain.

The greatest riches that humanity possess is intelligence. Eventually history will stop repeating itself and progress will be governed with
that evolved intelligence toward a more equal stake for all. Minimized by another constant; that some things are more equal than others. There will always be those who fate favors best when it comes to brains, talent or entertainment value. We all have to take time to find that which makes us think, smile and laugh.    

Again...IMHO
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November 11, 2014, 07:47:50 PM
 #67

In my blissful mind there is not enough gold and oil to fuel the future of mankind. The proof is in the mechanism of transition and power.

the amount of gold does not matter. However, obviously there is a peak oil and peak everything at some point and we are still an oil driven society..... so what will happen at this peak point? No idea. What I am sure is that, at the long term, majority collectivist will always expropriate all inventions to minority individualist and make them public UNLESS we block them with gold standard. Also IMHO.
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November 11, 2014, 08:30:15 PM
 #68

Thanks for your comments. I am afraid of seeing one thing as current society evolves. I am afraid of seeing a new world reserve currency raising anytime soon, maybe backed in gold. I see governments separating people's currencies from government's currency, and cryptocurrencies being the resource of the poor people, those that did not get a chance for a government paid job. So, to properly understand where cryptoworld fits, it is required to understand where the rest is moving to.

For example, are you aware that there are political initiatives which will allow big companies no getting bankrupted anymore? This will be presented in Brisbane in 2 weeks by G-20.....Where does cryptoworld fit here?

OP  - start listening to Lets Talk Bitcoin podcast.  You'll get some insight into the real world of Bitcoin, where people who arent pimply faced teenagers are actually out in the field, innovating and building the infrastructure.  If this was your main source of Bitcoin info, I wouldn't blame you for your skepticism.  Reddit bitcoin is a close second to the podcasts.

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Owner: "The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"
View it on the Blockchain | Genesis Block Newspaper Copies
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November 11, 2014, 08:47:14 PM
 #69

In my blissful mind there is not enough gold and oil to fuel the future of mankind. The proof is in the mechanism of transition and power.

the amount of gold does not matter. However, obviously there is a peak oil and peak everything at some point and we are still an oil driven society..... so what will happen at this peak point? No idea. What I am sure is that, at the long term, majority collectivist will always expropriate all inventions to minority individualist and make them public UNLESS we block them with gold standard. Also IMHO.

Time has proven/built peaks and valleys. Life is peaks and valleys. Nice of you to admit that you don't know where you're going. As do I. I will say farewell to you as you go on your thoughtful meanderings chasing facts and probabilities and gold. The world always has room for thinkers.

Not so much for stinkers. I will go amongst my peaks and valleys of this life. Seeking simple pleasures, remaining blissful of my ignorance. And that of those amongst me with the civility not to point out my failures. But to be enriched by them, help improve on them and I to look upon their failures with that same facility.

Bread is not always on the table. IMO it is better to have charity provide for such lean times. Rather than to seek profit out of misery for that way is but more misery. 

~peace out...in~
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November 11, 2014, 09:51:28 PM
 #70

Feeling like another annonymint thread with hidden agendas to me.. anyone else feel it?
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November 11, 2014, 09:55:17 PM
 #71

Feeling like another annonymint thread with hidden agendas to me.. anyone else feel it?

What hidden agendas are you suspecting here? I guess most people shunning Bitcoin just try to rationalize to themselves how staying out of the game is the right decision. They're afraid to put money in and hope for the ship to go down, so they wouldn't have made a profit if Bitcoin went up big time!

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November 11, 2014, 09:57:07 PM
 #72

The tech will be disruptive enough...

I provide you a rationale about why I think we need more that succeeding with technology to make a technologically driven society.

I think you are in wrong paradigm. You are assuming that the dispute is between the, say, "elites" and the citizens. This is in my opinion a misunderstanding. Society is composed by 2 kind of people: rational people and emotional people. There are issues in the brain evolution that makes so. Rational people use to be individualist and emotional people use to be collectivist. Collectivist people always will advocate for government protection.

So the actual paradigm is not elites vs citizens but individualism vs collectivism. The fact is, if you look around in any society the number of collectivists is always higher than the number of individualists. Women are collectivists and counts half of population, gays, as emotional people, use to be also collectivists and are 10% of population. Lots of men are also collectivists. So, at the final, individualist people is a minority.

What this means? This means that, (in democracy) you always will have government.

The point is, how can individualist people protect themselves from the threat of collectivist people through the government? With the monetary architecture: by having a national currency being equal to the governments currency or having a national currency coupled to gold. In the USA, you enjoyed gold standard from 1944 to 1971 and was the period of higher progress on (recent?) history.

This chart represents the velocity of money in the USA:



Look how the velocity grown from 1944 to about 1980, a few years after quitting gold standard (1971) by inertia. After 1980, just a couple of more bubbles (2000 and 2008) and finally the 2008 collapse at level of Great Recession. I think velocity of money is a good representation of real economy (no financial economy).

So, in my opinion, individualist people needs a national currency backed on gold, to get protected against governments, representing the collectivist people, and under this umbrella, THEN you will have the crypto-driven society. Otherwise governments will be able to use their power to devaluate purchasing power of any other currency (you can read Hayek for it, I think chapter 9. 'Security and Freedom' of 'Road to Serfdom' would give you an idea).

Open to debate.
This is all bs.. velocity of money is the only key driver yes i agree but the way u jumped to conclusions no... gold standard went off cause velocity could not keep up effectively. Bitcoin and cryptos dont have that problem with cost of hw decreasing and network speeds increasing faster than the network affect.
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November 11, 2014, 10:15:18 PM
 #73

Women are collectivists and counts half of population, gays, as emotional people, use to be also collectivists and are 10% of population. Lots of men are also collectivists. So, at the final, individualist people is a minority.
Are you really putting some stereotypes into that argument? Making fake data. So, you can quantify something for the sake of your argument.

https://forum.bitcoin.com/
New censorship-free forum by Roger Ver. Try it out.
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November 12, 2014, 03:08:59 AM
Last edit: November 12, 2014, 03:37:38 AM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #74

This is getting interesting. Well, I have actually just scratched the surface.

Feeling like another annonymint thread with hidden agendas to me.. anyone else feel it?

you do not need hidden agendas when you have a (hidden) whole body of knowledge as arguments. I came to cryptos as a last opportunity to find a truth market, as I have verified myself that the other 99% is scam. I got disappointed about the no rational strategical arguments behind cryptos (in the functional domain). I have elaborated a rationale exposing why I think is a fake market and I wanted to know how you defend it. Who am I and what I am doing now I told from the first message. No point to repeat, I think. But, if you want hidden agendas, maybe you will find quite a few this weekend in Brisbane.

And, by the way, lets suppose now that I would have any hidden agenda (which I have not). Are you afraid of using rational arguments to defend any position? I think yours is a wrong concern, no matter what is my agenda. Happy to answer any other question.

This is all bs.. velocity of money is the only key driver yes i agree but the way u jumped to conclusions no... gold standard went off cause velocity could not keep up effectively. Bitcoin and cryptos dont have that problem with cost of hw decreasing and network speeds increasing faster than the network affect.

Gold standard was lost because Nixon wanted to fund Vietnam war. Same reason that the Federal Reserve was created in 1913, funding a war.

Regarding velocity was not in the core argument. Sorry if I mislead you, it just was a clarification. I agree that one of the beauties of cryptos is that they allow a flexible money supply. But this is again no my claim. I think is better if you re-read and come with another counterargument. I think you misunderstood.

Are you really putting some stereotypes into that argument? Making fake data. So, you can quantify something for the sake of your argument.

puf, I suppose you are a female. Well, the direct answer to your question is no. Regarding the fake data, I do not know if we need to discuss that, in current society, there are more emotional people than rational, and that emotional people is (generally) collectivist. No sure if it is issue for this thread. This is enough for my last point. If you want to discuss about sex battle maybe we should open another thread. For me is unclear to what point I should answer you.

sorry if I am not really extending my arguments because your replies does not address mines rationally, IMHO. If someone thinks I have not responded I will be happy in extending. I am afraid we have an emotions/reason debate here and it could take the whole space of the board (and probably would be beyond the board's topics). But again happy to extend.
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November 12, 2014, 03:35:53 AM
 #75

perhaps it is because  cryptocurrency market is not stable now, and lack of regulation.
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November 12, 2014, 03:38:29 AM
 #76

Everything just that we temporarily unable to use cryptocurrency to life
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November 12, 2014, 03:40:06 AM
Last edit: November 12, 2014, 04:30:19 AM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #77

perhaps it is because  cryptocurrency market is not stable now, and lack of regulation.

This would be solved by a functional analysis of the 'domain' demonstrating validity, is not it? Is there such a paper on the community? Furthermore, does current body of knowledge of economics provides such a foundational framework to build this analysis on top of it? To clarify, my "analysis" is carried out from the opposite school of economics

(By 'domain' I am referring to monetary architectures, not to enterprise service buses).

Off topic: if it does not, where is heading us Brisbane and the like?  Huh
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November 12, 2014, 03:48:43 AM
 #78

Its satoshi first of all and second u wont understand because its like a chess game and bitcoin is 4 steps ahead of u... U need to step back and see trends of decisions by smart ppl

ok, now the arguments please. Other than faith.

Mine are: Asia can create a gold backed reserve currency forcing world governments to do the same, decoupling people's currencies from government's currency. Everybody will want to work for government to get paid in hard currency and cryptos will be the currency of poor people. As long as governments, gold and oil do not disappear, and you do not revolve, cryptos will be the currency of poor people.

Where are your arguments please?


Bitcoin, as is, can only handle up to about 7 transactions per second. As a result, Bitcoin is more likely to become a reserve currency than a currency of "the people".

The reason is that there are many, many poor people, but few banks. If Bitcoin technology takes off within 5 years, poor people will be priced out of the market, while banks will not be.

I have documented how that may happen. Though, I have no formal proof such plans are actually underway.

James' OpenPGP public key fingerprint: EB14 9E5B F80C 1F2D 3EBE  0A2F B3DE 81FF 7B9D 5160
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November 12, 2014, 03:58:03 AM
 #79

Bitcoin, as is, can only handle up to about 7 transactions per second. As a result, Bitcoin is more likely to become a reserve currency than a currency of "the people".

7 transactions per second makes a currency eligible for reserve currency? USA just needed to win the WWII to impose dollar....
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November 12, 2014, 04:05:37 AM
 #80

This is getting interesting. Well, I have actually just scratched the surface.

Feeling like another annonymint thread with hidden agendas to me.. anyone else feel it?

you do not need hidden agendas when you have a (hidden) whole body of knowledge as arguments. I came to cryptos as a last opportunity to find a truth market, as I have verified myself that the other 99% is scam. I got disappointed about the no rational strategical arguments behind cryptos (in the functional domain). I have elaborated a rationale exposing why I think is a fake market and I wanted to know how you defend it. Who am I and what I am doing now I told from the first message. No point to repeat, I think. But, if you want hidden agendas, maybe you will find quite a few this weekend in Brisbane.

And, by the way, lets suppose now that I would have any hidden agenda (which I have not). Are you afraid of using rational arguments to defend any position? I think yours is a wrong concern, no matter what is my agenda. Happy to answer any other question.

This is all bs.. velocity of money is the only key driver yes i agree but the way u jumped to conclusions no... gold standard went off cause velocity could not keep up effectively. Bitcoin and cryptos dont have that problem with cost of hw decreasing and network speeds increasing faster than the network affect.

Gold standard was lost because Nixon wanted to fund Vietnam war. Same reason that the Federal Reserve was created in 1913, funding a war.

Regarding velocity was not in the core argument. Sorry if I mislead you, it just was a clarification. I agree that one of the beauties of cryptos is that they allow a flexible money supply. But this is again no my claim. I think is better if you re-read and come with another counterargument. I think you misunderstood.

Are you really putting some stereotypes into that argument? Making fake data. So, you can quantify something for the sake of your argument.

puf, I suppose you are a female. Well, the direct answer to your question is no. Regarding the fake data, I do not know if we need to discuss that, in current society, there are more emotional people than rational, and that emotional people is (generally) collectivist. No sure if it is issue for this thread. This is enough for my last point. If you want to discuss about sex battle maybe we should open another thread. For me is unclear to what point I should answer you.

sorry if I am not really extending my arguments because your replies does not address mines rationally, IMHO. If someone thinks I have not responded I will be happy in extending. I am afraid we have an emotions/reason debate here and it could take the whole space of the board (and probably would be beyond the board's topics). But again happy to extend.

Why did the US need to fund wars? Velocity of money (lack thereof) is the real reason why gold standard was abolished... not funding the war which was the indirect reason in 1971 to overturn the law... France demanded 191 million in gold but instead of running through the reserves they just left Bretton Woods instead. It was too deflationary (ala Japan's lost decade) and gov't couldn't issue any more debt to spur economy.. more people with static supply lead to a view that the economy wasn't growing or would slow without doing something about it.

I urge you to read between the lines... you're misunderstandings are leading to further assumptions that are probably affecting your political/philosophical views. Check out http://www.peakprosperity.com/crashcourse it shouldn't take too long.
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November 12, 2014, 04:06:50 AM
 #81

7 transactions a second is alot considering it can handle very large amounts

alt currencies will fill the roles of lower denominations to reflect the higher risk

can't see many people breaking a network to steal pennies being traded with the

risk of being caught, its the same reason why people don't manufacture their

own metal coins, though it would be a relatively easy scam to pull off.

Once you break a network it becomes relatively worthless aswell which makes

the scam even less attractive.

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November 12, 2014, 04:09:16 AM
 #82

7 transactions per second makes a currency eligible for reserve currency? USA just needed to win the WWII to impose dollar....

If the Banks succeed in taking over Bitcoin, they will have access to networks that can handle more than 1MB of data every 10 minutes*. With 100MB blocks, Bitcoin can handle up to 700 transactions per second (CPU might start to become the bottle-neck).

Bitcoin appears to be the first secure network application in the history of mankind. It does not have to be imposed by force: because it is far superior to what has come before.

*Note: My full node uses about 100GB of it's 300GB cap every month (works out to less than 1Mbps).

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November 12, 2014, 04:11:49 AM
 #83

Network speeds are increasing and cost of memory is decreasing fast enough to not have to worry about tx speeds or block sizes.
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November 12, 2014, 04:20:06 AM
Last edit: November 12, 2014, 04:42:25 AM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #84

Velocity of money (lack thereof) is the real reason why gold standard was abolished...

what is exactly the problem with velocity of money in 1971?
https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2F%2Facrossthestreetnet.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F08%2Fvelocity.png%3Fw%3D604%26h%3D362&t=546&c=Q2yWtX2Pv1qKlg

Sorry, no government/central bank makes any monetary decision on the basis of velocity of money.

not funding the war which was the indirect reason in 1971 to overturn the law...

a rise in military spending caused by the Vietnam War gradually worsened the overvaluation of the dollar.

End of Bretton Woods system
The system dissolved between 1968 and 1973. In August 1971, U.S. President Richard Nixon announced the "temporary" suspension of the dollar's convertibility into gold.

https://www.imf.org/external/about/histend.htm

HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh??
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November 12, 2014, 04:46:54 AM
 #85

Answer the first question first... and not sure where you got your pic from but m2 didnt look so good in the 70s..

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/images/2013/Apr/Velocity_Of_Money.gif

velocity is the output not input.. the end result is the velocity. It needs to rise to sustain the new supply. Its a ponzi scheme as soon as gold was given up.
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November 12, 2014, 04:53:41 AM
 #86

Answer the first question first... and not sure where you got your pic from but m2 didnt look so good in the 70s..

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/images/2013/Apr/Velocity_Of_Money.gif

velocity is the output not input.. the end result is the velocity. It needs to rise to sustain the new supply. Its a ponzi scheme as soon as gold was given up.

well, there are several velocities of money depending on the monetary aggregate that you use (mine was from MZM), link in previous page, but:
* still I do not see any problem in the chart
* no central bank makes any monetary policy decision on the basis on velocity of money

But, I think this debate of velocity is heading us nowhere anyway.
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November 12, 2014, 04:59:35 AM
 #87

Answer the first question first... and not sure where you got your pic from but m2 didnt look so good in the 70s..

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/images/2013/Apr/Velocity_Of_Money.gif

velocity is the output not input.. the end result is the velocity. It needs to rise to sustain the new supply. Its a ponzi scheme as soon as gold was given up.

well, there are several velocities of money depending on the monetary aggregate that you use (mine was from MZM), link in previous page, but:
* still I do not see any problem in the chart
* no central bank makes any monetary policy decision on the basis on velocity of money

But, I think this debate of velocity is heading us nowhere anyway.

M2V is the one that's usually more important.

Again you're not reading between the lines.. but that's fine. M2V tells us that there were problems that needed to be rectified and hard limits were being reached (kinda like the debt ceiling today and how they kept raising and now will just lift indefinetly. Again it is an OUTPUT it is the health indicator. You can't use it as input.

This is why I called this thread an anonymint thread because he did the same thing... made accustations and built a base off of information then jumped to conclusions (atleast 10% of population being collectivists because they are gay or whatever you wrote). Finally he would jump off to a profound conclusion based on this info like bitcoin is doomed to fail as is...
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November 12, 2014, 05:07:33 AM
 #88

This is why I called this thread an anonymint thread because he did the same thing... made accustations and built a base off of information then jumped to conclusions (atleast 10% of population being collectivists because they are gay or whatever you wrote). Finally he would jump off to a profound conclusion based on this info like bitcoin is doomed to fail as is...

Ok, thanks, I have gathered enough information from the industry

Regards
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November 12, 2014, 05:12:34 AM
 #89

This is why I called this thread an anonymint thread because he did the same thing... made accustations and built a base off of information then jumped to conclusions (atleast 10% of population being collectivists because they are gay or whatever you wrote). Finally he would jump off to a profound conclusion based on this info like bitcoin is doomed to fail as is...

Ok, thanks, I have gathered enough information from the industry

Regards

I would do like people said read the links, listen to the podcasts... the core devs know better... also I advice to read between the lines and think critically... bitcoin may never be a reserve currency.. its more of a commodity right now... maybe it will be... point is we don't know.. but saying its a fake market is a bit naive on you're part without qualifying it as such.

Read up on smart contracts, full turing scripts, prediction markets and otherthings that open up on the blockchain that we coudln't do before... then try to apply it to a future forward and even if your 10% right you should see that in general there is something there... not just a bunch of nerds pumping each other up as early adopters.
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November 12, 2014, 05:16:15 AM
 #90

Fiat is also fake then.

All is Mine!

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November 12, 2014, 07:29:57 AM
 #91

Are you really putting some stereotypes into that argument? Making fake data. So, you can quantify something for the sake of your argument.
puf, I suppose you are a female. Well, the direct answer to your question is no. Regarding the fake data, I do not know if we need to discuss that, in current society, there are more emotional people than rational, and that emotional people is (generally) collectivist. No sure if it is issue for this thread. This is enough for my last point. If you want to discuss about sex battle maybe we should open another thread. For me is unclear to what point I should answer you.
I am neither a female nor a homosexual, but that you assume that, just shows how you think. I am also a rationalist(I don't think, anybody who knows me, would describe me as emotional) and as a rationalist I don't just accept fake data. All your assumption (female=collectivists ; gay=emotional; emotional=collectivists) don't have any scientific backing, do they?
And yes, it is an issue for this thread, since you, the OP, throw it into this discussion and didn't provide any real data about it.

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November 12, 2014, 07:55:06 AM
Last edit: November 12, 2014, 05:09:36 PM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #92

I am neither a female nor a homosexual, but that you assume that, just shows how you think. I am also a rationalist(I don't think, anybody who knows me, would describe me as emotional) and as a rationalist I don't just accept fake data. All your assumption (female=collectivists ; gay=emotional; emotional=collectivists) don't have any scientific backing, do they?
And yes, it is an issue for this thread, since you, the OP, throw it into this discussion and didn't provide any real data about it.

Well, is interesting what you say, but I think you make some mistakes. Sorry, your nick confused me with a girl. First thing clarify I commented about emotional and rational, not about better or worse.

Second, I do not think you understand what a rationalist is. Actually is a very distorted word. A rationalist does not want neither data nor science, wants arguments and concepts. This is why I do not feel myself obliged to provide data. However, is true, I made an assumption. And it would require a whole thread to demonstrate when I think (maybe I am wrong) is quite obvious that there are more collectivists in society that individualists.

Last, I did not say female = collectivists, I did say average of female is probably collectivists. Happily, there are exceptions everywhere. But I am not sure that you are aware of the actual meaning of these words.

Update: http://www.slobodaiprosperitet.tv/sites/default/files/images/ayn_rand_when_you_see.preview.jpg
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November 12, 2014, 08:31:07 AM
 #93

Velocity of money (lack thereof) is the real reason why gold standard was abolished...

what is exactly the problem with velocity of money in 1971?


Sorry, no government/central bank makes any monetary decision on the basis of velocity of money.

not funding the war which was the indirect reason in 1971 to overturn the law...

a rise in military spending caused by the Vietnam War gradually worsened the overvaluation of the dollar.

End of Bretton Woods system
The system dissolved between 1968 and 1973. In August 1971, U.S. President Richard Nixon announced the "temporary" suspension of the dollar's convertibility into gold.

https://www.imf.org/external/about/histend.htm

HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh??


History is always similar surprisingly!
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November 12, 2014, 08:42:09 AM
 #94

I am neither a female nor a homosexual, but that you assume that, just shows how you think. I am also a rationalist(I don't think, anybody who knows me, would describe me as emotional) and as a rationalist I don't just accept fake data. All your assumption (female=collectivists ; gay=emotional; emotional=collectivists) don't have any scientific backing, do they?
And yes, it is an issue for this thread, since you, the OP, throw it into this discussion and didn't provide any real data about it.

Well, is interesting what you say, but I think you make some mistakes. Sorry your nick confused me with a girl. First thing clarify I commented about emotional and rational, not about better or worse.

Second, I do not think you understand what a rationalist is. A rationalist does not want neither data nor science, wants arguments and concepts. This is why I do not feel myself obliged to provide data. However, is true, I made an assumption.

Last, I did not say female = collectivists, I did say average of female is probably collectivists. But I am not sure that you are aware of the actual meaning of these words.
In fact my nick is gender-neutral, which was a mistake I made when I created it many years ago Wink

I might repeat myself, but a stereotype is still not an argument. I just get to often in discussion, where people throw in prejudice as facts. Yesterday a coworker just throw in again, that refugees get € 1000 a month for nothing, which I already told him weeks ago that it is some made up data from right wing nutheads, he could easily disprove by himself, by googling it. Did he google it? No, he just ignored my suggestion.
(Sorry, I got carried away)
Rationalism without data proofing don't really fit in my opinion, since prejudice is definitively on the emotional site. If that would be a valid way of arguing, I could make up any data that proves what I want to prove.

Furthermore: Now, throwing in term like "average" and "probably" doesn't make a difference. Again, I have to often been in discussion, where people though it would make their argument better.

But I know, you are not really interested in that. I see that often in financial discussions. It is so easy to show a graph e.g. about GDP-growth or market shares. But when it comes to things, that are not easily quantified, people make just BS-assumptions for the sake of their argument.

https://forum.bitcoin.com/
New censorship-free forum by Roger Ver. Try it out.
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November 15, 2014, 06:09:38 AM
 #95

perhaps it is because  cryptocurrency market is not stable now, and lack of regulation.

This would be solved by a functional analysis of the 'domain' demonstrating validity, is not it? Is there such a paper on the community? Furthermore, does current body of knowledge of economics provides such a foundational framework to build this analysis on top of it? To clarify, my "analysis" is carried out from the opposite school of economics

(By 'domain' I am referring to monetary architectures, not to enterprise service buses).

Off topic: if it does not, where is heading us Brisbane and the like?  Huh

but i do think it will continue to be unstable in the next few years.
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November 15, 2014, 06:10:56 AM
 #96



Much text wow lol
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November 15, 2014, 06:12:13 AM
 #97

Hi, this is my first message in the board so greetings everybody.

Well, I have been following the cryptocoin market for a while. I have felt the temptation to get involved quite a few times since it looks the only promising initiative to allow citizens decide their own future. By the way clarify that I am a libertarian, Austrian advocate, despite I am aware of flaws in Austrian economics which makes me a bit a Popperian more that a Hayekian. As an IT contractor I have got involved in projects for Central Banks and Statistical Offices in Europe so I known a bit how the mainstream works and what they intend.

Despite I have thought getting my hands dirty on the crypto world, my (few) approaches to it has been always disappointing. I see that main cryptocoin providers has run away of proposing any ideological battle. Nobody speaks about what ethics is (against morals), what negative liberty means, why the current scientific method (as the foundation of current monetarism) is a logical mistake, what is the difference between positive and normative economics, and what I see in the bitworld is: bits, block chains, mining and hardware. Nothing else. Dissappointing. Huh

So, which is my conclusion of this? If you realize, most of the cryptocompanies have been created out of investors, which instead are feed by Federal Reserve, by BoJ, by ECB injections and by the full mainstream economic machinery. They are no proposing anything new but looking for an alternative way to balance their investments. And this is in my opinion a thief. They have stolen the initial Shatoshi idea, they have occupied it, emptied of any content and they look for to do more of the same carry trade business.  Huh

I have created a discussion board (http://ponzinomics.org/) which I have maintained for 3 months and this is my first attempt trying to hit the market to propose the battle of ideas. The board sits on current mainstream economics and the "current real world", trying to enroll people from all ideologies and trying to make them understand how current system works as a whole. Obviously, as an Austrian I want to convince others why Austrian ideas are better than keynesian models based on the scientific method, but I want to hear opinion of others as well. I have not found this proposal in any place on the whole web, so if you challenge the idea, I want to create a community about it and maybe "evangelize".

That said, I want to hear your opinions about why cryptoworld is not a fake since is funded by the mainstream and does not propose any new ideas just other way to do more of the same thing.


Everyone thinks they understand it.  I always chuckle at day traders... speculators.  It's 5 years old. Nobody, has the experience, to give a knowledgeable judgement on its value.
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November 15, 2014, 06:37:58 AM
 #98



That's so good.

Im baaaack! Looking for sig campaign. DM me if interested.
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November 15, 2014, 03:50:13 PM
 #99

While I agree with you on some points, most I do not. It is like everything in life. An idea is born---> The idea is loyal, true and honest---> A handful of idiots copy it, deface it, and tear down it's initial ideology---> Others follow, but see the idiots for what they are, and copy, but stick to the original philosophy.

Same with, say, a community. You get mostly good people, but there are always that few complete dickheads.

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November 15, 2014, 08:54:50 PM
 #100

I decided analysing a bit more in detail this issue because, I like the cryptos proposal, but I think some requirements must be guaranteed to prevent cryptos becoming the currency of poor people. For the moment, I have just extracted some paragraphs from Hayek's book Denationalisation of Money. I will go further with another Austrian authors in the next few days and, at the final, I will wrap all up in a thread. Then I will update this one. Just, clarify that I am not against cryptos, at all, but looking for how to guarantee that they can be successfully adopted.

Regards
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November 15, 2014, 09:08:05 PM
 #101

nthing at all garanteed.. if people see value they will use it.. the market will always lead govt will have to put out or get out
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November 17, 2014, 10:15:08 PM
 #102

Hi, this is my first message in the board so greetings everybody.

People really shouldn't be able to start threads with Newbie accounts, the spam is relentless.

Well, I have been following the cryptocoin market for a while

Your definition of a while, and my definition of a while are likely very different.  I won't presume to know anything about you, but I would suggest you go and get a job, and stop worrying about what we are doing.  When your first post is a provocative attack, it demonstrates that you are not here to be constructive, and as this is the purpose of this forum it makes your presence here unwanted.
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November 18, 2014, 12:57:51 AM
Last edit: November 18, 2014, 01:59:28 AM by Billbags
 #103

I decided analysing a bit more in detail this issue because, I like the cryptos proposal, but I think some requirements must be guaranteed to prevent cryptos becoming the currency of poor people. For the moment, I have just extracted some paragraphs from Hayek's book Denationalisation of Money. I will go further with another Austrian authors in the next few days and, at the final, I will wrap all up in a thread. Then I will update this one. Just, clarify that I am not against cryptos, at all, but looking for how to guarantee that they can be successfully adopted.

Regards

Here's Szabo on Hayek:

"Austrian economists like Hayek usually eschewed the use of traditional mathematics to describe the economy because such use assumes that economic complexities can be reduced to a small number of axioms."

"As Friedrich Hayek pointed out, our mutual inability to understand a very high fraction of what others know has profound implications for our economic and political institutions. "

Please view these links....

http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2006/02/irreducible-complexity-of-society.html?m=1

http://nakamotoinstitute.org/literature/denationalisation/

http://szabo.best.vwh.net/hermeneutics.html

http://unenumerated.blogspot.co.uk/2007/05/microkernel-government.html?m=1

http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2011/06/of-wages-and-money-cost-as-proxy.html?m=1

http://unenumerated.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/three-philosophical-essays.html?m=1

http://szabo.best.vwh.net/tradition.html

http://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2014/10/04/what-is-ideal-money/

http://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2014/10/01/why-bitcoin-is-and-isnt-ideal-money/

http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/unforgeablecostliness.html

http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/ElectronicProperty/EconomicConseqDigiCash.html

http://letstalkbitcoin.com/forum/post/hayek-on-keyness-ignorance-of-economics-short-video

Here's the links I gave you in the Beginning of the thread.....it's all there:

http://nakamotoinstitute.org/shelling-out/

http://web.archive.org/web/20070618142414/http://szabo.best.vwh.net/scarce.html

http://szabo.best.vwh.net/ttps.html

http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2008/04/bit-gold-markets.html?m=1

http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2011/05/bitcoin-what-took-ye-so-long.html?m=1

http://unenumerated.blogspot.ca/2008/06/commodity-hysteria-overview.html?m=1

The type of discussion you really may be looking for:(read the replies also) Wink
http://www.xenosystems.net/right-on-the-money-1/



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Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 18, 2014, 08:57:10 AM
Last edit: November 20, 2014, 10:06:27 PM by ponzinomics reloaded
 #104

Thanks for the links. Every link would trigger a different debate. I am more a Popperian than a Hayekian in method. However, the links, I think, does not focus in the approach that I have in mind. Even Austrians I think fall short on their analysis of free banking. I know where I want to come but I prefer to back it in references to Austrians view of free banking as I think I agree more to Mises and Rothbard than Hayek, but Hayek studied it more in detail. I will be back to the thread. Is a very interesting issue.

Update: I quit explaining any arguments. Not worth. Alea jacta est. Thanks for the thread
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