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Author Topic: [ANN] The world's first handheld Bitcoin device, the Ellet!  (Read 45418 times)
Matthew N. Wright
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June 07, 2012, 01:14:52 AM
 #1

What is it?

The Ellet (as an Electronic Wallet) is a way to send money from the palm of your hand. This device has been secretly developed as the BitDex for over the past 9 months. It comes in at a similar weight and height as the iPod nano 3rd generation and lets you send Bitcoin, Namecoin, Litecoin, Paypal, Dwolla, and almost anything else you can imagine, all instantly from the palm of your hand!




Why is it important?

The Ellet solves several issues that payment processors have, but most specifically for Bitcoin it solves these issues:

  • Needing the blockchain -- Bitcoin requires downloading a heavy blockchain to function properly. The Ellet functions instantly for Bitcoin transactions and incorporates a secure Electrum client written specifically for Ellet architecture.

  • Needing to remember complex addresses -- Although the Ellet allows scanning in QR codes, a phonebook style saved address list, and manual entry as a backup, it also transmits it's own addresses on command to other Elletes to allow for anyone with a Ellet to instantly become a Point of Sale merchant.

  • Mobility -- Mobile phones and tablets rely heavily on browser features and website functionality to use online wallets to which trust is still required. This obvious insecure and complicated scheme only seems more efficient in a world without Ellet. The Ellet is completely portable, can run for over 40 hours without recharging, and works anywhere you take it for live transactions.

  • Security -- Dedicated services require trust in your own technical abilities. Remote storage requires trust in strangers and their technical abilities. As a dedicated, encrypted and hardware locked device, the Ellet is safe from hacking, malware, and even if stolen, cannot be used to take your money. Simply load your encrypted backup into your replacement Ellet if stolen and your funds will be right where you left them.

  • Cost and Accessibility -- You need a device of some sort to use Bitcoins. Desktops, laptops and tablets are not cheap (not nearly as cheap as the Ellet with an estimated $30 MSRP) and storing your wallet someplace remote will not help you when you need your coins now. A Ellet gives you a cost effective way to access your money all day, whenever and wherever you need it (and not just Bitcoins, but most any payment system and digital currency you can imagine).

  • Lost wallets -- There is no reason why your money needs to be lost due to formats, viruses, site hacks or broken hardware. The Ellet will perform encrypted auto-backups first to it's internal permanent memory, then to your prefered medium, including micro-USB to your computer upon plugging in, or wirelessly to any hosting service you specify. Never lose your money again!

  • Diversification -- With a MSRP of just $30, it is highly cost effective to use multiple Ellet's to store large funds long term in vaults, banks, and your favorite hiding place. Your money will be waiting for you whenever you come for it, even 20 years later!

  • Reliability -- Ellets are manufactured by one of the largest and well known manufacturers of many of the devices you use daily. We spared no expense bringing the best developers, engineers, UI developers and security specialists to the table.

  • Adoption -- To date, there is no better way to start using Bitcoins (or any other digital currencies) than with the Ellet.

  • Purchasing digital currencies -- Buying Bitcoins is still a complicated process for most, but this is solved with Ellet reload cards that can be sent through e-mail or shipped to any location in the world.

  • Connectivity -- The Ellet can connect on the go to any mobile network around the world, no need for any additional mobile accounts, bothersome SIM cards, or the purchase of any external repeater systems. It also works on Wifi too to provide you with uninterrupted signal to suit your needs.




How does it work?

The Ellet is a custom built hardware device that connects over various methods (available methods vary by country) to deliver instant payments. The days of needing your credit cards and wallets are almost gone, and the Ellet is leading the way. For the first time on a large scale Bitcoin and other digital currency technologis are put to use in a practical and professional way for consumers all around the world to start using immediately.



Any useful features?

The Ellet has a built-in storefront application for using in place of a Point-of-sale system so that anyone can start accepting Bitcoins (or other digital currencies) immediately. The Ellet can also update automatically from the Ellet store, and wireless download Ellet plugins like margin trading plugins for Kronos.io.



Is this vaporware?

The Ellet already exists. It has for some time, but as the founder of the company I take great pride in bringing my ideas to the masses and will not settle for a low quality rushed job. As many people know from my work on the Bitcoin Magazine, I take quality seriously and am somewhat of a perfectionist when it comes to bringing my ideas to life. The Ellet will work as soon as you turn it on straight out of the box, almost anywhere you go.



How can I reserve one?

We're in no hurry to take people's money as I'm sure we're all tired of seeing threads written by foot-tapping impatient customers wondering why the postal service isn't running to their doorstep! Everyone will have an equally fair chance of ordering one and although we only expect to make a limited run, we expect it to be sold out shortly after. There will be a kickstarter page up within the week to help raise more funds for production. At the moment that will be the only page we accept payments through.



How much does it cost?

We're aiming at spending over $1 million USD to get a mere 50,000 units manufactured. After marketing expenses for the USA alone, that puts us at an overall loss at a pricetag of $30, but we are gladly taking that risk under the belief that this experimental project will grow to unprecedented popularity, rivaling even the iPod.


Look for more updates at Elletsys.com and our upcoming article (including a complete photo showcase of real world usage) in the Bitcoin Magazine!

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June 07, 2012, 01:19:31 AM
 #2

Very exciting! I'm looking forward to seeing some pictures and learning the details.

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June 07, 2012, 01:24:18 AM
 #3

It supports Paypal and Dwolla? WTF really? And how soon is it that it will be rendered useless because one of those providers hates it and doesn't want you on their service?

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June 07, 2012, 01:29:45 AM
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will not settle for a low quility rushed job

i love the irony in that statement Cheesy

looking forward to pics/screenshots!

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June 07, 2012, 01:32:23 AM
 #5

Subbed.   I am excited to see this as well.   A nice dedicated mobile terminal would be great.


Will it have network capabilities?

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June 07, 2012, 01:36:39 AM
 #6

Even if this is total vaporware, it is still worth a kickstart.

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June 07, 2012, 01:41:53 AM
 #7

Sounds exciting!
How about a free Ellet for those with 12 month magazine sub  Grin

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June 07, 2012, 02:03:23 AM
 #8

There have been some muggings in my area lately.  If someone holds me at knifepoint and forces me to transfer all of the money from my account to them, is there a process for me to retrieve it?

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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June 07, 2012, 02:05:17 AM
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looking forward to pics.

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June 07, 2012, 02:07:26 AM
 #10

Pics or it didnt happen...

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June 07, 2012, 02:21:24 AM
 #11

Have you considered a "freemium" model.  Well more like financing.   Why not give the devices away, but hardcode some fees be sent to you for a period of time until $30 is hit or something.

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June 07, 2012, 02:24:15 AM
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I sense a sock puppet meltdown approaching.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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June 07, 2012, 02:26:12 AM
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pics or it didn't happen
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June 07, 2012, 02:31:08 AM
 #14

I can vouch that this product does in fact exist.
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June 07, 2012, 02:37:43 AM
 #15

There have been some muggings in my area lately.  If someone holds me at knifepoint and forces me to transfer all of the money from my account to them, is there a process for me to retrieve it?

The same thing could happen with any sort of money. They could force you to go to an ATM and do the same thing.

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June 07, 2012, 02:40:19 AM
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There have been some muggings in my area lately.  If someone holds me at knifepoint and forces me to transfer all of the money from my account to them, is there a process for me to retrieve it?

The same thing could happen with any sort of money. They could force you to go to an ATM and do the same thing.

But this wouldn't have to be done in public.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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June 07, 2012, 02:46:17 AM
 #17

Watching.

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June 07, 2012, 02:47:25 AM
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There have been some muggings in my area lately.  If someone holds me at knifepoint and forces me to transfer all of the money from my account to them, is there a process for me to retrieve it?

The same thing could happen with any sort of money. They could force you to go to an ATM and do the same thing.

At least the ATM will have a camera to film the event.

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June 07, 2012, 02:58:44 AM
 #19

There have been some muggings in my area lately.  If someone holds me at knifepoint and forces me to transfer all of the money from my account to them, is there a process for me to retrieve it?

The same thing could happen with any sort of money. They could force you to go to an ATM and do the same thing.

And the bank would generally refund the money, same with fraud on a credit card.  I'm wondering if there is a process setup here for a refund in case I am robbed of my bitcoins.

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June 07, 2012, 03:01:32 AM
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And the bank would generally refund the money, same with fraud on a credit card.  I'm wondering if there is a process setup here for a refund in case I am robbed of my bitcoins.
What you are describing is insurance. I'm sure that if enough people want this kind of service somebody will be willing to start a business that provides it. Don't expect that service to be free, however.
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June 07, 2012, 03:22:50 AM
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There have been some muggings in my area lately.  If someone holds me at knifepoint and forces me to transfer all of the money from my account to them, is there a process for me to retrieve it?

How likely is some random mugger to even realise what the device is and that it can be used to transfer funds?  It seems more likely that they'll steal the device thinking it's a tablet than that they'll realise its true purpose.

However, would it possible to build into the technology a "disable" code Matthew - a number which could be punched in to totally disable the device for a set period and which could only be later over-ridden by multi-factor account owner verification?  It sounds like something which should be possible.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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June 07, 2012, 03:31:56 AM
 #22

And the bank would generally refund the money, same with fraud on a credit card.

Source?

Banks don't typically refund the money from debit card transactions at an ATM that require a PIN. I've actually never heard of banks giving free money away to people who tell others their ATM pin number. Seems like a good way to make money if true.

It seems more likely that they'll steal the device thinking it's a tablet than that they'll realise its true purpose.
More likely they will think it's an iPod than a tablet. The size is no where near tablet size as it's smaller than most mobile phones.

However, would it possible to build into the technology a "disable" code Matthew - a number which could be punched in to totally disable the device for a set period and which could only be later over-ridden by multi-factor account owner verification?  It sounds like something which should be possible.

It's something we are discussing but every feature that enables control also opens the door to potential vulnerabilities later on. A GPS inside the device that only the owner knows the ID of would also be useful in tracking and recovering the lost device or leading the police to their location if stolen, but such a feature would also turn privacy obsessed individuals off out of some rather baseless fears of being tracked for net worth, etc.

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June 07, 2012, 03:59:21 AM
 #23

First off, I would have reamed you a new asshole if you had posted this announcement on Reddit first, but it looks like that's not the case.

Second, for marketing purposes, I wouldn't (have) name it Ellet, for if one wants to learn more about this excellent device, Google results will have it buried below the fold (About 2,120,000 results). Elletia is not even a good choice: About 19,500 results. Hell, even Atlas could have accidentally done better, for Woolong Device is currently at about 182 results.

This post is in way dissing the team behind Ellet or the product itself, but damn it guys, let's at least get the name (w)right for marketing purposes alone.

~Bruno~

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June 07, 2012, 04:23:25 AM
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June 07, 2012, 04:29:25 AM
 #25

First off, I would have reamed you a new asshole if you had posted this announcement on Reddit first, but it looks like that's not the case.

Second, for marketing purposes, I wouldn't (have) name it Ellet, for if one wants to learn more about this excellent device, Google results will have it buried below the fold (About 2,120,000 results). Elletia is not even a good choice: About 19,500 results. Hell, even Atlas could have accidentally done better, for Woolong Device is currently at about 182 results.

This post is in way dissing the team behind Ellet or the product itself, but damn it guys, let's at least get the name (w)right for marketing purposes alone.

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That really doesn't matter. If it gets any popularity at all it'll crush Ellet High School and a few long dead guys. I would think most pronounceable 5 letter combinations would have a lot more competition than Ellet.

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June 07, 2012, 04:47:31 AM
 #26

I like both names, Bitdex and Ellet. Why not Bitelletdex?  Cheesy

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June 07, 2012, 04:59:16 AM
 #27

I like both names, Bitdex and Ellet. Why not Bitelletdex?  Cheesy

Bitlet not bad.

edit: yeah, that's what I'm calling it, bitlet

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June 07, 2012, 05:10:12 AM
 #28

edit: yeah, that's what I'm calling it, bitlet

I like Bit-o-let.  and its portable too, but no that doesn't make it a port-o-let.

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June 07, 2012, 05:11:52 AM
 #29

Pics or it didnt happen...

Cheesy

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June 07, 2012, 05:22:10 AM
 #30

Quote
Source?

Banks don't typically refund the money from debit card transactions at an ATM that require a PIN. I've actually never heard of banks giving free money away to people who tell others their ATM pin number. Seems like a good way to make money if true.

http://www.wdfi.org/ymm/brochures/credit/check_cards.asp

Quote
Debit Cards

The process is different for debit cards. If you report your debit card lost or stolen before the card is fraudulently used to make purchases or cash advances; the card issuer cannot hold you responsible for the fraudulent use. If the card is used by the thief before you report it missing, but you reported the card missing within two days of discovering the card missing, your liability is limited to the amount of the fraudulent withdrawals or $50, whichever is less. If you do not report the card missing within two days, your liability rises to the amount of the fraudulent withdrawals or $500, whichever is less. If you don't report the card missing within 60 days of receiving your first account statement that showed a fraudulent withdrawal, you can be liable for all withdrawals. That means you could lose everything in your account in addition to the unused portion of any line of credit that was established to cover overdrafts. Regardless of when you report the card lost or stolen, you cannot be held liable for any unauthorized withdrawals made after you reported the card missing.

To encourage the use of debit cards some financial institutions may have policies that provide more protection against unauthorized use than what is required by law. For instance, an organization may extend the length of time the customer has to report a stolen card or may state it will not hold customers liable for any unauthorized withdrawals. It is important to fully understand these policies because they may not be as good as they first appear. For instance, an organization may have a "no liability policy," however; the policy may only apply if the thief uses the card with that organization's network.

You are absolutely not held liable for having your checking account wiped out at knifepoint as long as you report what occured.  And no, it's not a good way to make money since if you try to do this with your friend one of you is going to be on camera at the ATM.  However, they also don't hold you liable for online purchases, just make sure you aren't buying something that can be traced back to you if you want to take the extremely unwise attempt to scam this way.

Quote
What you are describing is insurance. I'm sure that if enough people want this kind of service somebody will be willing to start a business that provides it. Don't expect that service to be free, however.

My checking account is free, I'm not paying for any insurance on it.  


So it sounds like this system has some serious security kinks that need to be worked out, I'm not sure why I should be held liable if funds are stolen with this device but not with my debit card.

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June 07, 2012, 05:25:40 AM
 #31

My checking account is free, I'm not paying for any insurance on it.
Of course you are. You just don't notice it because it's never itemized anywhere on a bill.
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June 07, 2012, 05:28:09 AM
 #32

My checking account is free, I'm not paying for any insurance on it.
Of course you are. You just don't notice it because it's never itemized anywhere on a bill.

Because there is no bill.

Because the service is free.

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June 07, 2012, 05:29:02 AM
 #33

Because there is no bill.

Because the service is free.
Of course it is.
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June 07, 2012, 05:29:22 AM
 #34

Another Matthew N. Wright project launch!

I'm on pins and needles!

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June 07, 2012, 06:00:32 AM
 #35

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June 07, 2012, 06:05:33 AM
 #36

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June 07, 2012, 06:15:00 AM
 #37

Bitcoinpurse
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LOL

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June 07, 2012, 06:29:27 AM
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It could just be me, but I am failing to see the benefit of such a thing when compared to a smartphone?

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June 07, 2012, 06:40:12 AM
 #39

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June 07, 2012, 07:11:37 AM
 #40

Great project!
Can you somehow make or email recipts, since its needed for stores to give to customers.

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June 07, 2012, 07:38:45 AM
 #41

Time to chime in again, now that a proper naming discussion has taken hold.

I offer up BitCirrus, as in a Bitcoin Cloud held in your hand, coupled with taken Bitcoin to the next level, thus making it a more serious contender. Maybe even better could be BitCirr or Bitcirr or bitcirr or bitsirr (as in bitcoins please, sir), but I digress. Back to BitCirrus with one of the domains being bitcirr.us.

Now we need a slogan, one incorporating a word(s) related to clouds and the transferring of money (coins).

BitCirrus: Bitcoin Clouds in Motion (first attempt, but try to do better)

~Bruno~

EDIT: Damn if this image doesn't personify what I'm trying to relay here. You can see the bitcoins flowing in this image--from one hand to another.


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June 07, 2012, 08:11:29 AM
 #42

Interesting idea. I'm curious about the reliability of the permanant backup storage.

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June 07, 2012, 08:34:57 AM
 #43

Bitcoinpurse
Webbet
iPaid
Bitfold
Coindex
Dwallet
PGPocketbook
E-Greeder
Spendle
Personal Digital Accountant
PocketBank
Mobile Exchange Device
TxRx
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BlockBerry

LOL

Just to turn the knife...BitcoiniCard

Edit: Just a few more...
Americoin Express
MasterCoin
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June 07, 2012, 10:12:08 AM
 #44

It supports Paypal and Dwolla?

Money is money. The distinction between Bitcoin, Namecoin, Litecoin, Paypal, MoneyBookers, NETELLER, or most other online transaction solutions is not clearly made by the average consumer, which is why it will support most every method of payment that the average consumer uses.

For those who are disenchanted by this not being a Bitcoin-only device (because bitcoin!), let me first say that the decision came with a lot of thought. The only way Bitcoin will ever succeed is if it's allowed proper competition. Being unknown is not proper competition, but neither is forcing consumers to use only Bitcoin (which effectively puts it dead in the water). Creating a free market environment where you are allowed to use Bitcoin side-by-side with other digital currencies is the best way to outline the benefits of Bitcoin that bitcoiners brag about so often. If this makes you nervous as a bitcoiner, then it means we've failed to provide a valuable and trustworthy digital currency and Bitcoin is inherently flawed.

People will eventually choose Bitcoin if it's faster, cheaper, and more reliable for them. As far as adoption speaks, the Ellet is the first truly realistic attempt at getting Bitcoins in the hands of every consumer on the planet.

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June 07, 2012, 10:23:08 AM
 #45

And let's forget the userbase for a multi-money/currency device will be much larger. This will lead to many more people being exposed to Bitcoin and exposure is key. Once they see the advantages Bitcoin can offer, they will surely consider using it.

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June 07, 2012, 10:51:21 AM
 #46

This is great. The name is also good, it doesn't need changing. Smiley

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June 07, 2012, 01:06:35 PM
 #47

Because there is no bill.

Because the service is free.
Of course it is.
Quit being such a condescending dick. Of course it can be free. My checking account actually pays me interest, and the interest is actually greater than that of my savings account. Additionally there are other perks, such as refunds of ATM fees, and more.

If you are using a shitty bank that charges you money to use a checking account, don't assume that all other banks suck that hard. Also, switch banks.

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June 07, 2012, 01:07:09 PM
 #48

What is coming next week? Title makes it sound like the device is, but only reference to next week is the kickstarter?

And the name is fine, stop being nerds.

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June 07, 2012, 01:10:32 PM
 #49


And the name is fine, stop being nerds.
Aww come on, I loved "Merkle Lynch" lol Grin

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June 07, 2012, 01:20:08 PM
 #50

What is coming next week? Title makes it sound like the device is, but only reference to next week is the kickstarter?

And the name is fine, stop being nerds.

To clarify, the fund raising efforts don't stop even with 50,000 units in the hands of consumers. The Ellet will be marketed all over the world (not a cheap or trivial endeavor) so there must be continued fund raising efforts, even at a small level at universities and such.

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June 07, 2012, 01:32:43 PM
 #51

-I dont like the name, I guess its hard to settle on ellet when bitdex was so good. bitlet didnt seem so bad either.
-I dont like that it supports other currencies I only care about bitcoins as a digital currency and credit cards for USD but I understand why this is done, it is impressive if it can really support all of those especially dwolla and paypal.
-I dont like the reddit page that is a really stupid.

-good news? I love everything else about the device especially the 40hour battery life and all the ways to back up your wallet!

will it work off wifi?
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June 07, 2012, 01:47:52 PM
 #52

-I dont like the name, I guess its hard to settle on ellet when bitdex was so good. bitlet didnt seem so bad either.
-I dont like that it supports other currencies I only care about bitcoins as a digital currency and credit cards for USD but I understand why this is done, it is impressive if it can really support all of those especially dwolla and paypal.
-I dont like the reddit page that is a really stupid.

-good news? I love everything else about the device especially the 40hour battery life and all the ways to back up your wallet!

will it work off wifi?

I wish there were more informed and constructively critical consumers like yourself. This is how to give proper feedback on a product.

Your points are well received. I hesitate to list technical specifications at this point because although the feature set is highly unlikely to change, the hardware behind it may directly relative to manufacturing costs and difficulties, licensing, better solutions making themselves known, etc.

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June 07, 2012, 01:51:01 PM
 #53

Great project!
Can you somehow make or email recipts, since its needed for stores to give to customers.

That is an excellent suggestion, some merchants offer this now on usd transactions i see no reason why out wouldn't be standard for all bitcoin merchant transactions much less transactions to a merchant from an ellet.

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June 07, 2012, 01:57:39 PM
 #54

I generally try not to post negative commentary, but I think there's an obvious point being missed.  Even assuming this device is made perfectly, no bugs, ships on time, performs better then expected, is cheaper than projected, and looks cooler then cool... It's still going to fail.

Purchasing a separate device to use for payments (in addition to smartphone, WALLET/PURSE, ipad/tablet, etc...) is a D.O.A. concept for all but a few of us nerds.

Why would I carry around ANOTHER single-purpose device?  The money/time/energy would be better spent integrating this concept into NFC/Bluetooth smartphone transactions.  See how many smartphones around the world are already being used for micropayments.  If you could one-up them by adding paypal, dwolla, btc, etc, you might have a viable business model.

I do think its a cool idea in a geek-cred sort of way - but global adoption? C'mon.  Even if BTC became the dominant worldwide currency, you could still make a P.O.S. purchase with a QR code of your BTC address using your smartphone; or some other method using existing tech.

'Who is picking up the check for lunch today?'
'Not me, I forgot to charge my wallet!'

Sorry, but -1.

My forum name comes from ye old BBS days when 'handles' were all the rage.  And yes, Assasin is spelled incorrectly on purpose. Teenage boys do that stuff.
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June 07, 2012, 02:08:56 PM
 #55

I would wear a device on my wrist that doubles as a watch and lets me do all the things the ellet is claimed to do Smiley

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June 07, 2012, 02:24:21 PM
 #56

This is something ive been looking forward to. Phones are hard to secure - with a mish-mash of closed source programs its hard to keep track of whats going on. In this sense iphone is very failed. Android is failed in this sense a little less but has other problems. In particular i saw an exploit where permissions where broken and also every app has read/write to the sdcard.
Even blackberry isnt great especially the newer blackberries. Having a separate device, whether its this or another phone ( i.e replicant android with no binary blob dmodem drivers) is the only pragmatic way to go at the moment.

Certainly id buy one, especially if hackable and able to repurpose. Would buy one anyway at that price just for curiosities sake or give out as presents. Would make IOUs for family members a lot more efficient, if those family members need help with tech ewpecially.


Once again, comparing to fiat and credit is silly. Bitcoin is CASH. Thats the whole point. You dont carry round your savings in a duffle bag. Here you have to do the same.
Having lived in a cash society this is a culture change. When you go out for the day you have to guess how much cash to take with you. Its a bit inconvenient at first but youre so much more in control and you know exactly what you have.  Unlike cash fiat though its yours.

Cash societies would understand this better. People used to debit and credit cards wont understabd until they go to pay and cant. Those are the people who need to be given these for christmas and birthdays.

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June 07, 2012, 02:39:00 PM
 #57

I generally try not to post negative commentary, but I think there's an obvious point being missed.  Even assuming this device is made perfectly, no bugs, ships on time, performs better then expected, is cheaper than projected, and looks cooler then cool... It's still going to fail.

Purchasing a separate device to use for payments (in addition to smartphone, WALLET/PURSE, ipad/tablet, etc...) is a D.O.A. concept for all but a few of us nerds.

Why would I carry around ANOTHER single-purpose device?  The money/time/energy would be better spent integrating this concept into NFC/Bluetooth smartphone transactions.  See how many smartphones around the world are already being used for micropayments.  If you could one-up them by adding paypal, dwolla, btc, etc, you might have a viable business model.

I do think its a cool idea in a geek-cred sort of way - but global adoption? C'mon.  Even if BTC became the dominant worldwide currency, you could still make a P.O.S. purchase with a QR code of your BTC address using your smartphone; or some other method using existing tech.

'Who is picking up the check for lunch today?'
'Not me, I forgot to charge my wallet!'

Sorry, but -1.
Exactly this.
And seeing with how much fear MWN started to attack this bitcoincard thing (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=78171.0), I cannot resist feeling that this bitcoin card is indeed the future.
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June 07, 2012, 03:15:49 PM
 #58

I generally try not to post negative commentary, but I think there's an obvious point being missed.  Even assuming this device is made perfectly, no bugs, ships on time, performs better then expected, is cheaper than projected, and looks cooler then cool... It's still going to fail.

Purchasing a separate device to use for payments (in addition to smartphone, WALLET/PURSE, ipad/tablet, etc...) is a D.O.A. concept for all but a few of us nerds.

Why would I carry around ANOTHER single-purpose device?  The money/time/energy would be better spent integrating this concept into NFC/Bluetooth smartphone transactions.  See how many smartphones around the world are already being used for micropayments.  If you could one-up them by adding paypal, dwolla, btc, etc, you might have a viable business model.

I do think its a cool idea in a geek-cred sort of way - but global adoption? C'mon.  Even if BTC became the dominant worldwide currency, you could still make a P.O.S. purchase with a QR code of your BTC address using your smartphone; or some other method using existing tech.

'Who is picking up the check for lunch today?'
'Not me, I forgot to charge my wallet!'

Sorry, but -1.


I like Matthew and he's done a bang-up job with the magazine, but I have to agree here.  The key to getting wider adoption is absolutely, positively in making better software, not hardware.  

I'm sure over the years, dozens of aspiring Facebook employees wanted to make a portable "facebook device", and every one of them got shot down in flames.  The same reason why Palm Pilot went bust as soon as phones became small enough.

The proper way to make bitcoin usable is add it onto the devices people carry around with them already, mainly a mobile phone.  I have an ipod, but I never use it anymore, now that I can put my music on my phone.  I have stacks of CDs that are collecting dust, I never use them anymore, I just plug my phone into the car AUX jack.

My wallet I would love to consolidate.  it's full of paper money, receipts, credit cards, debit cards, gift cards, a whole bunch of crap that needs to be consolidated and digitized.  I feel like its the equivalent of carrying around a case of CDs.  

I'm hoping that YC will get a great product out of piuk to solve this problem.

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June 07, 2012, 03:41:34 PM
 #59

"Ellet" sounds awful  Shocked

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June 07, 2012, 03:43:55 PM
 #60

Tony, thanks for the comment. I've heard this argument before even with other projects like Yifu's tablet but ultimately all that matters is what consumers want and what the product can do.

All obvious security benefits aside, I don't think the argument of consumers not wanting multiple devices has ever had any merit. One need look no further than iPod to see that. Mobile phones have the same mp3 playing functionality, but proper branding, marketing and a feature list made it a household device all across the world.

Let the free market decide!

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June 07, 2012, 03:46:02 PM
 #61

I'm not so sure this will fly as a consumer device, but if it has good POS functionality it might be just the thing to get retail operations on board with bitcoin. Imagine a small shop with a couple teenagers as cashiers. You don't want them using their own smartphones or the store owner's to do POS transactions, but having a small and cheap device next to the cash register would be easy to integrate into your regular operations.

Having some way for it to be integrated into an existing POS system would be very helpful (at least for those businesses that care about accurate accounting).

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June 07, 2012, 03:47:32 PM
 #62

Tony, thanks for the comment. I've heard this argument before even with other projects like Yifu's tablet but ultimately all that matters is what consumers want and what the product can do.

All obvious security benefits aside, I don't think the arguement of consumers not wanting multiple devices has ever had any merit. One need look no further than iPod to see that. Mobile phones have the same mp3 playing functionality, but proper branding, marketing and a feature list made it a household device all across the world.

Let the free market decide!

ipod sales have been declining for years my friend.  phones are the trend.




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June 07, 2012, 03:54:09 PM
 #63

Because there is no bill.

Because the service is free.
Of course it is.
Quit being such a condescending dick. Of course it can be free. My checking account actually pays me interest, and the interest is actually greater than that of my savings account. Additionally there are other perks, such as refunds of ATM fees, and more.

If you are using a shitty bank that charges you money to use a checking account, don't assume that all other banks suck that hard. Also, switch banks.
Nothing is free. I'm not going to try to force you to understand the mechanisms by which you pay for the services you receive from your bank; but if you're old enough to to be posting on an online forum you really should have figured out by now that perpetual motion doesn't exist anywhere in the universe and so should already be suspicious about any claim of "free".
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June 07, 2012, 04:10:10 PM
 #64

Tony, thanks for the comment. I've heard this argument before even with other projects like Yifu's tablet but ultimately all that matters is what consumers want and what the product can do.

All obvious security benefits aside, I don't think the arguement of consumers not wanting multiple devices has ever had any merit. One need look no further than iPod to see that. Mobile phones have the same mp3 playing functionality, but proper branding, marketing and a feature list made it a household device all across the world.

Let the free market decide!

ipod sales have been declining for years my friend.  phones are the trend.





Sounds like it's time for a new trend ^_-

So what you are counting on is becoming a greater huckster than Apple?  You certainly do need to raise many more millions of dollars in funds... or maybe you can choose a larger font for your announcements. ( and you didn't answer BadBear's question, "What is coming next week?" )
I can't see the market deciding for this over an app they can put on their phone.
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June 07, 2012, 04:10:48 PM
 #65

I personally think there is some fallacy in thinking "Why would someone carry another electronic device when their are smartphones that already facilitate Bitcoin transactions?"

Wish i could remember which one it was called tho.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies


Seriously tho if you really trust that all smartphone manufactures are not hiding packets of data that send statistical usage and data behind your back(without your consent) then please continue to use the smartphones to trust your money with it.

 I know for a fact that after seeing all these hackings with Bitcoins I guarantee their will be businesses(more like scammers) in the future that their sole purposes is to sell cheap smartphones with some (mischievously-altered) open source operating system preloaded on it that will send your private keys to the server and the worst part of it all is that they will encrypt the data so you don't even know what they are sending and those businesses will succeed from selling private keys to other companies and of course on top of selling smart phones to all those who think that fallacy above is true. -- That is all.

Ps. Heck in the future when Bitcoins hits masspopulation/mainstream their will be college kids saying "Hey bro you wanna make some money?", "Sure how?", "lets sell our (altered)phones to innocent people and when they receive Bitcoins on their smartphone they will be automatically sent to us instead"

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June 07, 2012, 04:15:04 PM
 #66

Seriously tho if you really trust that all smartphone manufactures are not hiding packets of data that send statistical usage and data behind your back(without your consent) then please continue to use the smartphones to trust your money with it.

Why should the average consumer trust this new device any more than existing devices? Because Bitcoin!   Wink
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June 07, 2012, 04:24:04 PM
 #67

Nothing is free. I'm not going to try to force you to understand the mechanisms by which you pay for the services you receive from your bank; but if you're old enough to to be posting on an online forum you really should have figured out by now that perpetual motion doesn't exist anywhere in the universe and so should already be suspicious about any claim of "free".
Why do I need to be suspicious? I have a balance sheet with hard numbers on it. Are you going to argue with math and hard numbers?

As for the opportunity cost, well there is no cost if it isn't any worse than the other options, in terms of features and rates.

And I really don't know how the heck you got to the conclusion that anything was "perpetual". Just because one service pays out doesn't mean that there isn't another that sucks it right back in again. I just don't happen to use the credit services that charge 25% APR just because they can. So sue me for not using credit in the way that a bank would like me to, and leaching off of the non-credit, paying services.

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June 07, 2012, 04:27:10 PM
 #68

Seriously tho if you really trust that all smartphone manufactures are not hiding packets of data that send statistical usage and data behind your back(without your consent) then please continue to use the smartphones to trust your money with it.

Why should the average consumer trust this new device any more than existing devices? Because Bitcoin!   Wink

That's a very good point, thanks for bringing that up. Now I can explain why this device should be open source with justification but I can't declare I have any control to make that decision for this product but someone else had to bring it up(besides me) to make it real.
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June 07, 2012, 04:27:36 PM
 #69

I like Matthew and he's done a bang-up job with the magazine, but I have to agree here.  The key to getting wider adoption is absolutely, positively in making better software, not hardware.  

Unfortunately software alone will never be secure enough to protect the private keys of non-tech people. No matter how much you invest in your software, it cannot be more secure than the environment it runs at. And if the environment is "generic", it is not secure.
A dedicated device is needed for security purposes.


That said, I also wonder if people would like to carry another device around. Maybe for daily spends, smartphone apps are the way to go. Devices like this would be kept home, to access your savings account.
Don't know, let's see how it goes.

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June 07, 2012, 04:29:47 PM
 #70

That said, I also wonder if people would like to carry another device around. Maybe for daily spends, smartphone apps are the way to go. Devices like this would be kept home, to access your savings account.
Don't know, let's see how it goes.
The "having another device" issue is the main reason why I am looking forward to a card that fits in my wallet.

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June 07, 2012, 04:53:59 PM
 #71

Why do I need to be suspicious? I have a balance sheet with hard numbers on it. Are you going to argue with math and hard numbers?

As for the opportunity cost, well there is no cost if it isn't any worse than the other options, in terms of features and rates.

And I really don't know how the heck you got to the conclusion that anything was "perpetual". Just because one service pays out doesn't mean that there isn't another that sucks it right back in again. I just don't happen to use the credit services that charge 25% APR just because they can. So sue me for not using credit in the way that a bank would like me to, and leaching off of the non-credit, paying services.
The original question was whether or not the fraud protection provided by banks was free or not. It is not free because the resources the bank uses to refund your money in the event of a stolen card, for example, are resources they aren't using to pay you a higher interest rate on your deposits or provide other services. Likewise, deposit insurance is not free.

People who think the resources which are used to provide certain services in the traditional banking system magically appear out of thin air are going to be confused about why it doesn't work the same way in a Bitcoin economy.
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June 07, 2012, 05:06:41 PM
 #72

People who think the resources which are used to provide certain services in the traditional banking system magically appear out of thin air are going to be confused about why it doesn't work the same way in a Bitcoin economy.

I think i might stick that in meh sig.... well said!
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June 07, 2012, 05:10:26 PM
 #73

Why do I need to be suspicious? I have a balance sheet with hard numbers on it. Are you going to argue with math and hard numbers?

As for the opportunity cost, well there is no cost if it isn't any worse than the other options, in terms of features and rates.

And I really don't know how the heck you got to the conclusion that anything was "perpetual". Just because one service pays out doesn't mean that there isn't another that sucks it right back in again. I just don't happen to use the credit services that charge 25% APR just because they can. So sue me for not using credit in the way that a bank would like me to, and leaching off of the non-credit, paying services.
The original question was whether or not the fraud protection provided by banks was free or not. It is not free because the resources the bank uses to refund your money in the event of a stolen card, for example, are resources they aren't using to pay you a higher interest rate on your deposits or provide other services. Likewise, deposit insurance is not free.

People who think the resources which are used to provide certain services in the traditional banking system magically appear out of thin air are going to be confused about why it doesn't work the same way in a Bitcoin economy.

I see, so if I use the bitcoin wallet instead am I going to get those extra interest payments from the wallet company instead of having them held by the bank?  And then I can pay for my insurance with them?

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June 07, 2012, 05:13:12 PM
 #74

People who think the resources which are used to provide certain services in the traditional banking system magically appear out of thin air are going to be confused about why it doesn't work the same way in a Bitcoin economy.
Very true, but the original argument was whether a user paid specifically for fraud protection, perhaps as a line item. Not where the funds to cover it came from. I am not disputing that banks create money or at least do so indirectly by getting funds from the fed.

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June 07, 2012, 05:14:24 PM
 #75

The Ellet functions instantly for Bitcoin transactions and incorporates a secure Electrum client written specifically for Ellet architecture.

Can the owner specify the server it will connect to, and eventually set up his own?
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June 07, 2012, 05:18:15 PM
 #76

Seriously tho if you really trust that all smartphone manufactures are not hiding packets of data that send statistical usage and data behind your back(without your consent) then please continue to use the smartphones to trust your money with it.

"Trust but Verify" is my motto. 

Here's a scenario for you.  I receive a paper check from a customer for $1,000 for services rendered.  I take a picture of said check with my smartphone, and it deposits that money into my bank account.  After ACH clearing that night, the next day I walk into my local bank and withdraw said $1,000.

This is a service supplied by several large US banks.  Personally my tin foil hat is just as large as yours appears to be and won't let me utilize this service, but vast numbers of the public do.

The money/time/energy would be better spent integrating this concept into NFC/Bluetooth smartphone transactions.  See how many smartphones around the world are already being used for micropayments.  If you could one-up them by adding paypal, dwolla, btc, etc, you might have a viable business model.

Hence my opinion that the time/energy/money being spent here would be better spent making the software and then hardening software/infrastructure etc.  If Chase Bank can [pay some developers to] do it, surely some group here in Bitcoinia (word?) can do it as well or better.

My forum name comes from ye old BBS days when 'handles' were all the rage.  And yes, Assasin is spelled incorrectly on purpose. Teenage boys do that stuff.
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June 07, 2012, 05:22:24 PM
 #77

"Ellet" sounds awful  Shocked

I want to go on record in stating that I don't dislike the name because of the way it sounds or looks (in fact, I'm intrigued by the word), but  I am against naming the product such from a marketing standpoint. Unless the domain ellet.com is own by the team, of which I seriously doubt,

Quote
Registered through: GoDaddy.com, LLC (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: ELLET.COM
Created on: 28-Jun-98
Expires on: 27-Jun-16
Last Updated on: 11-Jul-11

then that fact alone makes it dead-in-the-water, I believe, coupled with the following: https://www.google.com/search?aq=f&sugexp=chrome,mod=14&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=ellet  =  About 2,120,000 results (0.15 seconds). That's the point I was trying to bring home.

In no way were my earlier posts meant as humor toward the product or Matthew. I was simply intrigued with the product and desire to see it succeed, but with proper branding. The product alone will have an uphill battle, so why add improper SEO into the mix, starting with the product's name.

Allow me to illustrate:

Bob: Nice product you have there. What is it?
Alice: It's an Ellet. I never have to carry any forms of money again, for it's all safely stored on my portable cloud.
Bob: Neat! How do you spell that?
Alice: E-L-L-E-T.
Bob: Great! Simple enough. I'll look it up when I get home. (or search on his smartphone when he has more time)
BoB: (later that same day, he searches for Ellet, remembering the spelling) What the fuck! So many results. Maybe I spelled it wrong. I don't have time for this. Too bad Alice was a stranger, or I would call her to get some more information about that great Ellet thing she had. Damn it!

Now, I hope that the above drives home the important point I've been trying to relay.

Later, Matthew.

~Bruno~

YuTü.Co.in
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June 07, 2012, 05:24:01 PM
 #78

As a dedicated, encrypted and hardware locked device, the Ellet is safe from hacking, malware, and even if stolen, cannot be used to take your money.
do you even self believe that? Anything, can be hacked. I don't care about nice and funky hardware features: it will be broken, FAST.

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June 07, 2012, 05:56:10 PM
 #79

As a dedicated, encrypted and hardware locked device, the Ellet is safe from hacking, malware, and even if stolen, cannot be used to take your money.
do you even self believe that? Anything, can be hacked. I don't care about nice and funky hardware features: it will be broken, FAST.

I believe it, its very feasible to have Ellet device not store anything at all and still be able to send bitcoins. Thus in the event of a stolen ellet device there is nothing on it to steal. The wallet seed could be stored by some other means(laminated paper, manually typing it in, or inserting and SD card,etc) and when the ellet device user is ready to send they load it up(This level of security is obviously for only people that hold alot of BTC in their device and/or use it for business transactions)
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June 07, 2012, 06:08:08 PM
 #80

As a dedicated, encrypted and hardware locked device, the Ellet is safe from hacking, malware, and even if stolen, cannot be used to take your money.
do you even self believe that? Anything, can be hacked. I don't care about nice and funky hardware features: it will be broken, FAST.

I believe it, its very feasible to have Ellet device not store anything at all and still be able to send bitcoins. Thus in the event of a stolen ellet device there is nothing on it to steal. The wallet seed could be stored by some other means(laminated paper, manually typing it in, or inserting and SD card,etc) and when the ellet device user is ready to send they load it up(This level of security is obviously for only people that hold alot of BTC in their device and/or use it for business transactions)
nothing on it -> can't make ecdsa signatures -> can't send bitcoins.
something on it -> hackable/stealable/cheatable -> can send bitcoins.
seed-on-paper approach -> steal paper.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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June 07, 2012, 08:02:53 PM
 #81

nothing on it -> can't make ecdsa signatures -> can't send bitcoins.
Load everything from from microsd card or paper

seed-on-paper approach -> steal paper.
Store half of seed on the device, and other half on the paper and the other half is your password you manually type in.

or store nothing on the device, store half the seed on paper(QRcode or microsd card) and the other half in your brain that you manually type in upon wanting to load.
(This is obviously not the one size fits all solution as everyone has different security preferences but since we are down this road)
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June 07, 2012, 11:49:25 PM
 #82

Wow, where can I buy some equity in this Matthew guy? He is quite an entrepreneur.
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June 08, 2012, 12:00:46 AM
 #83

[...]rivaling even the iPod.

Such ambition! I can't wait Grin

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June 08, 2012, 12:21:14 AM
 #84

In 6 months you'll know more.
Printed with smudgy ink

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June 08, 2012, 12:22:28 AM
 #85

Two words - App Store  Smiley

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June 08, 2012, 12:27:02 AM
 #86

Two words - App Store  Smiley

2 words: kicked out

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June 08, 2012, 12:29:18 AM
 #87

Apple will be implementing their own version of the bitcoin software on their devices, and only let you spend it on approved products and services. They wouldn't give that up to the likes of us.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
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June 08, 2012, 12:37:43 AM
 #88

Store half of seed on the device, and other half on the paper and the other half is your password you manually type in.

So the seed has 3 halves?  Sounds complicated.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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June 08, 2012, 12:39:38 AM
 #89

Store half of seed on the device, and other half on the paper and the other half is your password you manually type in.

So the seed has 3 halves?  Sounds complicated.
"Introducing... the One Point Five system! Three halves to be 1.5 times as secure! Coming to a pocket near you, as long as you have a good memory." Grin

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June 08, 2012, 12:43:32 AM
 #90

Two words - App Store  Smiley

2 words: kicked out

Perhaps CCM is referring to this section of the OP:
Quote
The Ellet can also update automatically from the Ellet store, and wireless download Ellet plugins like margin trading plugins for Kronos.io.

If the intention is to follow Apple's "crystal prison" business model, I would want nothing to do with this device. 
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June 08, 2012, 02:10:24 AM
 #91

Store half of seed on the device, and other half on the paper and the other half is your password you manually type in.

So the seed has 3 halves?  Sounds complicated.

Like I implied only for "serious" purchasing security that would be required to prevent large amounts of bitcoins being stolen in the event that you get the device stolen.
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June 08, 2012, 03:42:07 AM
 #92

About 2,120,000 results (0.15 seconds). That's the point I was trying to bring home.

2nd and 3rd entries:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ellet+wallet


That's good enough for a start. Imagine if/once it actually ships.

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June 08, 2012, 04:41:52 AM
 #93

About 2,120,000 results (0.15 seconds). That's the point I was trying to bring home.

2nd and 3rd entries:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ellet+wallet


That's good enough for a start. Imagine if/once it actually ships.

It's already up to 1st and 2nd.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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June 08, 2012, 04:54:09 AM
 #94

About 2,120,000 results (0.15 seconds). That's the point I was trying to bring home.

2nd and 3rd entries:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ellet+wallet


That's good enough for a start. Imagine if/once it actually ships.

It's already up to 1st and 2nd.

I love how SEO' specialists always try to relate high amount of search results with the "difficulty" of reaching the top rank.... lol
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June 08, 2012, 05:08:12 AM
 #95

Cool initiative!
Some comments on the comments:
I have spoken with people at f-secure that say phones viruses, worms and exploits are plentiful. For smartphones, doubly so. Much easier to compromise a wallet on a phone.
And why worry about the keys on this device if it is physically stolen? Will you even carry more btc on it than the device itself costs? And if you have the wallet backed up you have a chance to empty it before the thieves do.

Question: How would the process be, of me transferring btc to a friend or stranger who also carry such a device?
This is something a bitcoincard wouldn't be able to do, but which is necessary to emulate cash.

▄▄█████████▄▄
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MOZO
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▀▄▄ ▀▄▄▀▀▀       ▀▀▀ ▄▄▀ ▄▄▀
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.
VERSACE
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
38,000 STORES are
accepting MOZO TOKENS

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June 08, 2012, 05:11:19 AM
 #96

This is something a bitcoincard wouldn't be able to do,
What makes you say that?

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June 08, 2012, 08:53:41 AM
 #97


I want to go on record in stating that I don't dislike the name because of the way it sounds or looks (in fact, I'm intrigued by the word), but  I am against naming the product such from a marketing standpoint. Unless the domain ellet.com is own by the team, of which I seriously doubt,
In German and in French, it doesnt sound appealing: Ellet Undecided

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June 08, 2012, 11:49:10 AM
 #98

Many valid questions here were never answered.
I, personally, won't hold my breath. But subscribing to this thread should be ok..

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June 08, 2012, 03:22:08 PM
 #99

Ente

Ja, glaub auch, dass das eine Ente ist Sad

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June 08, 2012, 06:06:09 PM
 #100

Ente

Ja, glaub auch, dass das eine Ente ist Sad

Die einzige Ente hier bist Du!  Smiley

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June 08, 2012, 07:04:39 PM
 #101

Ente

Ja, glaub auch, dass das eine Ente ist Sad

Die einzige Ente hier bist Du!  Smiley

It seems you are the one trying to duck those valid questions.   Wink
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June 08, 2012, 08:49:52 PM
 #102

This is something a bitcoincard wouldn't be able to do,
What makes you say that?

This from their website:
Quote
Bitcoincards only interact with the outside world (the Bitcoin system) through the radio. The card contains a chip with a low-power radio transmitter. In addition to the traditional Bitcoin system, two components are needed for the functioning of the Bitcoincard:

a gateway to ensure interaction between the card and an IP network by radio;
a server to ensure interaction between the card and the Bitcoin system.

So while the Ellet is self contained, the card isn't. Provided the answer to my question is positive - that this is indeed possible with the Ellet.

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MOZO
|||
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▀▄ █  ▀ ██▀▄▀▄▄▀▀▀▄▄▀  ▐▌█ ▀ ▄▀ ▄▀
▀▄ ▀▄▄  █ ▄▀▄▄▀▄▄▀▄▀▀▄▀▄  ▄▄▀ ▄▀
▀▄▄ ▀▄▄▀▀▀       ▀▀▀ ▄▄▀ ▄▄▀
▀▄▄ ▀▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀▀ ▄▄▀
▀▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀▀
.
VERSACE
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
38,000 STORES are
accepting MOZO TOKENS

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June 08, 2012, 08:51:48 PM
 #103

I didn't really read that as making it not possible to transfer between users, but that could be the case. Still awaiting more info.

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June 08, 2012, 09:10:27 PM
 #104

I have tried "embedded key" solutions for mobile: they just do not work for me because there is the time when I want to make a quick send and the device wants to update its block chain.

I need to wait a few seconds or minutes and that turns the user experience to really bad compared to just any other payment solutions.

IMHO, thin clients (with backend hosted keys) are the way to go mobile.

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June 08, 2012, 10:00:28 PM
 #105

This is something a bitcoincard wouldn't be able to do,
What makes you say that?

This from their website:
Quote
Bitcoincards only interact with the outside world (the Bitcoin system) through the radio. The card contains a chip with a low-power radio transmitter. In addition to the traditional Bitcoin system, two components are needed for the functioning of the Bitcoincard:

a gateway to ensure interaction between the card and an IP network by radio;
a server to ensure interaction between the card and the Bitcoin system.

So while the Ellet is self contained, the card isn't. Provided the answer to my question is positive - that this is indeed possible with the Ellet.

The bitcoin cards could both store a copy of the signed transaction and the first to connect to a gateway could broadcast it to lock it in.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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June 08, 2012, 11:10:32 PM
 #106

I have tried "embedded key" solutions for mobile: they just do not work for me because there is the time when I want to make a quick send and the device wants to update its block chain.

I need to wait a few seconds or minutes and that turns the user experience to really bad compared to just any other payment solutions.

IMHO, thin clients (with backend hosted keys) are the way to go mobile.

Exactly! This is not an issue with Ellet as it does not store the entire blockchain and uses a specially developed lite client.

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June 08, 2012, 11:50:41 PM
 #107

Subbed.

A)I believe I have missed something. I've read through 6 pages of post. I don't see anywhere where it verifies the person sending you the bitcoins actually has them. Can I make a copy of my wallet at one point in time, clone it to a second SDCARD, put it on 2 ellets and send money to 2 people? It doesn't store the blockchain. So if you are in a place with no wireless and no cellular, I can't possibly see how you can't clone your wallet and spend twice. I mean hell, someone can find a way to open one, kill the antennae, and just walk around spending a bucket load of money at say a trade convention. Lets go a step further. Find the spectrum this uses and kill it with a jammer. You could walk around all day just going "oh look, no signal here. Have 30 bucks" and disappear into the shadows.

B) As others said. The name isn't very good, but whatever. It doesn't flow if you ask me.

C) This will be hacked. Saying it can't, just makes you a bigger target. This deals with money, you already have a large mark on your back. See: iphone, onstar, etc

D) I'd say an app I can put on any phone I'm already I'm carrying in my pocket would be a huge plus. I'm not opposed to another device, depending on the size. When you carry a gun in one pocket, earbuds,gum,cellphone in another and a wallet in one back pocket, you really don't wan't to have leave an implant in the other cheek.

E) If you can get it to the right size and display the time, this would make a great watch replacement. Heck, I still might build a strap to keep it on my wrist, no worries about theft under a long shirt then.

EDIT:F) Accept credit cards. I got a square up device a bit ago. This is awesome for me when I'm at shows. Instant payment that everyone already has, especially when they don't carry around a few $100 in cash. As for the fee, I add it to their total.

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June 09, 2012, 12:17:10 AM
 #108

EDIT:F) Accept credit cards. I got a square up device a bit ago. This is awesome for me when I'm at shows. Instant payment that everyone already has, especially when they don't carry around a few $100 in cash. As for the fee, I add it to their total.

I have used Square several times to sell bitcoins to my friends, using their debit card or credit card.  the swipe plus signature will minimize the risk.  plus you know the person, so duh.


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June 09, 2012, 01:33:41 AM
 #109

EDIT:F) Accept credit cards. I got a square up device a bit ago. This is awesome for me when I'm at shows. Instant payment that everyone already has, especially when they don't carry around a few $100 in cash. As for the fee, I add it to their total.
I have used Square several times to sell bitcoins to my friends, using their debit card or credit card.  the swipe plus signature will minimize the risk.  plus you know the person, so duh.

Cheers to that. I actually like this concept for even selling locally to non friends.

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June 09, 2012, 02:43:44 AM
 #110

I don't think this is a competitor to the Bitcoincard, but a companion instead. In fact, it might behoove the developers to optimize these to facilitate both systems to work together. Bitcoincard is not a Point of Sales device. I'm sure there are more ways to integrate the systems.

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June 09, 2012, 03:33:57 AM
 #111

Subbed.

A)I believe I have missed something. I've read through 6 pages of post. I don't see anywhere where it verifies the person sending you the bitcoins actually has them. Can I make a copy of my wallet at one point in time, clone it to a second SDCARD, put it on 2 ellets and send money to 2 people? It doesn't store the blockchain. So if you are in a place with no wireless and no cellular, I can't possibly see how you can't clone your wallet and spend twice. I mean hell, someone can find a way to open one, kill the antennae, and just walk around spending a bucket load of money at say a trade convention. Lets go a step further. Find the spectrum this uses and kill it with a jammer. You could walk around all day just going "oh look, no signal here. Have 30 bucks" and disappear into the shadows.

B) As others said. The name isn't very good, but whatever. It doesn't flow if you ask me.

C) This will be hacked. Saying it can't, just makes you a bigger target. This deals with money, you already have a large mark on your back. See: iphone, onstar, etc

D) I'd say an app I can put on any phone I'm already I'm carrying in my pocket would be a huge plus. I'm not opposed to another device, depending on the size. When you carry a gun in one pocket, earbuds,gum,cellphone in another and a wallet in one back pocket, you really don't wan't to have leave an implant in the other cheek.

E) If you can get it to the right size and display the time, this would make a great watch replacement. Heck, I still might build a strap to keep it on my wrist, no worries about theft under a long shirt then.

EDIT:F) Accept credit cards. I got a square up device a bit ago. This is awesome for me when I'm at shows. Instant payment that everyone already has, especially when they don't carry around a few $100 in cash. As for the fee, I add it to their total.
As far as "A" goes you mis understand how transactions are proccesed with lite bitcoin clients. This device verifies from multiple servers to increase confidence and will output the level of confidence it has when sending,recieivng or checking balances. Something bitcoindcard dosent have the proccessing power to check for(although that is an assumption about bitcoincard specs i could be wrong)
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June 09, 2012, 06:09:49 AM
 #112

Looks like a hit! though im not so sure about 50,000 selling... theres around 56,000 members on this forum that it is being announced on and i doubt that almost 90% will buy one as would be needed...  Roll Eyes
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June 09, 2012, 06:13:11 AM
 #113

Looks like a hit! though im not so sure about 50,000 selling... theres around 56,000 members on this forum that it is being announced on and i doubt that almost 90% will buy one as would be needed...  Roll Eyes

Although this post is on a Bitcoin forum and the title says "The world's first handheld Bitcoin device", this is not in fact being marketed as a Bitcoin device to the outside world (which is arguably why it will succeed). Bitcoin is just one of many currencies usable.

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June 09, 2012, 06:18:24 AM
 #114

Looks like a hit! though im not so sure about 50,000 selling... theres around 56,000 members on this forum that it is being announced on and i doubt that almost 90% will buy one as would be needed...  Roll Eyes

Although this post is on a Bitcoin forum and the title says "The world's first handheld Bitcoin device", this is not in fact being marketed as a Bitcoin device to the outside world (which is arguably why it will succeed). Bitcoin is just one of many currencies usable.

Would you be willing to reveal more that will be usable than the 4 mentioned in the OP?
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June 09, 2012, 06:20:29 AM
 #115

Looks like a hit! though im not so sure about 50,000 selling... theres around 56,000 members on this forum that it is being announced on and i doubt that almost 90% will buy one as would be needed...  Roll Eyes

Although this post is on a Bitcoin forum and the title says "The world's first handheld Bitcoin device", this is not in fact being marketed as a Bitcoin device to the outside world (which is arguably why it will succeed). Bitcoin is just one of many currencies usable.

Would you be willing to reveal more that will be usable than the 4 mentioned in the OP?

As mentioned before, I don't want to get into technical specifics as things can change during the manufacturing process and some options and features may no longer be viable, while new ones may present themselves.

The only payment service I can absolutely guarantee will be on it will be Bitcoin. Everything else will need to wait until the formal press release. Thanks for your patience.

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June 09, 2012, 06:23:16 AM
 #116

Looks like a hit! though im not so sure about 50,000 selling... theres around 56,000 members on this forum that it is being announced on and i doubt that almost 90% will buy one as would be needed...  Roll Eyes

Although this post is on a Bitcoin forum and the title says "The world's first handheld Bitcoin device", this is not in fact being marketed as a Bitcoin device to the outside world (which is arguably why it will succeed). Bitcoin is just one of many currencies usable.

Would you be willing to reveal more that will be usable than the 4 mentioned in the OP?

As mentioned before, I don't want to get into technical specifics as things can change during the manufacturing process and some options and features may no longer be viable, while new ones may present themselves.

The only payment service I can absolutely guarantee will be on it will be Bitcoin. Everything else will need to wait until the formal press release. Thanks for your patience.

Got it, sounds like a reasonable plan.
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June 09, 2012, 07:05:18 AM
 #117

I have tried "embedded key" solutions for mobile: they just do not work for me because there is the time when I want to make a quick send and the device wants to update its block chain.

I need to wait a few seconds or minutes and that turns the user experience to really bad compared to just any other payment solutions.

IMHO, thin clients (with backend hosted keys) are the way to go mobile.

The keys do not have to be on the server for the device to be snappy. Try BitcoinSpinner for android or the Ellet once it is publicly available.

Mycelium let's you hold your private keys private.
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June 09, 2012, 07:20:56 AM
 #118

I have tried "embedded key" solutions for mobile: they just do not work for me because there is the time when I want to make a quick send and the device wants to update its block chain.

I need to wait a few seconds or minutes and that turns the user experience to really bad compared to just any other payment solutions.

IMHO, thin clients (with backend hosted keys) are the way to go mobile.

The keys do not have to be on the server for the device to be snappy. Try BitcoinSpinner for android or the Ellet once it is publicly available.

Boussac, you can also use Electrum servers.
These servers are open source, they use a open protocol called stratum, based on json.

You do not have to use the Electrum client with these servers, you can use them with your own client.
And you can run your own Electrum server.

Electrum: the convenience of a web wallet, without the risks
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June 09, 2012, 07:23:17 AM
 #119

Update: Added the following update to the first release statement.

  • Connectivity -- The Ellet can connect on the go to any mobile network around the world, no need for any additional mobile accounts, bothersome SIM cards, or the purchase of any external repeater systems. It also works on Wifi too to provide you with uninterrupted signal to suit your needs.

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June 09, 2012, 07:30:14 AM
 #120

The Ellet can connect on the go to any mobile network around the world, no need for any additional mobile accounts, bothersome SIM cards,
how do you pay for that? internet is not free you know...

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June 09, 2012, 11:47:39 AM
 #121

Subbed.

A)I believe I have missed something. I've read through 6 pages of post. I don't see anywhere where it verifies the person sending you the bitcoins actually has them. Can I make a copy of my wallet at one point in time, clone it to a second SDCARD, put it on 2 ellets and send money to 2 people? It doesn't store the blockchain. So if you are in a place with no wireless and no cellular, I can't possibly see how you can't clone your wallet and spend twice. I mean hell, someone can find a way to open one, kill the antennae, and just walk around spending a bucket load of money at say a trade convention. Lets go a step further. Find the spectrum this uses and kill it with a jammer. You could walk around all day just going "oh look, no signal here. Have 30 bucks" and disappear into the shadows.

B) As others said. The name isn't very good, but whatever. It doesn't flow if you ask me.

C) This will be hacked. Saying it can't, just makes you a bigger target. This deals with money, you already have a large mark on your back. See: iphone, onstar, etc

D) I'd say an app I can put on any phone I'm already I'm carrying in my pocket would be a huge plus. I'm not opposed to another device, depending on the size. When you carry a gun in one pocket, earbuds,gum,cellphone in another and a wallet in one back pocket, you really don't wan't to have leave an implant in the other cheek.

E) If you can get it to the right size and display the time, this would make a great watch replacement. Heck, I still might build a strap to keep it on my wrist, no worries about theft under a long shirt then.

EDIT:F) Accept credit cards. I got a square up device a bit ago. This is awesome for me when I'm at shows. Instant payment that everyone already has, especially when they don't carry around a few $100 in cash. As for the fee, I add it to their total.
As far as "A" goes you mis understand how transactions are proccesed with lite bitcoin clients. This device verifies from multiple servers to increase confidence and will output the level of confidence it has when sending,recieivng or checking balances. Something bitcoindcard dosent have the proccessing power to check for(although that is an assumption about bitcoincard specs i could be wrong)

I was very aware of how lite clients work. Which is why I need this information in order for it to all make sense:
Update: Added the following update to the first release statement.

  • Connectivity -- The Ellet can connect on the go to any mobile network around the world, no need for any additional mobile accounts, bothersome SIM cards, or the purchase of any external repeater systems. It also works on Wifi too to provide you with uninterrupted signal to suit your needs.

So without any wifi or cellular (granted hard to find today), these things won't work. It's a good thing.

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June 09, 2012, 05:56:28 PM
 #122

I skimmed this thread, and would like to know how this is better than the "smart" phone I just bought.

The only thing I see people saying is that it is smaller and thus harder to steal. If that is the only selling point it would be hard for me carry something extra that I can already do.

Thanks.

It would be more secure.  "smart" phones are super easy to turn into "out of your control" phones.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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June 09, 2012, 05:58:55 PM
 #123

Update: Added the following update to the first release statement.

  • Connectivity -- The Ellet can connect on the go to any mobile network around the world, no need for any additional mobile accounts, bothersome SIM cards, or the purchase of any external repeater systems. It also works on Wifi too to provide you with uninterrupted signal to suit your needs.
Really, do tell. If there is no SIM card, that means it can only run on CDMA to access a general purpose mobile network, and those exist almost solely in the USA, since they are old, outdated technology. The rest of the world uses GSM, which requires a SIM.

I am aware that you can access mobile networks at a significantly reduced price for "telemetry" applications that do not require E911 access, but it isn't free and still requires the presence of an identifying technology such as a SIM card or hardcoded MEID (or R-UIM cards locked to specific hardware).

So tell us: What exactly is this magical new no-cost global network, what specific technology is it based on, and how do you plan on it remaining free? I assume at this point that it is free because of your statement "no need for any additional mobile accounts".

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June 09, 2012, 06:06:04 PM
 #124

Update: Added the following update to the first release statement.

  • Connectivity -- The Ellet can connect on the go to any mobile network around the world, no need for any additional mobile accounts, bothersome SIM cards, or the purchase of any external repeater systems. It also works on Wifi too to provide you with uninterrupted signal to suit your needs.
Really, do tell. If there is no SIM card, that means it can only run on CDMA to access a general purpose mobile network, and those exist almost solely in the USA, since they are old, outdated technology. The rest of the world uses GSM, which requires a SIM.

I am aware that you can access mobile networks at a significantly reduced price for "telemetry" applications that do not require E911 access, but it isn't free and still requires the presence of an identifying technology such as a SIM card or hardcoded MEID (or R-UIM cards locked to specific hardware).

So tell us: What exactly is this magical new no-cost global network, what specific technology is it based on, and how do you plan on it remaining free? I assume at this point that it is free because of your statement "no need for any additional mobile accounts".

So, if all that is possible who is paying to track Bitcoin users wherever they go? Because that's what will happen, just like with cell phones.
Matthew, contact the DEA and you might get all the funding you need from them.

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June 09, 2012, 06:50:39 PM
 #125

Update: Added the following update to the first release statement.

  • Connectivity -- The Ellet can connect on the go to any mobile network around the world, no need for any additional mobile accounts, bothersome SIM cards, or the purchase of any external repeater systems. It also works on Wifi too to provide you with uninterrupted signal to suit your needs.
Really, do tell. If there is no SIM card, that means it can only run on CDMA to access a general purpose mobile network, and those exist almost solely in the USA, since they are old, outdated technology. The rest of the world uses GSM, which requires a SIM.

I am aware that you can access mobile networks at a significantly reduced price for "telemetry" applications that do not require E911 access, but it isn't free and still requires the presence of an identifying technology such as a SIM card or hardcoded MEID (or R-UIM cards locked to specific hardware).

So tell us: What exactly is this magical new no-cost global network, what specific technology is it based on, and how do you plan on it remaining free? I assume at this point that it is free because of your statement "no need for any additional mobile accounts".

So, if all that is possible who is paying to track Bitcoin users wherever they go? Because that's what will happen, just like with cell phones.
Matthew, contact the DEA and you might get all the funding you need from them.

I'm pretty sure using any of the cellular stuff will get make you pseudo traceable along with semi accurate positioning. However I'm no expert. This was part of the reason I was curious to the "connectivty" that was lacking before I asked about it.

Again I've only skimmed, however will this device be able to utilized VPN access? I'd think at this point that it should be taken for granted it would.

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June 10, 2012, 12:01:14 AM
 #126

I skimmed this thread, and would like to know how this is better than the "smart" phone I just bought.

The only thing I see people saying is that it is smaller and thus harder to steal. If that is the only selling point it would be hard for me carry something extra that I can already do.

Thanks.

It would be more secure.  "smart" phones are super easy to turn into "out of your control" phones.
Please go ahead and hack my phone. My number is +1 (650) 426-8720.
Yes, it contains BTC.

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June 10, 2012, 12:04:05 AM
 #127

I skimmed this thread, and would like to know how this is better than the "smart" phone I just bought.

The only thing I see people saying is that it is smaller and thus harder to steal. If that is the only selling point it would be hard for me carry something extra that I can already do.

Thanks.

It would be more secure.  "smart" phones are super easy to turn into "out of your control" phones.
Please go ahead and hack my phone. My number is +1 (650) 426-8720.
Yes, it contains BTC.


No thanks.  I don't steal, and I have enough to do this summer.  There are ways to secure your phone, but many default installs are vulnerable.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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June 10, 2012, 01:38:56 AM
 #128

I skimmed this thread, and would like to know how this is better than the "smart" phone I just bought.

The only thing I see people saying is that it is smaller and thus harder to steal. If that is the only selling point it would be hard for me carry something extra that I can already do.

Thanks.

It would be more secure.  "smart" phones are super easy to turn into "out of your control" phones.
Please go ahead and hack my phone. My number is +1 (650) 426-8720.
Yes, it contains BTC.


i think he was referring more to what backdoors carriers have installed.  whats that program;  Carrier IQ?
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June 10, 2012, 04:14:49 AM
 #129

I like gadgets and it is only $30.

mhm.

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June 10, 2012, 07:27:58 AM
 #130

Problem is not *your* phone getting hacked but some bitcoin price widget that is installed on millions of phones turn into a bitcoin steal widget sending all the money from all those phones home.

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June 10, 2012, 09:14:51 AM
 #131

I have tried "embedded key" solutions for mobile: they just do not work for me because there is the time when I want to make a quick send and the device wants to update its block chain.

I need to wait a few seconds or minutes and that turns the user experience to really bad compared to just any other payment solutions.

IMHO, thin clients (with backend hosted keys) are the way to go mobile.

The keys do not have to be on the server for the device to be snappy. Try BitcoinSpinner for android or the Ellet once it is publicly available.

Sorry, I have tried Bitcoinspinner extensively and it is not always snappy..

It will never be as fast as a thin client like paytunia because a thin client does not need to update a local chain.

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June 10, 2012, 01:42:27 PM
 #132

Problem is not *your* phone getting hacked but some bitcoin price widget that is installed on millions of phones turn into a bitcoin steal widget sending all the money from all those phones home.

If I'm not mistaken, Android applications are sandboxed and do not have access to other applications private data.

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June 10, 2012, 01:46:09 PM
 #133

Problem is not *your* phone getting hacked but some bitcoin price widget that is installed on millions of phones turn into a bitcoin steal widget sending all the money from all those phones home.

If I'm not mistaken, Android applications are sandboxed and do not have access to other applications private data.

good point.

makes me wonder why their even is an anti-virus built into android then....
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June 10, 2012, 01:46:31 PM
 #134

Problem is not *your* phone getting hacked but some bitcoin price widget that is installed on millions of phones turn into a bitcoin steal widget sending all the money from all those phones home.

If I'm not mistaken, Android applications are sandboxed and do not have access to other applications private data.

good point.
sandbox can be broken, app could have "Chernobyl"-permissions. shit could happen...

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June 10, 2012, 01:49:46 PM
 #135

Jeez, you guys are really criticizing this pre-announcement. You haven't even given the "backers" a chance to postpone the actual announcement.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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June 10, 2012, 02:07:12 PM
 #136

Putting something like this in a watch is very interesting idea indeed.

Subbed.

A)I believe I have missed something. I've read through 6 pages of post. I don't see anywhere where it verifies the person sending you the bitcoins actually has them. Can I make a copy of my wallet at one point in time, clone it to a second SDCARD, put it on 2 ellets and send money to 2 people? It doesn't store the blockchain. So if you are in a place with no wireless and no cellular, I can't possibly see how you can't clone your wallet and spend twice. I mean hell, someone can find a way to open one, kill the antennae, and just walk around spending a bucket load of money at say a trade convention. Lets go a step further. Find the spectrum this uses and kill it with a jammer. You could walk around all day just going "oh look, no signal here. Have 30 bucks" and disappear into the shadows.

B) As others said. The name isn't very good, but whatever. It doesn't flow if you ask me.

C) This will be hacked. Saying it can't, just makes you a bigger target. This deals with money, you already have a large mark on your back. See: iphone, onstar, etc

D) I'd say an app I can put on any phone I'm already I'm carrying in my pocket would be a huge plus. I'm not opposed to another device, depending on the size. When you carry a gun in one pocket, earbuds,gum,cellphone in another and a wallet in one back pocket, you really don't wan't to have leave an implant in the other cheek.

E) If you can get it to the right size and display the time, this would make a great watch replacement. Heck, I still might build a strap to keep it on my wrist, no worries about theft under a long shirt then.

EDIT:F) Accept credit cards. I got a square up device a bit ago. This is awesome for me when I'm at shows. Instant payment that everyone already has, especially when they don't carry around a few $100 in cash. As for the fee, I add it to their total.
As far as "A" goes you mis understand how transactions are proccesed with lite bitcoin clients. This device verifies from multiple servers to increase confidence and will output the level of confidence it has when sending,recieivng or checking balances. Something bitcoindcard dosent have the proccessing power to check for(although that is an assumption about bitcoincard specs i could be wrong)

I was very aware of how lite clients work. Which is why I need this information in order for it to all make sense:
Update: Added the following update to the first release statement.

  • Connectivity -- The Ellet can connect on the go to any mobile network around the world, no need for any additional mobile accounts, bothersome SIM cards, or the purchase of any external repeater systems. It also works on Wifi too to provide you with uninterrupted signal to suit your needs.

So without any wifi or cellular (granted hard to find today), these things won't work. It's a good thing.

more or less retired.
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June 10, 2012, 02:12:15 PM
 #137

Indeed, my $30 has already been spent on this.

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June 10, 2012, 07:16:50 PM
 #138

Is this device real?

Elletsys.com won't load. Kickstarter finds nothing when searching or Ellet. Anybody know the creators?

Hardfork aren't that hard.
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June 11, 2012, 02:07:59 AM
 #139

Is this device real?

Elletsys.com won't load. Kickstarter finds nothing when searching or Ellet. Anybody know the creators?
I'm not at liberty to say  Cool
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June 11, 2012, 11:45:39 AM
 #140

Sorry, I have tried Bitcoinspinner extensively and it is not always snappy..

It will never be as fast as a thin client like paytunia because a thin client does not need to update a local chain.
This is off topic but I don't know what you're talking about. BitcoinSpinner is a thin client, it doesn't have a local blockchain. It uses a server to handle the blockchain. Private keys are stored on the device, the neat thing is that it doesn't require any registration.

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June 11, 2012, 01:06:49 PM
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I don't understand how this device will connect to the network without SIM.
I also don't understand how this could work globally.

Anyway, wish you good luck with this project!
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June 11, 2012, 01:29:20 PM
 #142

Is this device real?

Elletsys.com won't load. Kickstarter finds nothing when searching or Ellet. Anybody know the creators?
Should of read the first post better. Its not on kickstarter yet it will be soon. If you mouse over elletsys.com you can see that <elletsys.com> is the text they put over for the link(like saying click <here>), it actually leads to a reddit page. Its not even a redirect.
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June 11, 2012, 02:04:14 PM
 #143

Is this device real?

Elletsys.com won't load. Kickstarter finds nothing when searching or Ellet. Anybody know the creators?
Should of read the first post better. Its not on kickstarter yet it will be soon. If you mouse over elletsys.com you can see that <elletsys.com> is the text they put over for the link(like saying click <here>), it actually leads to a reddit page. Its not even a redirect.

That's correct. KickStarter is a final stage and more or less for presentation and sales channels only. Going on KickStarter too early in the game is a huge risk to losing investors.

ElletSys.com is still being developed. In the meantime, you can follow the reddit and discuss relevant topics there.

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June 11, 2012, 02:07:58 PM
 #144

Is this device real?

Elletsys.com won't load. Kickstarter finds nothing when searching or Ellet. Anybody know the creators?
Should of read the first post better. Its not on kickstarter yet it will be soon. If you mouse over elletsys.com you can see that <elletsys.com> is the text they put over for the link(like saying click <here>), it actually leads to a reddit page. Its not even a redirect.

That's correct. KickStarter is a final stage and more or less for presentation and sales channels only. Going on KickStarter too early in the game is a huge risk to losing investors.

ElletSys.com is still being developed. In the meantime, you can follow the reddit and discuss relevant topics there.

So, once again here you are presenting vapourware.
You should've learnt your lesson with the magazine.
You should also learn not to accuse other of presenting vapourware when you do exactly the same the thing.

You're a great guy Matthew, but you should learn to deal with competition a little better. The way you deal with it doesn't put you in a good light.

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June 11, 2012, 02:17:21 PM
 #145

So, once again here you are presenting vapourware.
You lost me here. Are you referring to the website itself which I didn't link to or the actual product which has already been built?

You should've learnt your lesson with the magazine.
Funny you mention that. Making the first issue of the Bitcoin magazine was a very humbling experience. Despite the constant trolling from the community, I did exactly what I set out to do and everything came together nicely. In fact, when it was finally received by the first readers it received more upvotes on Reddit than any post I've ever seen on /r/Bitcoin  Cheesy. I think although there were many skills learned during the development days of the magazine, the community is the one who needed to learn a lesson from that one.

You should also learn not to accuse other of presenting vapourware when you do exactly the same the thing.

Quote
Vaporware is a term in the computer industry that describes a product, typically computer hardware or software, that is announced to the general public but is never actually released nor officially canceled.

You lost me again. Ellet is hardly vaporware. Please state your points and evidence if you expect a response.

You're a great guy Matthew, but you should learn to deal with competition a little better. The way you deal with it doesn't put you in a good light.

I appreciate the words of advice and I'll mull them over, however I think yourself included, many people here jump to conclusions as to the reasoning behind things far too easily. Bitcoinica hacked? "IT WAS ZHOUTONG!" Magazine late? "IT WAS A SCAM!"

I will gladly take the advice of the community but offer the advice of having some patience as well. I'm working on resolving the issues with ElletSys.com as we speak.

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June 11, 2012, 02:19:51 PM
 #146

Only you say that the device exists and was already built...
Why should I or anyone else believe in you?

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June 11, 2012, 02:22:50 PM
 #147

Only you say that the device exists and was already built...
Why should I or anyone else believe in you?

Don't believe me then.

When the videos and photos come out this week too, don't believe them.

When it's announced that 50,000 units are manufactured, don't believe it then either.

When your friends are holding it in their hands and using it on a daily basis, don't believe it then either.

I don't know what you want me to say. I cannot be your babysitter in life.

I exist here in ElletSys to be useful, create interesting services, products and technologies, and to support it with all that I know.

If you're judging me on my presentation, you're probably being thrown off by the fact that in the past I am well known for having fun while doing my job. I'm not going to change that just so a handful of detractors will have less FUD to spread.

If you're judging me on my attacks of other supposed hardware that makes claims that not even Apple would make, then you are wasting your time with me because there are much more prominent figures with much deeper pockets who will say the same thing upon learning of their claims.

Have some patience, argue your points with evidence, do whatever you like. It doesn't change anything.

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June 11, 2012, 02:31:32 PM
 #148


If you're judging me on my attacks of other supposed hardware that makes claims that not even Apple would make, then you are wasting your time with me because there are much more prominent figures with much deeper pockets who will say the same thing upon learning of their claims.

What would happen to your plans for the Ellet should the claims regarding the Bitcoincard turn out to be true?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 11, 2012, 02:38:17 PM
 #149


If you're judging me on my attacks of other supposed hardware that makes claims that not even Apple would make, then you are wasting your time with me because there are much more prominent figures with much deeper pockets who will say the same thing upon learning of their claims.

What would happen to your plans for the Ellet should the claims regarding the Bitcoincard turn out to be true?

Personally speaking, I'd be so excited for them for actually creating new technology that billions in technology investments across the world could not put together. It would be revolutionary.

Officially, It wouldn't affect the Ellet at all as the Ellet is intended to be a functional payment device capable of handling -all- relevant payment methods, utilize the infinite amount of existing infrastructure out there, and provide a marketable form factor and feature set that will bring non-bitcoiners into Bitcoin. Bitcoincard seems to be a nerds toy (no offense) with little to no chance of any kind of adoption in a real world environment. Also, given it's supposed form factor, it is more in competition with Casascius coins than the Ellet.

Yifu is also making a secure tablet for Bitcoin transactions. We have discussed this before several times, that neither of us are in competition with each other either as we offer completely different tools for completely different purposes.

The comments on some threads from some detractors that I'm "scared" of bitcoincard is just not true. I was hopeful, but then did my homework. The claims that I'm "bothered" by it are very true. As I was mentioning on IRC, it always bothers me when vaporware takes center stage over similar new technologies with actual working models. It's just a lesson to future scammers that deceptive marketing and flashy gadgets are apparently the only thing that gets bitcoiners' attention.

I as much as anyone else cannot wait much longer for the official Ellet announcement with all the proof everyone is looking for. It's on the top of my priorities now that the magazine is moderately self-sustaining.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61017.msg711305#msg711305
I'm glad you printed a magazine, but I think the businesses that paid you for advertising were expecting a little more circulation than a few dozen copies. I have heard nothing more of your plans to get Bitcoin Magazine distributed. I want to believe you, but you juggle so many things without following through that it is hard to see where you are going with your businesses.

This post as well as yours will surely be deleted shortly as they are completely off-topic but I do feel it deserves a response of some sort. The magazine advertisers were in contact with us the entire time. You do not give us much credit for resolving issues and like most in the community assume way too much.

The plans to make a magazine in the first place were mine, but once you have a Board of Directors with experience in distribution, infrastructure, security, etc, you lose your ability to discuss every intimate detail with the open public. I promised that I'd keep the community involved in the direction and content of the magazine, but no one said I had to make it easy for competitors to compete.  Wink

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June 11, 2012, 02:40:40 PM
 #150


If you're judging me on my attacks of other supposed hardware that makes claims that not even Apple would make, then you are wasting your time with me because there are much more prominent figures with much deeper pockets who will say the same thing upon learning of their claims.

What would happen to your plans for the Ellet should the claims regarding the Bitcoincard turn out to be true?

Hence the rushed up announcement on his part... The Bitcoincard workshop was coming and he needed to build some hype for his own vapourware as a way to try and fade out the hype for the Bitcoincard vapourware.
I wasn't going to say anything, but after seeing him attacking BitcoinCard, while doing exactly the same thing with this Ellet, didn't felt quite right to me.

PS: I think any kind of Bitcoin wallet with an included tracking system sucks, so, that includes the Bitcoincard and the Ellet.
You won't see me buying any, that's for sure. My cell phone is enough, thank you.

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June 11, 2012, 02:49:45 PM
 #151

...
What would happen to your plans for the Ellet should the claims regarding the Bitcoincard turn out to be true?

Hence the rushed up announcement on his part... The Bitcoincard workshop was coming and he needed to build some hype for his own vapourware as a way to try and fade out the hype for the Bitcoincard vapourware.
I wasn't going to say anything, but after seeing him attacking BitcoinCard, while doing exactly the same thing with this Ellet, didn't felt quite right to me.

But the big difference is that this bitcoincard can be seen on images and videos, while this mnw vaporware seems to exists only mnws imagination. And that seems to make it necessary for mnw to constantly spreading FUD in the bitcoincard thread.
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June 11, 2012, 02:51:49 PM
 #152

I can see that this is just a baiting trolls at this point and will post again here only when there is an update worth sharing with the community. Blatant slander, baseless accusations and further FUD based on individual's opinions of what they think I'm doing will be completely ignored and removed if off-topic.

Thanks!

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June 11, 2012, 02:58:27 PM
 #153

Officially, It wouldn't affect the Ellet at all as the Ellet is intended to be a functional payment device capable of handling -all- relevant payment methods, utilize the infinite amount of existing infrastructure out there, and provide a marketable form factor and feature set that will bring non-bitcoiners into Bitcoin. Bitcoincard seems to be a nerds toy (no offense) with little to no chance of any kind of adoption in a real world environment. Also, given it's supposed form factor, it is more in competition with Casascius coins than the Ellet.

I can agree that your devices don't seem to be in quite the same market, but you do appear to be threatened by their claims.  Would the Ellet be capable of updating it's core software, if the Bitcoincard became the dominate system for bitcoin transactions offline?  Said another way, would the Ellet be able to talk the Bitcoincard protocol.  That's the real question.

Quote

The comments on some threads from some detractors that I'm "scared" of bitcoincard is just not true. I was hopeful, but then did my homework. The claims that I'm "bothered" by it are very true. As I was mentioning on IRC, it always bothers me when vaporware takes center stage over similar new technologies with actual working models. It's just a lesson to future scammers that deceptive marketing and flashy gadgets are apparently the only thing that gets bitcoiners' attention.

But that is the problem, I've actual photos of Bitcoincards.  Granted, still photos can be faked; but I have nothing at all from you concerning the Ellet.  From my perspectives, it's the Ellet that is vaporware.  At a minimum, the Bitcoincard guys have working test models.  I saw a youtube video of two such cards (sitting less than a foot from each other, mind you) perform a transaction on video.  A transaction that can be verified via the bitcoin blockchain.  If the bitcoincard is vaporware, the fog is getting pretty thick.


"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 11, 2012, 02:58:50 PM
 #154

I can see that this is just a baiting trolls at this point and will post again here only when there is an update worth sharing with the community. Blatant slander, baseless accusations and further FUD based on individual's opinions of what they think I'm doing will be completely ignored and removed if off-topic.

Thanks!

Just do as I say, Don't do as I do.

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June 11, 2012, 03:15:34 PM
 #155

Officially, It wouldn't affect the Ellet at all as the Ellet is intended to be a functional payment device capable of handling -all- relevant payment methods, utilize the infinite amount of existing infrastructure out there, and provide a marketable form factor and feature set that will bring non-bitcoiners into Bitcoin. Bitcoincard seems to be a nerds toy (no offense) with little to no chance of any kind of adoption in a real world environment. Also, given it's supposed form factor, it is more in competition with Casascius coins than the Ellet.

I can agree that your devices don't seem to be in quite the same market, but you do appear to be threatened by their claims.
Not threatened, annoyed by vaporware. Call it overjoy that made me want to announce without a photo, but anyone trying to convince the baker that he isn't baking a cake just because they aren't eating it yet is only going to receive puzzled looks from the baker. If however that baker claims he is baking a cake larger than the oven itself, then you can make some claims and ask some questions (which is what I've been doing to the bitcoincard).

would the Ellet be able to talk the Bitcoincard protocol.  That's the real question.
I don't see how anything standard would be able to talk to that non-standard device. I guess we could go out of our way to add specific hardware to our device that would allow it to talk to bitcoincard, but I don't see any company would do that that didn't have a contract directly with the other company. Put in other words, do iPhones have built in receivers for ham radio?

But that is the problem, I've actual photos of Bitcoincards.  Granted, still photos can be faked; but I have nothing at all from you concerning the Ellet.
Fair enough. Come back when there are photos. Until then, (advice to others) do not embarrass yourselves again with calling things fake just because of who is developing them. When this comes out and I move on to my next project, is the point going to get across then that I'm serious about what I do and all you need do is wait?

From my perspectives, it's the Ellet that is vaporware.  At a minimum, the Bitcoincard guys have working test models.
You believe this?

I saw a youtube video of two such cards (sitting less than a foot from each other, mind you) perform a transaction on video. A transaction that can be verified via the bitcoin blockchain.

I'm having trouble finding any videos other than the one on Vimeo which shows only one device, highly cropped/edited, all timing between transactions obfuscated, no actual provable process, with a laptop that more than likely sent the coins from the client to itself from another computer to simulate the process. I can be skeptical too, but apparently my reasons for being skeptical are the most logical. No photos does not make something vaporware. Fake videos and inviting investors to a 'secret meeting' screams vaporware imho.

I'll be posting later in the week with more information to parties interested in the Ellet. We've made another change to the form factor that I'm sure will assist in its marketability to non-bitcoiners.

Thanks for following!

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June 11, 2012, 03:31:16 PM
 #156

But that is the problem, I've actual photos of Bitcoincards.  Granted, still photos can be faked; but I have nothing at all from you concerning the Ellet.
Fair enough. Come back when there are photos. Until then, (advice to others) do not embarrass yourselves again with calling things fake just because of who is developing them. When this comes out and I move on to my next project, is the point going to get across then that I'm serious about what I do and all you need do is wait?
http://blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2012/6/8/bitcoincard-in-vienna-day-1-coffee-missing-atms-and-some-tes.html
But of course, this is a conspiracy of Gavin, Charly, Erik, Armir and all other bitcoin celebrities against you.
And I am pretty sure that Bitcoin magazine in those pictures is also faked, or at least an unlicensed reprint Wink

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June 11, 2012, 03:41:51 PM
 #157

sub.  why is there no way to subscribe to threads without posting?  fix this forum please.

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June 11, 2012, 04:00:01 PM
 #158

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61017.msg711305#msg711305
I'm glad you printed a magazine, but I think the businesses that paid you for advertising were expecting a little more circulation than a few dozen copies. I have heard nothing more of your plans to get Bitcoin Magazine distributed. I want to believe you, but you juggle so many things without following through that it is hard to see where you are going with your businesses.

This post as well as yours will surely be deleted shortly as they are completely off-topic but I do feel it deserves a response of some sort. The magazine advertisers were in contact with us the entire time. You do not give us much credit for resolving issues and like most in the community assume way too much.

The plans to make a magazine in the first place were mine, but once you have a Board of Directors with experience in distribution, infrastructure, security, etc, you lose your ability to discuss every intimate detail with the open public. I promised that I'd keep the community involved in the direction and content of the magazine, but no one said I had to make it easy for competitors to compete.  Wink
[/quote]

I know we're off topic, but your initial magazine announcement did claim distribution through Barnes & Noble.  When will I be able to pick up a copy at my local store?  I almost bought some advertising space because of this claim and I'd be pissed if I had.  Maybe "the community" is not the only one who needed to learn.  In the past you have overpromised and underdelivered.  I hope you have learned from these errors.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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June 11, 2012, 04:04:08 PM
 #159

I know we're off topic, but your initial magazine announcement did claim distribution through Barnes & Noble.  When will I be able to pick up a copy at my local store?  I almost bought some advertising space because of this claim and I'd be pissed if I had.  Maybe "the community" is not the only one who needed to learn.  In the past you have overpromised and underdelivered.  I hope you have learned from these errors.

Thank you for your constructive criticism. We're still working through the long process of being distributed in Barnes & Noble. As was mentioned, the review period is up to 3 months after the first issue is printed. They are already reviewing it and I am in regular talks with the distribution manager for Barnes & Noble's accounts.  The reason nothing is announced is that there is nothing to announce yet. Thank you for the kind words though. We're all looking forward to the already internationally available magazine to be distributed in bookstores as well, even at an almost guaranteed loss to gain exposure to Bitcoin and continue doing our duty. Appreciate the support as always!

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June 11, 2012, 04:06:04 PM
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I know we're off topic, but your initial magazine announcement did claim distribution through Barnes & Noble.  When will I be able to pick up a copy at my local store?  I almost bought some advertising space because of this claim and I'd be pissed if I had.  Maybe "the community" is not the only one who needed to learn.  In the past you have overpromised and underdelivered.  I hope you have learned from these errors.

Thank you for your constructive criticism. We're still working through the long process of being distributed in Barnes & Noble. As was mentioned, the review period is up to 3 months after the first issue is printed. They are already reviewing it and I am in regular talks with the distribution manager for Barnes & Noble's accounts.  The reason nothing is announced is that there is nothing to announce yet. Thank you for the kind words though. We're all looking forward to the already internationally available magazine to be distributed in bookstores as well, even at an almost guaranteed loss to gain exposure to Bitcoin and continue doing our duty. Appreciate the support as always!

Good to hear... now get back to work on the Ellet!

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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June 11, 2012, 04:09:58 PM
 #161

Officially, It wouldn't affect the Ellet at all as the Ellet is intended to be a functional payment device capable of handling -all- relevant payment methods, utilize the infinite amount of existing infrastructure out there, and provide a marketable form factor and feature set that will bring non-bitcoiners into Bitcoin. Bitcoincard seems to be a nerds toy (no offense) with little to no chance of any kind of adoption in a real world environment. Also, given it's supposed form factor, it is more in competition with Casascius coins than the Ellet.

I can agree that your devices don't seem to be in quite the same market, but you do appear to be threatened by their claims.
Not threatened, annoyed by vaporware. Call it overjoy that made me want to announce without a photo, but anyone trying to convince the baker that he isn't baking a cake just because they aren't eating it yet is only going to receive puzzled looks from the baker. If however that baker claims he is baking a cake larger than the oven itself, then you can make some claims and ask some questions (which is what I've been doing to the bitcoincard).

would the Ellet be able to talk the Bitcoincard protocol.  That's the real question.
I don't see how anything standard would be able to talk to that non-standard device. I guess we could go out of our way to add specific hardware to our device that would allow it to talk to bitcoincard, but I don't see any company would do that that didn't have a contract directly with the other company. Put in other words, do iPhones have built in receivers for ham radio?


Technically, yes they do.  A standard wifi chip is capable of transmitting & receiving in the nearby ham band (I beleive 70cm band IIRC) and use of these features require a ham callsign to be transmitted with the SSID.  There are two channels available, and are traditionally called Zero and -1, since they are on that side of the unlicensed wifi band.  Unlockling these capabilities, at a minumum requires rooting your phone, though.  In the ham world, this is commonly called the 'Hinternet'.  Google is your friend.

Quote
From my perspectives, it's the Ellet that is vaporware.  At a minimum, the Bitcoincard guys have working test models.
You believe this?

I believe that if it's a hoax, it's an elaborate one.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 11, 2012, 04:39:51 PM
 #162

Quote
Quote
would the Ellet be able to talk the Bitcoincard protocol.  That's the real question.
I don't see how anything standard would be able to talk to that non-standard device. I guess we could go out of our way to add specific hardware to our device that would allow it to talk to bitcoincard, but I don't see any company would do that that didn't have a contract directly with the other company. Put in other words, do iPhones have built in receivers for ham radio?


Technically, yes they do.  A standard wifi chip is capable of transmitting & receiving in the nearby ham band (I beleive 70cm band IIRC) and use of these features require a ham callsign to be transmitted with the SSID.  There are two channels available, and are traditionally called Zero and -1, since they are on that side of the unlicensed wifi band.  Unlockling these capabilities, at a minumum requires rooting your phone, though.  In the ham world, this is commonly called the 'Hinternet'.  Google is your friend.
I have found nothing on google about "iphone" and "hinternet" Sad

Also, the FCC doesn't allow encryption.  I know the standard bitcoin protocol doesn't use encryption, but does the ellet's use of the electrum protocol?

Now I really want to get out my HAM equipment.

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June 11, 2012, 06:17:25 PM
 #163

'Ellet' is kind of wonky.
Share, 'share.io'
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PENID - Personal Electronic Network Input/Output Device
PEBc - Prounounced 'peb-see' is the Personal Electronic Bitcoin Client
EMTY - Electronic Money Transaction Yeller
PEANT - Prounounced 'pee-nut' Personal Electronic Accounting with Network Transactions
DICC - Digital Interactive Currency Client 'How big is your DICC?' 'Even the Queen has a DICC.' 'Do you have a savings? No, I've been pissing it away.' 'Did you send the money? It's coming.'

How will the device fair when sloshing around in my pocket with the rest of my change?

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If BTC became the global currency & money supply = 100 Trillion then ⊅1.00 BTC = $4,761,904.76.
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June 11, 2012, 06:22:26 PM
 #164

Quote
Quote
would the Ellet be able to talk the Bitcoincard protocol.  That's the real question.
I don't see how anything standard would be able to talk to that non-standard device. I guess we could go out of our way to add specific hardware to our device that would allow it to talk to bitcoincard, but I don't see any company would do that that didn't have a contract directly with the other company. Put in other words, do iPhones have built in receivers for ham radio?


Technically, yes they do.  A standard wifi chip is capable of transmitting & receiving in the nearby ham band (I beleive 70cm band IIRC) and use of these features require a ham callsign to be transmitted with the SSID.  There are two channels available, and are traditionally called Zero and -1, since they are on that side of the unlicensed wifi band.  Unlockling these capabilities, at a minumum requires rooting your phone, though.  In the ham world, this is commonly called the 'Hinternet'.  Google is your friend.
I have found nothing on google about "iphone" and "hinternet" Sad

Also, the FCC doesn't allow encryption.  I know the standard bitcoin protocol doesn't use encryption, but does the ellet's use of the electrum protocol?

Now I really want to get out my HAM equipment.

I'm interested in see facts about the FCC not allowing encryption.
Also How would they prove the "static" they are hearing is encrypted code awaiting to be decrypted?
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June 11, 2012, 06:26:43 PM
 #165

Quote
Quote
would the Ellet be able to talk the Bitcoincard protocol.  That's the real question.
I don't see how anything standard would be able to talk to that non-standard device. I guess we could go out of our way to add specific hardware to our device that would allow it to talk to bitcoincard, but I don't see any company would do that that didn't have a contract directly with the other company. Put in other words, do iPhones have built in receivers for ham radio?


Technically, yes they do.  A standard wifi chip is capable of transmitting & receiving in the nearby ham band (I beleive 70cm band IIRC) and use of these features require a ham callsign to be transmitted with the SSID.  There are two channels available, and are traditionally called Zero and -1, since they are on that side of the unlicensed wifi band.  Unlockling these capabilities, at a minumum requires rooting your phone, though.  In the ham world, this is commonly called the 'Hinternet'.  Google is your friend.
I have found nothing on google about "iphone" and "hinternet" Sad

Also, the FCC doesn't allow encryption.  I know the standard bitcoin protocol doesn't use encryption, but does the ellet's use of the electrum protocol?

Now I really want to get out my HAM equipment.

I'm interested in see facts about the FCC not allowing encryption.
Also How would they prove the "static" they are hearing is encrypted code awaiting to be decrypted?
i think you would still be able to hear 1&0's. it would not be static.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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June 11, 2012, 06:32:29 PM
 #166

Quote
Quote
would the Ellet be able to talk the Bitcoincard protocol.  That's the real question.
I don't see how anything standard would be able to talk to that non-standard device. I guess we could go out of our way to add specific hardware to our device that would allow it to talk to bitcoincard, but I don't see any company would do that that didn't have a contract directly with the other company. Put in other words, do iPhones have built in receivers for ham radio?


Technically, yes they do.  A standard wifi chip is capable of transmitting & receiving in the nearby ham band (I beleive 70cm band IIRC) and use of these features require a ham callsign to be transmitted with the SSID.  There are two channels available, and are traditionally called Zero and -1, since they are on that side of the unlicensed wifi band.  Unlockling these capabilities, at a minumum requires rooting your phone, though.  In the ham world, this is commonly called the 'Hinternet'.  Google is your friend.
I have found nothing on google about "iphone" and "hinternet" Sad

Also, the FCC doesn't allow encryption.  I know the standard bitcoin protocol doesn't use encryption, but does the ellet's use of the electrum protocol?

Now I really want to get out my HAM equipment.

I'm interested in see facts about the FCC not allowing encryption.
Also How would they prove the "static" they are hearing is encrypted code awaiting to be decrypted?
i think you would still be able to hear 1&0's. it would not be static.

Depends if you sent the values in analog or digital format Wink
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June 11, 2012, 06:36:52 PM
 #167

Quote
Quote
would the Ellet be able to talk the Bitcoincard protocol.  That's the real question.
I don't see how anything standard would be able to talk to that non-standard device. I guess we could go out of our way to add specific hardware to our device that would allow it to talk to bitcoincard, but I don't see any company would do that that didn't have a contract directly with the other company. Put in other words, do iPhones have built in receivers for ham radio?


Technically, yes they do.  A standard wifi chip is capable of transmitting & receiving in the nearby ham band (I beleive 70cm band IIRC) and use of these features require a ham callsign to be transmitted with the SSID.  There are two channels available, and are traditionally called Zero and -1, since they are on that side of the unlicensed wifi band.  Unlockling these capabilities, at a minumum requires rooting your phone, though.  In the ham world, this is commonly called the 'Hinternet'.  Google is your friend.
I have found nothing on google about "iphone" and "hinternet" Sad

Also, the FCC doesn't allow encryption.  I know the standard bitcoin protocol doesn't use encryption, but does the ellet's use of the electrum protocol?

Now I really want to get out my HAM equipment.

I'm interested in see facts about the FCC not allowing encryption.
Also How would they prove the "static" they are hearing is encrypted code awaiting to be decrypted?
i think you would still be able to hear 1&0's. it would not be static.

Depends if you sent the values in analog or digital format Wink
true, but not if its encrypted. encrypted means digital.
if your gonna obfuscate analog signals, its called scrambling. Wink

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June 11, 2012, 06:53:20 PM
 #168

Quote
Quote
would the Ellet be able to talk the Bitcoincard protocol.  That's the real question.
I don't see how anything standard would be able to talk to that non-standard device. I guess we could go out of our way to add specific hardware to our device that would allow it to talk to bitcoincard, but I don't see any company would do that that didn't have a contract directly with the other company. Put in other words, do iPhones have built in receivers for ham radio?


Technically, yes they do.  A standard wifi chip is capable of transmitting & receiving in the nearby ham band (I beleive 70cm band IIRC) and use of these features require a ham callsign to be transmitted with the SSID.  There are two channels available, and are traditionally called Zero and -1, since they are on that side of the unlicensed wifi band.  Unlockling these capabilities, at a minumum requires rooting your phone, though.  In the ham world, this is commonly called the 'Hinternet'.  Google is your friend.
I have found nothing on google about "iphone" and "hinternet" Sad

Also, the FCC doesn't allow encryption.  I know the standard bitcoin protocol doesn't use encryption, but does the ellet's use of the electrum protocol?

Now I really want to get out my HAM equipment.

I'm interested in see facts about the FCC not allowing encryption.
Also How would they prove the "static" they are hearing is encrypted code awaiting to be decrypted?
i think you would still be able to hear 1&0's. it would not be static.

Depends if you sent the values in analog or digital format Wink
true, but not if its encrypted. encrypted means digital.
if your gonna obfuscate analog signals, its called scrambling. Wink
I was under the impression scrambling is just a measure to prevent anyone from just "listening in" by turning on their ham radio--I'm talking about the following

Digital Represented values are encrypted into a Digital format by a key the receiver already knows.
The digital encrypted message is converted into analog values that are represented by a key table that the receiver already knows.
Now the sender broadcasts the message in analog(sound/light spectrum) but it isn't represented with two values, instead it is represented by the whole analog spectrum.
The receiver decodes the analog signal with a key table... Then decrypts the signal into digital represented values.

Im not sure what my "theory" would make the broadcast sound like to a listener but at least it doesn't sound like off and on ticks and thus the FCC would get a signal but it would be static... so the FCC could prove a signal is coming from somewhere but not know why they are broadcasting static Tongue (of course im still assuming my broadcast would sound like static or weird noises of some sort... makes me want to try it out...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrambler
Wikipedia gives me the impression scrambling is just packets of analog signals moved in different positions in the timeline where the reciever has a decoder that buffers packets and then puts them in the correct order for play back.

I'm interested in your opinion because you seem to know what your talking about.
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June 11, 2012, 07:08:32 PM
 #169


I was under the impression scrambling is just a measure to prevent anyone from just "listening in" by turning on their ham radio--I'm talking about the following

Digital Represented values are encrypted into a Digital format by a key the receiver already knows.
The digital encrypted message is converted into analog values that are represented by a key table that the receiver already knows.
Now the sender broadcasts the message in analog(sound/light spectrum) but it isn't represented with two values, instead it is represented by the whole analog spectrum.
The receiver decodes the analog signal with a key table... Then decrypts the signal into digital represented values.

Im not sure what my "theory" would make the broadcast sound like to a listener but at least it doesn't sound like off and on ticks and thus the FCC would get a signal but it would be static... so the FCC could prove a signal is coming from somewhere but not know why they are broadcasting static Tongue (of course im still assuming my broadcast would sound like static or weird noises of some sort... makes me want to try it out...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrambler
Wikipedia gives me the impression scrambling is just packets of analog signals moved in different positions in the timeline where the reciever has a decoder that buffers packets and then puts them in the correct order for play back.

I'm interested in your opinion because you seem to know what your talking about.
i don't think you can do that losslessly. there needs to be some kind of binary system in it, so you can make it digital again.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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June 11, 2012, 07:32:21 PM
 #170

Very cool idea!  We're looking forward to trying one out.  Sorry if this has already been covered, but when do you expect you'll be able to deliver these?
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June 11, 2012, 07:41:00 PM
 #171

I'm just going to briefly jump into this thread to correct some misinformation about amateur radio (ham radio):

1) the international governing organisation is IARU; not FCC

2) FCC is an obsession of the American radio amateurs. The reason for this is that historically most American hams held radio-operator positions in some military service. Most importantly they bring with them paranoia and indoctrination prevalent in the American military.

3) It is a violation of the amateur radio rules to transmit radio signals that require some secret to interpret.

4) Bitcoin uses cryptography for signatures, not for encryption. All information required to understand the transmissions is public.

5) Amateur radio actively encourages experimentation with the following disclaimers:

5a) don't interfere with other radio users
5b) identify your transmission in a way that can be discerned by ear by an ordinarily skilled radio operator using oridinary equipment
5c) publish all the technical information required to demodulate your experimental transmissions
5d) maintain (for about a year) the original text,voice,video,whatever used in your experimental transmissions and be ready to submit them to the licensing authorities
5e) there are additional restrictions on use of high power or wideband transmitters.

The rule 5b) means that every about an hour you have to transmit your callsign using Morse code or one of the classical audio modulations. In case of digital radio the Morse code doesn't have to be transmitted using unmodulated carrier (CW). It is sufficient to alter the parameters of your digital modulation in such a way that when listened on the audio the operator can by ear discern those changes and understand them as Morse code.

6) Amateur radio clearly prohibits for profit broadcasting and advertising. This rule is frequently misunderstood to prohibit any commerce or any monetary exchange. It isn't against the rules to facilitate person to person exchanges of value.

7) Politeness and common courtesy gets you far more in amateur radio than the strict obeyance of the rules and regulations.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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June 11, 2012, 08:03:03 PM
 #172


I was under the impression scrambling is just a measure to prevent anyone from just "listening in" by turning on their ham radio--I'm talking about the following

Digital Represented values are encrypted into a Digital format by a key the receiver already knows.
The digital encrypted message is converted into analog values that are represented by a key table that the receiver already knows.
Now the sender broadcasts the message in analog(sound/light spectrum) but it isn't represented with two values, instead it is represented by the whole analog spectrum.
The receiver decodes the analog signal with a key table... Then decrypts the signal into digital represented values.

Im not sure what my "theory" would make the broadcast sound like to a listener but at least it doesn't sound like off and on ticks and thus the FCC would get a signal but it would be static... so the FCC could prove a signal is coming from somewhere but not know why they are broadcasting static Tongue (of course im still assuming my broadcast would sound like static or weird noises of some sort... makes me want to try it out...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrambler
Wikipedia gives me the impression scrambling is just packets of analog signals moved in different positions in the timeline where the reciever has a decoder that buffers packets and then puts them in the correct order for play back.

I'm interested in your opinion because you seem to know what your talking about.
i don't think you can do that losslessly. there needs to be some kind of binary system in it, so you can make it digital again.

You just need to quantize it, not necessarily binary.  For example you could take each byte of binary data, and map it onto an analog signal.  The low end of the signal would be 0 and the high end would be 255.  Of course, you will need redundant transmission and error correction because your analog signal will get distorted by noise.  The more bits you map to each analog value, the more problems you will have with errors.

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June 11, 2012, 08:07:04 PM
 #173


I was under the impression scrambling is just a measure to prevent anyone from just "listening in" by turning on their ham radio--I'm talking about the following

Digital Represented values are encrypted into a Digital format by a key the receiver already knows.
The digital encrypted message is converted into analog values that are represented by a key table that the receiver already knows.
Now the sender broadcasts the message in analog(sound/light spectrum) but it isn't represented with two values, instead it is represented by the whole analog spectrum.
The receiver decodes the analog signal with a key table... Then decrypts the signal into digital represented values.

Im not sure what my "theory" would make the broadcast sound like to a listener but at least it doesn't sound like off and on ticks and thus the FCC would get a signal but it would be static... so the FCC could prove a signal is coming from somewhere but not know why they are broadcasting static Tongue (of course im still assuming my broadcast would sound like static or weird noises of some sort... makes me want to try it out...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrambler
Wikipedia gives me the impression scrambling is just packets of analog signals moved in different positions in the timeline where the reciever has a decoder that buffers packets and then puts them in the correct order for play back.

I'm interested in your opinion because you seem to know what your talking about.
i don't think you can do that losslessly. there needs to be some kind of binary system in it, so you can make it digital again.

You just need to quantize it, not necessarily binary.  For example you could take each byte of binary data, and map it onto an analog signal.  The low end of the signal would be 0 and the high end would be 255.  Of course, you will need redundant transmission and error correction because your analog signal will get distorted by noise.  The more bits you map to each analog value, the more problems you will have with errors.
exactly what i was talking about. i just could not put it into words. would such signal be detectable because of the "hops", like there is only 34 and 35 but not 34,5. would it not leave a empty "space" between 34 and 35?

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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June 11, 2012, 08:10:14 PM
 #174

Ill be watching this, good work.

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June 11, 2012, 08:15:31 PM
 #175



Most excellent, Matthew. 

Will it come with horse wallpaper?
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June 11, 2012, 08:18:44 PM
 #176


I was under the impression scrambling is just a measure to prevent anyone from just "listening in" by turning on their ham radio--I'm talking about the following

Digital Represented values are encrypted into a Digital format by a key the receiver already knows.
The digital encrypted message is converted into analog values that are represented by a key table that the receiver already knows.
Now the sender broadcasts the message in analog(sound/light spectrum) but it isn't represented with two values, instead it is represented by the whole analog spectrum.
The receiver decodes the analog signal with a key table... Then decrypts the signal into digital represented values.

Im not sure what my "theory" would make the broadcast sound like to a listener but at least it doesn't sound like off and on ticks and thus the FCC would get a signal but it would be static... so the FCC could prove a signal is coming from somewhere but not know why they are broadcasting static Tongue (of course im still assuming my broadcast would sound like static or weird noises of some sort... makes me want to try it out...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrambler
Wikipedia gives me the impression scrambling is just packets of analog signals moved in different positions in the timeline where the reciever has a decoder that buffers packets and then puts them in the correct order for play back.

I'm interested in your opinion because you seem to know what your talking about.
i don't think you can do that losslessly. there needs to be some kind of binary system in it, so you can make it digital again.

You just need to quantize it, not necessarily binary.  For example you could take each byte of binary data, and map it onto an analog signal.  The low end of the signal would be 0 and the high end would be 255.  Of course, you will need redundant transmission and error correction because your analog signal will get distorted by noise.  The more bits you map to each analog value, the more problems you will have with errors.
exactly what i was talking about. i just could not put it into words. would such signal be detectable because of the "hops", like there is only 34 and 35 but not 34,5. would it not leave a empty "space" between 34 and 35?

You would have ranges where each value would be represented.  Say 34-35 represents 01101100 (arbitrary, don't try to figure it out).  You would have a tradeoff between accuracy and obfuscation.  If you broadcast 34.5 you'll have the best chance of falling in the proper range after your signal is corrupted by noise.  If your signal is strong enough and there is minimal noise, you can choose any random number in the range each time.  You could probably make it look a lot like analog noise if you tried hard enough, but you would have a tough time broadcasting over any distance.  Plus, the fact that your broadcasting noise would raise questions and it wouldn't be too hard to track down the transmitter to get those questions answered.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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June 11, 2012, 08:18:52 PM
 #177



Most excellent, Matthew. 

Will it come with horse wallpaper?

Don't put it past me to include easter eggs like that.

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June 11, 2012, 08:42:30 PM
 #178

watching. will be great to see how this + bitcoincard develops..
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June 11, 2012, 09:03:33 PM
 #179

 Plus, the fact that your broadcasting noise would raise questions and it wouldn't be too hard to track down the transmitter to get those questions answered.

And that’s where I get the affirmation that transmitting encrypted through ham radio data is a bust. Glad we talked this out guise.
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June 11, 2012, 10:15:03 PM
 #180

Ellet supports encrypted ham radio transactions with the iPhone CONFIRMED!

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
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June 11, 2012, 10:33:33 PM
 #181

seems legit

hi
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June 12, 2012, 01:24:41 AM
 #182

I'm just going to briefly jump into this thread to correct some misinformation about amateur radio (ham radio):

1) the international governing organisation is IARU; not FCC


I'm not concerned with the IARU, it's the FCC that controls my license.

Quote
2) FCC is an obsession of the American radio amateurs. The reason for this is that historically most American hams held radio-operator positions in some military service. Most importantly they bring with them paranoia and indoctrination prevalent in the American military.


Nope, it's because it's the law in the US.

Quote
5) Amateur radio actively encourages experimentation with the following disclaimers:

5a) don't interfere with other radio users
5b) identify your transmission in a way that can be discerned by ear by an ordinarily skilled radio operator using oridinary equipment
5c) publish all the technical information required to demodulate your experimental transmissions
5d) maintain (for about a year) the original text,voice,video,whatever used in your experimental transmissions and be ready to submit them to the licensing authorities
5e) there are additional restrictions on use of high power or wideband transmitters.

The rule 5b) means that every about an hour you have to transmit your callsign using Morse code or one of the classical audio modulations. In case of digital radio the Morse code doesn't have to be transmitted using unmodulated carrier (CW). It is sufficient to alter the parameters of your digital modulation in such a way that when listened on the audio the operator can by ear discern those changes and understand them as Morse code.

Digital radios can transmit the callsigns in their normal mode, so long as they are in the clear. In the case of modified wifi gear, this usually means in the SSID.
Quote

6) Amateur radio clearly prohibits for profit broadcasting and advertising. This rule is frequently misunderstood to prohibit any commerce or any monetary exchange. It isn't against the rules to facilitate person to person exchanges of value.
Again, nope.  Not in the US anyway.  The classic example is that you can't order a pizza over ham radio bands but you can over CB. Although bitcoin's protocol doesn't actually facilitate a business transaction, it's the result of one, so I don't know how it would work out.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

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June 13, 2012, 01:41:48 AM
 #183

So what is this secret weapon I heard about before cut off from the chat?

I'm guessing it's a wrist watch? hehe
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June 13, 2012, 01:44:17 AM
 #184

So what is this secret weapon I heard about before cut off from the chat?

I'm guessing it's a wrist watch? hehe
Come on, spill all the info, you know you want to.
Just how far along is it, anyway? It's been more than a week since it was supposed to be announced in a week. I see that the OP has been edited.

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June 13, 2012, 04:24:09 AM
 #185

Will it support ipv6? Launching a mobile device right now that doesn't support ipv6 would pretty much make it obsolete before even being manufactured. Although it would be a great upsell for later versions. Planned obsolescence and all that.

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June 13, 2012, 04:27:24 AM
 #186



Most excellent, Matthew. 

Will it come with horse wallpaper?

Don't put it past me to include easter eggs like that.

A secret episode of bittalk.tv only available to ellet owners lol

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June 13, 2012, 04:57:19 AM
 #187

I would like to point out that it's been more than a week.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 13, 2012, 10:02:59 AM
 #188


I would like to point out that it's been more than a week.

Do your calendar and clock require a repeater and other clock in a 150 meter radius in order to function?

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June 13, 2012, 10:06:44 AM
 #189


I would like to point out that it's been more than a week.

Do your calendar and clock require a repeater and other clock in a 150 meter radius in order to function?
I guess it needs to be recharged at least once a day...
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June 13, 2012, 02:58:32 PM
 #190

Ellet supports encrypted ham radio transactions with the iPhone CONFIRMED!

The iphone gets ham radio? Encrypted no less? Is there some Trucker CB radio app I've never heard about?

Please explain, on the surface that sounds ridiculous.

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June 13, 2012, 03:52:26 PM
 #191

So is this real or not?

hi
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June 13, 2012, 03:54:57 PM
 #192

So is this real or not?
In 4-6 weeks, same as the magazine. Grin

Seriously, I have a theory: I'll bet MNW was pissed at the slow development cycle (perhaps even so with the magazine), and decided to publicly announce it in order to kick everyone into high gear. Protip: Doing that makes mistakes more likely, and won't help quality control and "making a perfect product". As you should have learned already.

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June 13, 2012, 04:04:48 PM
 #193

So is this real or not?
In 4-6 weeks, same as the magazine. Grin

Seriously, I have a theory: I'll bet MNW was pissed at the slow development cycle (perhaps even so with the magazine), and decided to publicly announce it in order to kick everyone into high gear. Protip: Doing that makes mistakes more likely, and won't help quality control and "making a perfect product". As you should have learned already.

I think the recent bitcoincard meeting in Vienna was the main reason to rush his announcement. And look at all his negative/FUD comments about the bitcoincard - if he just wanted to push his paypal device, there would be no need to behave that way.
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June 13, 2012, 04:18:38 PM
 #194

So is this real or not?
In 4-6 weeks, same as the magazine. Grin

Seriously, I have a theory: I'll bet MNW was pissed at the slow development cycle (perhaps even so with the magazine), and decided to publicly announce it in order to kick everyone into high gear. Protip: Doing that makes mistakes more likely, and won't help quality control and "making a perfect product". As you should have learned already.

I think the recent bitcoincard meeting in Vienna was the main reason to rush his announcement. And look at all his negative/FUD comments about the bitcoincard - if he just wanted to push his paypal device, there would be no need to behave that way.


I think that latter is a good theory.  Lets hope the competition spurs each group to improve their devices rather than causing them to resort to unprofessional attacks. 
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June 13, 2012, 04:24:42 PM
 #195

So is this real or not?
In 4-6 weeks, same as the magazine. Grin

Seriously, I have a theory: I'll bet MNW was pissed at the slow development cycle (perhaps even so with the magazine), and decided to publicly announce it in order to kick everyone into high gear. Protip: Doing that makes mistakes more likely, and won't help quality control and "making a perfect product". As you should have learned already.

I think the recent bitcoincard meeting in Vienna was the main reason to rush his announcement. And look at all his negative/FUD comments about the bitcoincard - if he just wanted to push his paypal device, there would be no need to behave that way.


I think that latter is a good theory.  Lets hope the competition spurs each group to improve their devices rather than causing them to resort to unprofessional attacks. 

If MNW were smart, he would change his device that in addition to existing features it would also be gateway for the bitcoincard. Both would benefit from such a move.
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June 13, 2012, 04:39:23 PM
 #196

So can someone list the pros and cons of this device vs bitcoin card? Is there enough information to even compile such a list?

hi
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June 13, 2012, 05:04:09 PM
 #197

So can someone list the pros and cons of this device vs bitcoin card? Is there enough information to even compile such a list?

I have seen the bitcoincard, but until both devices are actually in the hands of users I'd be very careful with such comparisons.
As for the interoperability between different devices: I think it is important to keep all devices somehow compatible with Bitcoin itself. As long as each device supports sending and receiving funds to/from an arbitrary Bitcoin address on a standard notebook computer or a smartphone, everything will be fine.

I am also of the opinion that in the end it is about bringing Bitcoin to the users, not some device. It is pretty much the same as with different software clients: I couldn't care less if you're using bitcoin-Qt, Armory, BitcoinSpinner or if you happen to like crafting your own transactions with a pocket calculator Wink

Everything which makes it easier for people to actually use Bitcoin (while staying reasonably secure) is certainly an improvement and I'll happily support every device that helps to achieve this goal!

        ▄▄▀▀▄▄
    ▄▄▀▀▄▄██▄▄▀▀▄▄
▄▄▀▀▄▄█████▄████▄▄▀▀▄▄
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█▄▄████▀   ▀██████
███████     █▄████
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█▄█████▌   ▐█████
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    ▀▀▄▄▀▀██▀▀▄▄▀▀
        ▀▀▄▄▀▀
.PDATA..
.
TOKEN..
██
██
██   ██
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TELEGRAM     BITCOINTALK     FACEBOOK
MEDIUM    SLACK    TWITTER    YOUTUBE
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬   E M A I L   ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
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June 13, 2012, 08:58:10 PM
 #198

Ellet supports encrypted ham radio transactions with the iPhone CONFIRMED!

The iphone gets ham radio? Encrypted no less? Is there some Trucker CB radio app I've never heard about?

Please explain, on the surface that sounds ridiculous.

Not intended to be a factual statement. It is a joke.

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June 13, 2012, 09:02:50 PM
 #199

Is there enough information to even compile such a list?
no, there is simply not enough to do any kind of speculation. the top priority is to find a way to get bitcoins into the hands of many via an easy mechanism. evenly important is a POS device. but we all know that.
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June 14, 2012, 12:26:10 AM
 #200

Is there enough information to even compile such a list?
no, there is simply not enough to do any kind of speculation. the top priority is to find a way to get bitcoins into the hands of many via an easy mechanism. evenly important is a POS device. but we all know that.
Yeah, I just rather this be released by some faceless company that eh.. someone with a reputation.. if you call it that.

hi
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June 14, 2012, 01:13:47 AM
 #201

no, there is simply not enough to do any kind of speculation.

What about wild speculation?

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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June 14, 2012, 01:32:29 AM
 #202

So can someone list the pros and cons of this device vs bitcoin card? Is there enough information to even compile such a list?

I have seen the bitcoincard, but until both devices are actually in the hands of users I'd be very careful with such comparisons.
As for the interoperability between different devices: I think it is important to keep all devices somehow compatible with Bitcoin itself. As long as each device supports sending and receiving funds to/from an arbitrary Bitcoin address on a standard notebook computer or a smartphone, everything will be fine.

I am also of the opinion that in the end it is about bringing Bitcoin to the users, not some device. It is pretty much the same as with different software clients: I couldn't care less if you're using bitcoin-Qt, Armory, BitcoinSpinner or if you happen to like crafting your own transactions with a pocket calculator Wink

Everything which makes it easier for people to actually use Bitcoin (while staying reasonably secure) is certainly an improvement and I'll happily support every device that helps to achieve this goal!
+1

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June 14, 2012, 06:54:24 AM
 #203

Is this device real?

Elletsys.com won't load. Kickstarter finds nothing when searching or Ellet. Anybody know the creators?

Bump. I hope this project is real. Sounds ridiculously cool...but oddly prematurely announced to no apparent advantage to anyone but the competition... [[[[head alloc] init] scratch] harder]

Hardfork aren't that hard.
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June 14, 2012, 08:03:44 AM
 #204

Ellet supports encrypted ham radio transactions with the iPhone CONFIRMED!

The iphone gets ham radio? Encrypted no less? Is there some Trucker CB radio app I've never heard about?

Please explain, on the surface that sounds ridiculous.

Not intended to be a factual statement. It is a joke.

Zip! (Over my head). Got it. :-)

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June 14, 2012, 03:23:36 PM
 #205

I don't know if this has already been mentioned but it may be good idea to add a Bitcoincard (http://bitcoincard.org/product/) radio transceiver.  As it may benefit both devices if they could ad-hoc in the same network.

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June 14, 2012, 03:26:29 PM
 #206

I don't know if this has already been mentioned but it may be good idea to add a Bitcoincard (http://bitcoincard.org/product/) radio transceiver.  As it may benefit both devices if they could ad-hoc in the same network.

Maybe if the Ellet has 3G and WiFi then Ellet's could act as a mobile gateway nodes for Bitcoincard's?

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June 14, 2012, 05:50:37 PM
 #207

I don't know if this has already been mentioned but it may be good idea to add a Bitcoincard (http://bitcoincard.org/product/) radio transceiver.  As it may benefit both devices if they could ad-hoc in the same network.

Maybe if the Ellet has 3G and WiFi then Ellet's could act as a mobile gateway nodes for Bitcoincard's?

But then MNW would have to play nice with the bitcoincard guys...

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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June 14, 2012, 06:20:01 PM
 #208

But that is the problem, I've actual photos of Bitcoincards.  Granted, still photos can be faked; but I have nothing at all from you concerning the Ellet.  From my perspectives, it's the Ellet that is vaporware.  At a minimum, the Bitcoincard guys have working test models.  I saw a youtube video of two such cards (sitting less than a foot from each other, mind you) perform a transaction on video.  A transaction that can be verified via the bitcoin blockchain.  If the bitcoincard is vaporware, the fog is getting pretty thick.

You sure about that? As far as I'm aware, all the stuff they've demonstrated so far is entirely technically feasable if a bit tricky. It's actually the claims which they haven't given any demonstration of so far - the solar recharging, the mesh networking, the usability of the cards in areas with no infrastructure - that are implausible. Each of them is a major advance on the state of the art on its own, and combining them is harder yet.

(Not Matthew N. Wright, but this sort of thing stands out like a sore thumb.)

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June 15, 2012, 01:27:18 AM
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But that is the problem, I've actual photos of Bitcoincards.  Granted, still photos can be faked; but I have nothing at all from you concerning the Ellet.  From my perspectives, it's the Ellet that is vaporware.  At a minimum, the Bitcoincard guys have working test models.  I saw a youtube video of two such cards (sitting less than a foot from each other, mind you) perform a transaction on video.  A transaction that can be verified via the bitcoin blockchain.  If the bitcoincard is vaporware, the fog is getting pretty thick.

You sure about that? As far as I'm aware, all the stuff they've demonstrated so far is entirely technically feasable if a bit tricky. It's actually the claims which they haven't given any demonstration of so far - the solar recharging, the mesh networking, the usability of the cards in areas with no infrastructure - that are implausible. Each of them is a major advance on the state of the art on its own, and combining them is harder yet.

(Not Matthew N. Wright, but this sort of thing stands out like a sore thumb.)

Mesh networking isn't implausible at all, hams do it constantly.  That is exactly what a packet TNC does.  The real question is can they do it in such a small device and with such small power requirements, but 100 meters is nothing for a modern digital mode even at low power levels, so I don't consider that unrealistic either.  In fact, I'm hoping that they are under stating the effective range, because 100 meters isn't practical except in some pretty dense urban areas.  I'd say the bear minimum effective ranges start at 300meters.  And nor is communications sans (commerical) infrastructure implausible, for that is the very nature of mesh networking anyway.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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