GAW / Josh Garza discussion Paycoin XPY xpy.io ION ionomy. ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :)

[maildir]

It has nothing to do with Miners, Mining, Crypto Currency or anything remotely related. It is all thinly disguised as so.

If it were a "disguise", buying 5 PH/s of mining hardware, showing pictures a data center(s), and selling actual physical miners, is an awfully difficult way of creating a disguise, isn't it?  Why not just create a pretty web page somewhere with some data center stock photos and a to-good-to-be-true rate and bank the BTC as long as you can.

It is a scheme to sign up "eyeballs" and then sell the whole thing. You can just as well create an internet forum, sign up as many users as you can, and then peddle it to some marketers.

I doubt there's much of a market for just internet forums.  But I could be wrong.

This is what is happening with this faux crypto currency.

I assume that you, after after reading GAW's WP, will provide your opinion of what "faux" means in this context.

They did not buy physical miners. They bought bulk hashing power at a discount and re-sold it at a profit. Any idiot with a few dollars can do that.

Yes you are wrong on all fronts. There are larger companies than GAW that gobble up internet forums with the stroke of a pen, then spam the hell out of them with adverts.

I take it that you are new to the internet?

[1713530204]

1713530204

[numanoid]

Thanks for the answer.    It's in interesting interaction with crypto and the legal system under US law, since alot of the more scammy things that exist happen outside the boundries of said US law.    Do appreciate your input.

Scott's assertion is somewhat ridiculous.  If you were an insider to a Ponzi and knowingly promoted and invested for your gain, then yes, you may be liable.  That said, "investors" of a ponzi, that don't know it's a ponzi are NOT liable under any case that I've seen.  Many high profile people invested into Madoff's Ponzi that, in turn, made it so successful.  None of these people, who were not in on the scheme, had any criminal prosecution.

They key word is "collaborate" which is clear in its meaning of "working together".  An unaware early investor is NOT liable for criminal nor civil litigation.

Scott, if you disagree, please post examples.  I could find nothing.

I can't speak for Scott and IANAL but I think he might be referring to "Ponzi clawback" and yes, that is a thing.

That's true that in clawback litigation you can lose some of your supposed profits.  I read Scott's post as there could be criminal cases brought against early investors of a ponzi that were unaware it was a ponzi.  This is not true.

[suchmoon]

So what´s with the shitcoin that´s still trading at Cryptsy ?

PYC, Paycoin.

Is that going to coexist with this one ?

I'm sure they'll send a C&D as soon as they figure out who to address it to

Seriously though, looks like a huge oversight to not have bought it out. Some confused buyers may end up with a worthless shitcoin. Look at the price increase since mid November.

https://www.cryptsy.com/markets/view/PYC_BTC

Edit: on second thought, they might be buying it in their typical cart-before-horse fashion. Many weird 0.00040000 BTC buy orders.

[Snipe85]

I see lot of people registering on the forum just to join this thread. They should give you an award or something. Just sayin'  

Who, me? More likely theymos would bill me for extra bandwidth and disk space and I don't think he accepts hashpoints (yes, that's a pathetic attempt to put this back on topic).

Yes, you. He should share the forum profits with you because this must be the the second most active thread right after that one in "speculation".

On topic: GAW should warn their clients not to invest in that cryptsy coin. I'm sure somebody is speculating on it as we speak, hoping to profit on the confusion.

[numanoid]

They did not buy physical miners. They bought bulk hashing power at a discount and re-sold it at a profit. Any idiot with a few dollars can do that.

Do you honestly believe this?

You've made some good points and we agree on several fronts, but if you stand by the above claim with no proof to back it up (and "proof" exists to the contrary) then you've gone down a road I can't follow.

Does Bitmain even rent their gear?  The statement was that GAW purchased 5 PH and Bitmain confirmed it.  Occam's Razor time.

[maildir]

They did not buy physical miners. They bought bulk hashing power at a discount and re-sold it at a profit. Any idiot with a few dollars can do that.

Do you honestly believe this?

You've made some good points and we agree on several fronts, but if you stand by the above claim with no proof to back it up (and "proof" exists to the contrary) then you've gone down a road I can't follow.

Does Bitmain even rent their gear?  The statement was that GAW purchased 5 PH and Bitmain confirmed it.  Occam's Razor time.

I can guarantee you with certainty that they will not and never will take delivery of 5 PH physical miners.

[corygto]

They did not buy physical miners. They bought bulk hashing power at a discount and re-sold it at a profit. Any idiot with a few dollars can do that.

Do you honestly believe this?

You've made some good points and we agree on several fronts, but if you stand by the above claim with no proof to back it up (and "proof" exists to the contrary) then you've gone down a road I can't follow.

Does Bitmain even rent their gear?  The statement was that GAW purchased 5 PH and Bitmain confirmed it.  Occam's Razor time.

That order doesn't mean anything until they show proof of mining on the blockchain.

[jimmothy]

They did not buy physical miners. They bought bulk hashing power at a discount and re-sold it at a profit. Any idiot with a few dollars can do that.

Do you honestly believe this?

You've made some good points and we agree on several fronts, but if you stand by the above claim with no proof to back it up (and "proof" exists to the contrary) then you've gone down a road I can't follow.

Does Bitmain even rent their gear?  The statement was that GAW purchased 5 PH and Bitmain confirmed it.  Occam's Razor time.

5 PH/s worth of Bitmain S4's are ~3MW.

They claim to have a 15MW DC already operational. That's ~25PH/s.

The pics they've provided as "proof" show something like 500KW worth of hardware.

Nothing adds up when it comes to GAW.

[Snipe85]

They did not buy physical miners. They bought bulk hashing power at a discount and re-sold it at a profit. Any idiot with a few dollars can do that.

Do you honestly believe this?

You've made some good points and we agree on several fronts, but if you stand by the above claim with no proof to back it up (and "proof" exists to the contrary) then you've gone down a road I can't follow.

Does Bitmain even rent their gear?  The statement was that GAW purchased 5 PH and Bitmain confirmed it.  Occam's Razor time.

5 PH/s worth of Bitmain S4's are ~3MW.

They claim to have a 15MW DC already operational. That's ~25PH/s.

The pics they've provided as "proof" show something like 500KW worth of hardware.

Nothing adds up when it comes to GAW.

Did you count? Whatever you say about their legitimacy I saw a picture with a couple hundred bitmain miners and if they spent over a million $, there could be more.

You're debating over the weight of the elephant, but it's important to note that there is an elephant

[suchmoon]

They did not buy physical miners. They bought bulk hashing power at a discount and re-sold it at a profit. Any idiot with a few dollars can do that.

Do you honestly believe this?

You've made some good points and we agree on several fronts, but if you stand by the above claim with no proof to back it up (and "proof" exists to the contrary) then you've gone down a road I can't follow.

Does Bitmain even rent their gear?  The statement was that GAW purchased 5 PH and Bitmain confirmed it.  Occam's Razor time.

I can guarantee you with certainty that they will not and never will take delivery of 5 PH physical miners.

Not sure how you can be so certain, but here is one interesting detail. Those S4s they've been selling on oneminer.com - one of my customers purchased a couple and said they arrived from Hattiesburg MS, seemed to be slightly used, and had GAW's proxy servers in the pool settings. He didn't think of taking a screenshot but apparently there was nothing interesting there anyway (no BTC addresses). Not quite clear why they are selling off those miners but "Bitmain Antminer S4 2 TH/s Shipped (NEW)" it ain't .

[verloren]

Back to my question (waivering on keeping my GAW tag line below)

WHEN if ever is this new GAW Paycoin going to have/and or allow home miners or others not on the GAW network to possibly MINE coins w/o
the purchase of a virtural miner?

just saying I have a 567gh KNC Jupiter from 0ct 2013 sitting here ..I would give the guy cred if such asic sha256 units could
redirect to this coin...

if it is all and or only virtual mining yeah..or NOT AT THIS TIME TO BE DETERMINED well that tells me much too and time to look for a new tagline

(sigh I liked that 0.10 btc a month for 50 posts)

still on fence half the folk swear by gaw half the folks say he is the next BFL with bigger $$$ backers

That's an interesting question, and it doesn't seem to be answered on this timeline: http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/entry/376190/GAW-Timeline/

Technically it should be possible once PayCoin is launched, i.e. the network and the blockchain become available - sometime between December 15 and January 2.

Sorry can't help you more, there is not enough information on that.

if i was gonna do such a paycoin deal (even if it was a scam) I would to it with an open pool and sha256 outdated hardware it would create buzz..every frigging old
sha 256 miner would be poised at the launch.....would make quite the media splash...

but then again that run away horse you would have a hard time 'spinning' the facts on how well the coin was doing etc..you'd be giving up control

my guess is because we have NOT heard such touted...we will get 'in the future' comment

again if all vitural controlled by gaw this paycoin etc...well then that will tell us much

IMO, it's not in GAW's best interest to open up Paycoin on a public pool if they want the coin to succeed. There are a lot of mining whales out there that could kill Paycoin with their hashrate and dumping mined coins on the market.

[jimmothy]

5 PH/s worth of Bitmain S4's are ~3MW.

They claim to have a 15MW DC already operational. That's ~25PH/s.

The pics they've provided as "proof" show something like 500KW worth of hardware.

Nothing adds up when it comes to GAW.

Did you count? Whatever you say about their legitimacy I saw a picture with a couple hundred bitmain miners and if they spent over a million $, there could be more.

I guesstimated ~400 miners. They are claiming to have 2500 miners from the single Bitmain order, and 12,500 assuming all 15MW powering Bitmain hardware.

You're debating over the weight of the elephant, but it's important to note that there is an elephant

Yes there's an elephant alright, the only problem is nobody knows how big. (or if it's even still alive)

GAW is claiming to have a 10,000 lb elephant yet refuses to provide any proof other than this pic of when it was a baby.



Why should I believe this isn't the 50th elephant scam?

[suchmoon]

or if it's even still alive

Schrödinger's elephant.

[maildir]

Interesting but mere gossip at the same time, the usual gossip mongers around the water cooler today are now suggesting that Josh is the son of Stuart. Some college or earlier in life liaison that he wishes went away.

Amusing to say the least but indeed double checking and cross-referencing, the closed smiles and pasty blotchy faces and pretend sheepish head hanging posing in all photos suggest it could be? Same thin lipped clenched mouth situation going on.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn.inside.com/slide/53e548a041505064a0360000/medium/medium_image-53e548a041505064a0360000-coalesced

http://www.bus.miami.edu/_assets/images/news-and-media/recent-news/2009/fraser-visit-1.jpg

http://cointelegraph.com/storage/uploads/view/2b9dd5d052f23a2de9ff2f97ff29382a.jpg


http://prohockeynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/1/3512537644_8baab1fdca.jpg

Perhaps an earlier indiscretion in Tijuana in his youth hence the familial odd naming convention?

[elkrisi]

When the coin opens to the public on Jan. 2 with what Mr. Garza says will be an anticipated market capitalization of $250 million, the company will partly back that with a store of fiat currency worth around $100 million.

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/11/25/bitbeat-gaw-miners-to-launch-bitcoin-challenger-paycoin/

It took bitcoin 4 1/2 years to achieve a market cap of $250 million and GAW expects their coin to achieve that in 3 months (whitepaper to market)?

This makes 0 sense.

You cannot just create $250 million out of thin air.  Markets just don't work like that.

Hey Chris.  I enjoyed your posts on HT in the short time you were there.  I agreed with your challenging posts.  In this case though, I disagree.  I think with the proper investment capital you absolutely CAN start with a market cap with that number.  Unknown startups do that everyday with unknown IPOs.  $250 million is chump change in the VC world.

Now keep in mind that this will be the market cap at launch.  5 minutes after launch and we'll see what the actual market cap is.  The fiat backing is probably the biggest plus of this coin.  BTC has nothing like it and you can see what happens with its price.  With close to 100 million USD as a glorified buy wall to keep the price up, it's not hard to understand how this number is reached.

Now, if you remember the INITIAL white paper, they said 96 million coins at launch.  At $20 per coin, that put the market cap at over 2 billion USD.  I, and others on HT, were up in arms on the math.  Josh's responses were absolute BS and made me seriously consider dumping everything I had at GAW since the math did not add up.

With the NEW whitepaper and a mere 5ish million coins for the ICO (and a total coin amount down to 12 million from 1.2 BILLION) made the numbers add up a bit.

Regardless of all that shit I just wrote (heh) the bottom line is you can't compare the early days of BTC to paycoin.  A closer comparison would be to SYScoin, which supposedly had a few hundred BTC to keep the price up.  Anyone who followed SYS knows they had a horrible launch and were in league with a verified scammer.

I'll let the more witty posters here comment on the above with regards to GAW.  

That said, I don't believe for a second that Josh is out to scam us.  I do believe that he may be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over his head in launching a new coin.  As someone who has been "mining" this coin for weeks now I hope for the best but am prepared for the worst.

My sentiments exactly. Not having a solid position on the very basics, like how many coins are going to be, was a huge red flag for me also. Actually, I liquidated part of my investment in GAW right there.

However, I'm not into black or white thinking. Things can be very dynamic. What once was a legit business can gradually turn into scam, and what starts as a scam may very well sustain a legit business if conditions are right for that.

I also agree with the remark that Josh is WAAAAAYYYYYY over his head with this venture. The "whitepaper" reads like someone has copy-pasted all the ideas from DarkCoin, Syscoin, VIA, Ripple and so on.
To say that in a few short months you will have all those techno-miracles ready for actual use by lay people is another red flag.
But I'm giving GAW the benefit of the doubt. This is crypto world. We are into uncharted territory so what is unbelievable and impossible may very well be in the process of happening.

I keep my distance, try to keep eyes wide open and give right now GAW a 20% chance of being legit and honest in their targets.
 

[maildir]

Post Script

Inb4

'With regret we announce the resignation of our Vice-Chairman, Stuart Fraser. Stuart has felt it is time to move on and spend more time with his family......"

[verloren]

Interesting but mere gossip at the same time, the usual gossip mongers around the water cooler today are now suggesting that Josh is the son of Stuart. Some college or earlier in life liaison that he wishes went away.

Amusing to say the least but indeed double checking and cross-referencing, the closed smiles and pasty blotchy faces and pretend sheepish head hanging posing in all photos suggest it could be? Same thin lipped clenched mouth situation going on.

Perhaps an earlier indiscretion in Tijuana in his youth hence the familial odd naming convention?

Could this stuff stop coming up?

I'm all for discussion of GAW's business plans and whether it is viable or not, but questioning familial relations doesn't do anything when it comes to deciding whether this is a viable option in crypto or a Ponzi scheme. Stuart Fraser is already professionally linked to GAW/Paycoin as one of the major backers in the WSJ blog entry.

[suchmoon]

Perhaps an earlier indiscretion in Tijuana in his youth hence the familial odd naming convention?

The only potential connection to Tijuana is if whatever you're smoking came from there

Seriously, this is way past weird. Please come back.

[KC6TTR]

However, continuing to support that scheme after being notified of the potential and likelihood of it being a Ponzi situation opens those collaborating with the source facilitating the scheme up to liability as well. Just saying...

Please cite any law or case where such a thing has happened.  While you're at it, provide a legal definition of "collaborating" and "notified".  Are you somehow suggesting that your posting on a random Internet forum is some kind of legally valid notification?  Are you somehow suggesting that GAW customers who might read such a random Internet forum and don't close their account now open themselves up to some kind of, in you words, "liability"?  

You're tossing out a bunch of legal-sounding verbiage here, so it's not unreasonable for a reader to ask what your exact legal qualifications and training are and what statutes or cases support your position.

Let's get a few points clear here:

A. As far as this and any other web forum is concerned, I am present and acting as a private individual who happens to also be a citizen of the US.

B. I have never accused anyone OTHER than GAW/Zen and its "CEO" of anything without having more than enough proof to back up my individual position. Seriously, I have a life and multiple businesses to run myself so why would I waist my time and that of others if I didn't have the proof and other resources to backup my claims? I do not need the attention or drama, but if I do not speak up, exercise my rights, and file (along side others) the appropriate complaints with the proper authorities against those who I believe wish to defraud and degrade the evolving technological business sector, then morally I am no better than those I believe should be held accountable.

C. I have never claimed to be an attorney or act as a legal authority on any specific subject. I have my own legal representation I pay handsomely for such matters. With that said, I am college educated and do have over 18 years of global (US, HK, DE, AU, an UK) corporate business experience with a focus on technology, IP, and contract law compliance. If some of the language and references I use are too full of "legalities" for you, then I am sorry. Given the topic of this discussion, it is what it is. What I can do is apologize for any missed typos in advance since I am often doing multiple things at once and do not have the time to run everything through a spell/grammar checker first.

Now, you want case law and other references to how things are changing here in the US regarding Ponzi schemes and those who are complacent and/or unjustly benefiting from the continuation of these schemes (or the fallout)? OK, here are a few...

Let's start with Florida:


Now, jump across the country to here in California where this "both sides of the coin" paper offers plenty of reference content:
http://www.theponzibook.com/CBLP_2012_Liabilitiy_of_Professionals_Phelps.pdf

And another story or two worth reading:
http://www.lexisnexis.com/legalnewsroom/bankruptcy/b/bankruptcy-law-blog/archive/2012/10/17/banks-beware-aiding-and-abetting-claims-in-ponzi-cases-are-still-alive-and-well.aspx

That should be enough for now.

Scott-

[maildir]

I see, it touches quite the nerve. One must wonder why no? A seemingly illiterate high school drop out who does not know the difference between then and than, a massively successfully world famous financial company, who's Vice Chairman parades around the youthful device known as twitter, gibbering with multiple exclamation points !!! like a tween, about this equally incredibly weird faux coin venture.

It is true that CF is in the technology sphere in a big way:


http://www.cantor.com/portfolio/cgtechnology

noted where no mention of this venture is indicated and at the same time

no mention at all of GAW being present or part of the single next most important crypto currency meetings of this year and forward:

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-events/