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Author Topic: Mt.Gox AML/KYC Process Explained  (Read 9727 times)
kronosvl
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June 08, 2012, 02:40:53 PM
 #21

So you need proof of residence because of bank standards but such proof provided by a bank is not accepted. Fuck this shit.

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June 08, 2012, 02:49:59 PM
 #22

Why do AML/KYC?

 Mt.Gox handles both Bitcoin and fiat currency (Dollars, Euros, etc.) As a result, we are bound by the laws of Japan and America, along with various international regulations which cover the fiat side of our business. Very similar to how a bank in most countries must be regulated to ensure they are not facilitating money laundering, terrorist financing or the like, we are obliged to follow the same rules.

Oh please enough with the state propaganda bullshit.

Why don't you tell it like it really is. You are not obliged, you are forced under threat of violence to gather information about your customers so that governments around the world can control what your customer's money is being used for. "Money laundering, terrorist financing or the like" are victimless crimes the state invented as a way to gain even more control over the people they assert their rule over.

You can't imagine the angry thoughts that go through my mind when I read bs propaganda like this, I'm pretty sure if they already tried to attack people for thought crime I'd get the capital punishment.  Angry
First and foremost, don't let the bullies in this thread silence you (and shame on them).  Your opinion is just as important as mtgox trying to work within the current system.

I think we have to view the situation for what it is…mtgox is trying to operate out in the open and within the confines of the existing law…whether that law is legitimate or not.  At BitPay, we do the same.

That's why I'm not angry you and mtgox are for the purpose of self preservation giving in to these threats of violence and following the state's rules. What makes me angry is not calling a spade a spade. Don't say you are obliged to comply, say you are forced under threat of violence, don't say money laundering, say state's arbitrary rules about money transactions, don't say terrorists, say organizations the state wants to destroy, ect. just cut out the bullshit state apologist propaganda and tell it like it is.

Personally I'm not against private law, I'm not against private rules, I'm just against rulers. In fact I support some voluntary, private and most of all consistent rules that would be mandatory for everyone wishing to be part of a society(not geographically bound of course) to follow.



The only point of my entire rant was that if you really share my ideals and want to get from under the thumb of state sponsored violence, stop spreading their bullshit PR propaganda. It's as simple as that.

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June 08, 2012, 03:15:04 PM
 #23

I only have one question.

How the fuck can zhou tong use mt gox via bitcoinica when its explicitly stated in your tos that its impossible because he is 17 if Im not mistaken Huh??

Maybe some people are more equal than others.....

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June 08, 2012, 03:19:10 PM
 #24

I only have one question.

How the fuck can zhou tong use mt gox via bitcoinica when its explicitly stated in your tos that its impossible because he is 17 if Im not mistaken Huh??

Maybe some people are more equal than others.....
ToS didn't exist back then...
And before the ToS was added to the site, his account got moved to a corporation so it wouldn't matter.

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June 08, 2012, 03:21:16 PM
 #25

Ok, so far the not-so-much news about what you state why and what for you need all that info on users.

Now I am much more interested what flags the KYC on users, which freezes their account and funds until they comply? I refuse to comply to your KYC policy. What is the max amount of combined funds I may have? What kind of "suspicious transfers" (?!?) will flag me?

Being able to calculate the risk on MtGox would be a plus, and may keep me from going to another exchange like Intersango.

Ente

They will answer on Monday in the other thread what you need to do to have Gox report you to the police as a terrorist/money launderer... They reported me to the police:(  We will soon find out why.

So let me get this right. Nothing in either of these two threads is going to be addressed till Monday. Come Monday morning, Dylan is going to go to his desk with his fresh cup and coffee and start addressing each and every question and concern on these two threads. Why? Because it's his job and he said he would. My guess is that he'll still be sitting there come Tuesday and his coffee will be cold unless, of course, Mark is looking over his shoulders and bringing fresh cups of coffee while they ponder how to address the more difficult questions and concerns, ones that can't be easily replied to with, "I'm not at liberty to answer that question." or, "I'm going to have to ask so-and-so."

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June 08, 2012, 03:29:52 PM
 #26

I only have one question.

How the fuck can zhou tong use mt gox via bitcoinica when its explicitly stated in your tos that its impossible because he is 17 if Im not mistaken Huh??

Maybe some people are more equal than others.....
ToS didn't exist back then...
And before the ToS was added to the site, his account got moved to a corporation so it wouldn't matter.

He was 16 y/o at the time. And if being incorporated excuses the legal age requirement of one using an exchange, then I guess my 10 y/o nephew has something to look forward to. I'll simply make sure he fills out the online application from Delaware correctly.

~Bruno~
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June 08, 2012, 03:41:27 PM
 #27

Is there a difference betwen AML/KYC policy and 'suspicious' activity policy with mtgox?
For instance, I use a VPN much of the time, but I have to remember to disconnect in case I accidentally log onto mtgox and create a 'suspicious activity' alert.
The level of trade I have on mt.gox means that I haven't entered into the the level of AML - would proof of id related to suspicious activity be kept for AML purposes, or would it just be for your own security concerns?
Ideally if I accidentally logged on with a VPN I would be happy to provide proof of my id for your eyes only, but I would be less happy for you to keep it permanantly.
I'm happy to comply with AML/KYC should it become necessary if my trading level increases, but the level of my trading should allow me to be free from that even if I accidentally create a suspicious activity alert.
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June 08, 2012, 03:47:30 PM
 #28

I only have one question.

How the fuck can zhou tong use mt gox via bitcoinica when its explicitly stated in your tos that its impossible because he is 17 if Im not mistaken Huh??

Maybe some people are more equal than others.....
ToS didn't exist back then...
And before the ToS was added to the site, his account got moved to a corporation so it wouldn't matter.

He was 16 y/o at the time. And if being incorporated excuses the legal age requirement of one using an exchange, then I guess my 10 y/o nephew has something to look forward to. I'll simply make sure he fills out the online application from Delaware correctly.

~Bruno~


wtf do they allow 16yr olds to become corporations Huh??

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June 08, 2012, 04:29:59 PM
 #29

I only have one question.

How the fuck can zhou tong use mt gox via bitcoinica when its explicitly stated in your tos that its impossible because he is 17 if Im not mistaken Huh??

Maybe some people are more equal than others.....
ToS didn't exist back then...
And before the ToS was added to the site, his account got moved to a corporation so it wouldn't matter.

He was 16 y/o at the time. And if being incorporated excuses the legal age requirement of one using an exchange, then I guess my 10 y/o nephew has something to look forward to. I'll simply make sure he fills out the online application from Delaware correctly.

~Bruno~


wtf do they allow 16yr olds to become corporations Huh??

They sure do and did. I'm ready to start the process to show how easy it'll be for a 10 kid to get an approved account at Mt. Gox. Meanwhile, look what I found.


How many underage users do you think there are? How much money do you think they have?

Right, not many and not much.

Let's find out.  Please vote.


Trading is not allowed for underage users? Sad

In many places, people under 18 cannot sign contracts.  They can open bank or investment accounts with their guardian's permission.  I don't know Bitcoinica's policy on this but if a Bitcoinica user needs verification of a mailing address using a bank statement or utility bill and the minor's guardians object to them having a bank account, then it would be difficult for a minor to have a Bitconica account. MtGox won't even allow bank statements for verification purposes.

Also, MtGox Terms of Service state:
Quote
By opening an account to use the Platform ("Account") Members represent and warrant:
         1.  they have accepted these Terms; and
         2.  they are at least 18 years of age and have the full capacity to accept these Terms and enter into a transaction resulting
         on the Platform

That's why I won't use Mt. Gox personally.

~Bruno~
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June 08, 2012, 07:44:08 PM
 #30

Quote
If we were going to sell your personal information to a law enforcement agency, it probably wouldn't be to the American Drug Enforcement Administration. We would make much more money selling it to our local Tokyo Metropolitan Police, since we wouldn't be losing any money on the currency conversion.

Lol

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June 08, 2012, 07:54:56 PM
 #31

That's why I'm not angry you and mtgox are for the purpose of self preservation giving in to these threats of violence and following the state's rules. What makes me angry is not calling a spade a spade. Don't say you are obliged to comply, say you are forced under threat of violence, don't say money laundering, say state's arbitrary rules about money transactions, don't say terrorists, say organizations the state wants to destroy, ect. just cut out the bullshit state apologist propaganda and tell it like it is.
I believe that you're angry but I'm skeptical that you're actually angry at Mt. Gox.

Is their refusal to antagonize the regulators who barely even need an excuse to shut them down really the most egregious example of not calling a spade a spade that affects you on a daily basis? Could the actual source of your anger someone or something a little closer to home?
Bitco
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June 08, 2012, 09:15:42 PM
 #32

Many of our German and Polish users have probably experienced a great deal of frustration getting verified with Mt.Gox, as Germany and Poland both issue an identity card which includes a person's current address. Unfortunately, because we must also follow American and Japanese rules, we also have to ask for separate proof of residence documents.

Can you please explain what the Japanese rules are, because this is clearly inconsistent with US rules.

The US customer identification requirements are not to acquire copies of specific documents, but rather to verify the information that you're given.

For example, is the address and phone number valid?  Did the customer receive mail that you sent to that address?  Is the information consistent, ie does the telephone area code match the address given?  If the customer claims to have lived at the address for 3 years, can you verify that with a third party (eg a telephone directory)?

Photocopies of ID cards are generally not sufficient or required, because someone could submit a copy of someone else's ID.  If a customer walks into a bank in the US and opens an account, a bank employee will look at the photo ID to make sure the customer is not using someone else's ID, but they don't need to photocopy it.

In the event that you are not able to verify a customer's information, you do have to return their money.  You don't have to do business with someone, but you can't just take their money and keep it.
EhVedadoOAnonimato
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June 08, 2012, 10:19:37 PM
 #33

<off-topic>
You are not obliged, you are forced under threat of violence to gather information about your customers so that governments around the world can control what your customer's money is being used for.

Being obliged == being forced to, AFAICT.

You can't imagine the angry thoughts that go through my mind when I read bs propaganda like this, I'm pretty sure if they already tried to attack people for thought crime I'd get the capital punishment.  Angry

Chill down man, you'll only get an ulcer for nothing.
I usually get angry with authoritarianisms I see happening day by day, but you're letting yourself go too easily if just this OP was enough to get you angry. It won't do you any good.

Plus, the correct wording may make a lot of difference in the results, even if in the end it's the same thing you're saying. It's probably wiser for OP to use the words he used instead the words you'd used. That will probably make his job and the business of his employer last longer. Plus, he didn't need to lie.
Btw, remember they are using their own identity here. When my parents were teenagers, publicly speaking about the state the way you've just done here would probably get them in jail, or worse, make them "disappear". And even recently, a political blogger in Brazil just got shot 6 times, miraculously survived, and now is facing a lawsuit from a federal representative bitch for "moral damages", while the investigation about his attempt of murder is practically archived already.
TL;DR: Don't look for troubles. Take care.

</off-topic>
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June 08, 2012, 11:07:42 PM
 #34

Why do AML/KYC?

 Mt.Gox handles both Bitcoin and fiat currency (Dollars, Euros, etc.) As a result, we are bound by the laws of Japan and America, along with various international regulations which cover the fiat side of our business. Very similar to how a bank in most countries must be regulated to ensure they are not facilitating money laundering, terrorist financing or the like, we are obliged to follow the same rules.

Oh please enough with the state propaganda bullshit.

Why don't you tell it like it really is. You are not obliged, you are forced under threat of violence to gather information about your customers so that governments around the world can control what your customer's money is being used for. "Money laundering, terrorist financing or the like" are victimless crimes the state invented as a way to gain even more control over the people they assert their rule over.

You can't imagine the angry thoughts that go through my mind when I read bs propaganda like this, I'm pretty sure if they already tried to attack people for thought crime I'd get the capital punishment.  Angry
You can't imagine the angry thoughts that go through my mind when I read this bullshit libertarian and anarchistic off-topic propaganda.
just because you a little afraid kid, paranoid about the big bad government, that is actually trying to make you safe and comfortable, you don't have to spray your fuck system shit around this forum at all time.

+1

Some people on this forum are truly paranoid about anything government related...

People are in fantasy-land thinking that "this" was not the eventual outcome.  People need to be realistic and think about the risk 3rd parties take, when they convert you cash in a credit so you can use there service.  If you think you can do better, design a system and operate it and see what happens.   I would be concerned more if a service like Dwolla or Mt. Gox didn't ask for this. 

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June 09, 2012, 05:25:46 AM
 #35

Is there a difference betwen AML/KYC policy and 'suspicious' activity policy with mtgox?
No, all of these refer to laws passed at different times modifying similar sections of the United States Code. They all refer to the same laws, or to activities the laws require.


The level of trade I have on mt.gox means that I haven't entered into the the level of AML - would proof of id related to suspicious activity be kept for AML purposes, or would it just be for your own security concerns?
All levels of trade are subject to AML/KYC/BSA/Patriot Act.


Ideally if I accidentally logged on with a VPN I would be happy to provide proof of my id for your eyes only, but I would be less happy for you to keep it permanantly.
I'm happy to comply with AML/KYC should it become necessary if my trading level increases, but the level of my trading should allow me to be free from that even if I accidentally create a suspicious activity alert.

Enhanced Due Diligence (KYC - know your customer) provisions require that they obtain valid ID for everyone.
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June 09, 2012, 06:26:51 AM
 #36

Thanks for being open, Gox. Those who feel uncomfortable with the rules, regulations, and taxation of fiat currency are welcome to stop bitching and start living without fiat. Hey, Bitcoin is here. Use it. Nobody is forcing you to go to Mt.Gox and surrender your government-issued ID back into the hands of... government. Or something like that.


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Your mining rig is on fire, yet you're very calm.
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June 09, 2012, 08:34:51 AM
 #37

Mt Gox needs to use a third party for AML/KYC rather than do it themselves. There is too much incentive for them to simply claim documents are fake and block account holders because there is no transparency at all .

Its like putting the banks in charge of their own regulations through the SEC which caused the GFC !

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June 09, 2012, 09:04:40 AM
 #38

Mt Gox needs to use a third party for AML/KYC rather than do it themselves. There is too much incentive for them to simply claim documents are fake and block account holders because there is no transparency at all .

Its like putting the banks in charge of their own regulations through the SEC which caused the GFC !

From my personal experience with them, I think they send the funds to a "court". They do not get to keep the funds (assuming you file counter charges against Mt. Gox).

Im more worried about my personal ID being on a site thats a honeypot for hackers....considering mt gox has been hacked in the past its not a risk I want to take. Did someone mention identity theft ?

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June 09, 2012, 09:29:16 AM
 #39

Mt Gox needs to use a third party for AML/KYC rather than do it themselves. There is too much incentive for them to simply claim documents are fake and block account holders because there is no transparency at all .

Its like putting the banks in charge of their own regulations through the SEC which caused the GFC !

From my personal experience with them, I think they send the funds to a "court". They do not get to keep the funds (assuming you file counter charges against Mt. Gox).

Im more worried about my personal ID being on a site thats a honeypot for hackers....considering mt gox has been hacked in the past its not a risk I want to take. Did someone mention identity theft ?
im my opinion, because they have been hacked, you have a reason to trust them: they have failed and learned, and they are therefor more secure now then before.

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June 09, 2012, 10:38:55 AM
 #40

Mt Gox needs to use a third party for AML/KYC rather than do it themselves. There is too much incentive for them to simply claim documents are fake and block account holders because there is no transparency at all .

Its like putting the banks in charge of their own regulations through the SEC which caused the GFC !

MtGox doesn't need to do anything because it's regulated by it's customers (i.e. the free market). Just watch how fast they'll fall if they are stupid enough to start operating in bad faith.

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