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Author Topic: PAJKA.BOND - 100% PPS 15Mhash mining bond  (Read 22729 times)
furuknap
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June 05, 2013, 04:40:07 PM
 #101

SOS, to be honest, I think perhaps you may want to relax a bit in your investments. It is clear that you don't accurately grasp all the factors and that you may need to work on your math a bit to avoid burning yourself on your investments and losing money.

This isn't relevant to PAJKA, though, so I suggest you look elsewhere for some general advice. Perhaps investing in a fund is a better option for you?

.b

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SOSLOVE868
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June 05, 2013, 05:01:37 PM
 #102

SOS, to be honest, I think perhaps you may want to relax a bit in your investments. It is clear that you don't accurately grasp all the factors and that you may need to work on your math a bit to avoid burning yourself on your investments and losing money.

This isn't relevant to PAJKA, though, so I suggest you look elsewhere for some general advice. Perhaps investing in a fund is a better option for you?

.b
Nevermind, difficulty has increase today....and it take 5518 days for those PAJKA holder to recovery their initial investment...and make profit...

I am happy that you like this investment....!!! So you can wait for 5518 days to collect you funds back...Don't try to convince me....Under current market situation if PMB does't not specific out when the issuer will buying back the bond...this is a trap....!!!!I will never invest any my money into it!!!I just can not get back it for sure..... of course you can hold and wait for more than 10 years to get your money back ,this is your choice...

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June 05, 2013, 09:36:25 PM
 #103

How about if bfl is not deliver nor refund the BTC back to you ? what will you do then?

Great question, it doesn't look like BFL will deliver so I guess you would buy out the fund.
Well, I believe that BFL will deliver sooner or later.
In case BFL goes bankrupt ... I might consider buying the bonds back ... but the question is at what price ...
What price do you see fair? 0.1 BTC minus all paid dividends? No, that's too much ... but how much ... that's a question.
Some people bought into 0.3mhash/s bonds, some bought into 1.5mhash/s bonds all with the risk that they might never reach even 3mhash/s ...
When PAJKA.BOND was selling as 1.5mhash/s bond per 0.1BTC it was cheaper than other mining bonds and now after upgrade it gave already nice dividends.
Now the difficulty went a bit higher and new mining bonds/companies backed by ASIC showed up at lower prices.

If you buy now you take a risk that BFL will bankrupt but you know the price (it may be higher when BFL delivers) and get the dividends from 3mhash/s until they deliver.
The choice is yours.
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June 05, 2013, 09:40:33 PM
 #104

I understand that PAJKA is bond not a shares....Since PAJKA bond does double its dividend as ASICMINER reached 12TH/S....and I remember that PAJKA BOND'S dividend is part backing by ASICMINER'S hashrate....therefore I wrote this suggestion to the issuer...this may be the time to double its hashrate per bond...

The doubling was part of the contract you purchased. You didn't answer my question; what does the issuer get in return for giving you more money? At this point, you're only begging for money but not offering anything in return.

.b
The return here is simple, by assurance to investors confidence of this bond.will increase its rate of acceptance of this bond...and the shareholder could generate more BTC in short time...Currently market price for ASICMINER'S BLADE is cost 50 BTC..it will pay out itself in 145 days.....if PAJKA finished its IPO process as quick as possibly...the funds still can pay out far weighted its cost....

I'm struggling to grasp the accurate meaning of what you're saying, but you're solely talking about benefits to you. Let's make it simple.

DO NOT mention share price, as this is solely a benefit to you (and is irrelevant to the issuer because the bonds on the market are already sold)
DO NOT mention hashrate, as this is solely a benefit to you (and is an added expense to the issuer which is a pretty clear disadvantage)

Now explain to me, what does the issuer get out of this, considering the bonds on the market are already sold at a well-known and clear-cut contract?

Remember, don't mention shareprice or dividends; those either do not benefit the issuer or benefits you only.

.b

OK...But the truth here is PAJKA BOND does not finish its IPO process....This only depend on whether the issuer try to quickly finished its IPO or not...if not...I think he will absolutely accepted the low trading volume in the market......if he urgently needs capital to fundraising its project..like I say that ordering Blade or other mining rigs..... I do not have the time to do the math for you ...but I can tell you if the IPO is finished in very short time, the issuer can get more funds to buy those rigs...and the funds he received can produce double value in a year......Remember since all fund is received in BTC and all rigs are pay in BTC...The issuer can double its capitals in a year time...without the risk of volatility of BTC...

Guys, you made quite a long discussion here.
You are right that the IPO is not 100% complete but I wrote that I plan on selling the rest when BFL delivers at price decided when the upgrade to 15mhash/s happens.
I don't plan to increase the payout until I have real ASICs in hand.
furuknap
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June 05, 2013, 11:10:31 PM
 #105

SOS, to be honest, I think perhaps you may want to relax a bit in your investments. It is clear that you don't accurately grasp all the factors and that you may need to work on your math a bit to avoid burning yourself on your investments and losing money.

This isn't relevant to PAJKA, though, so I suggest you look elsewhere for some general advice. Perhaps investing in a fund is a better option for you?

.b
Nevermind, difficulty has increase today....and it take 5518 days for those PAJKA holder to recovery their initial investment...and make profit...

I am happy that you like this investment....!!! So you can wait for 5518 days to collect you funds back...Don't try to convince me....Under current market situation if PMB does't not specific out when the issuer will buying back the bond...this is a trap....!!!!I will never invest any my money into it!!!I just can not get back it for sure..... of course you can hold and wait for more than 10 years to get your money back ,this is your choice...

You believe your math is correct, so you sell, and that is your prerogative as an investor.

If you are confident in your decision, however, I don't understand why you don't sell everything, considering you claim to have sold some and that the rest must be equally unprofitable as the ones you've already sold. As far as I can see, there are sill bids up.

.b

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June 06, 2013, 03:48:57 AM
 #106

SOS, to be honest, I think perhaps you may want to relax a bit in your investments. It is clear that you don't accurately grasp all the factors and that you may need to work on your math a bit to avoid burning yourself on your investments and losing money.

This isn't relevant to PAJKA, though, so I suggest you look elsewhere for some general advice. Perhaps investing in a fund is a better option for you?

.b
Nevermind, difficulty has increase today....and it take 5518 days for those PAJKA holder to recovery their initial investment...and make profit...

I am happy that you like this investment....!!! So you can wait for 5518 days to collect you funds back...Don't try to convince me....Under current market situation if PMB does't not specific out when the issuer will buying back the bond...this is a trap....!!!!I will never invest any my money into it!!!I just can not get back it for sure..... of course you can hold and wait for more than 10 years to get your money back ,this is your choice...

You believe your math is correct, so you sell, and that is your prerogative as an investor.

If you are confident in your decision, however, I don't understand why you don't sell everything, considering you claim to have sold some and that the rest must be equally unprofitable as the ones you've already sold. As far as I can see, there are sill bids up.

.b
I tried to sell everything...but the market does not appreciate this bonds....this why I have been stuck here....
carnitastaco
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June 06, 2013, 08:22:21 PM
 #107

How about if bfl is not deliver nor refund the BTC back to you ? what will you do then?

Great question, it doesn't look like BFL will deliver so I guess you would buy out the fund.
Well, I believe that BFL will deliver sooner or later.
In case BFL goes bankrupt ... I might consider buying the bonds back ... but the question is at what price ...
What price do you see fair? 0.1 BTC minus all paid dividends? No, that's too much ... but how much ... that's a question.
Some people bought into 0.3mhash/s bonds, some bought into 1.5mhash/s bonds all with the risk that they might never reach even 3mhash/s ...
When PAJKA.BOND was selling as 1.5mhash/s bond per 0.1BTC it was cheaper than other mining bonds and now after upgrade it gave already nice dividends.
Now the difficulty went a bit higher and new mining bonds/companies backed by ASIC showed up at lower prices.

If you buy now you take a risk that BFL will bankrupt but you know the price (it may be higher when BFL delivers) and get the dividends from 3mhash/s until they deliver.
The choice is yours.

I'm confused, your contract states exactly how much you would pay to buy the bonds back, and why does BFL have anything to do with your bond?  You offered a 1.5 MH bond (now 3 MH.)  your contract on BTCTC states that you can buy out the bonds at 110% of the average 15 day price.

are these wrong?
SOSLOVE868
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June 06, 2013, 11:08:00 PM
 #108

How about if bfl is not deliver nor refund the BTC back to you ? what will you do then?

Great question, it doesn't look like BFL will deliver so I guess you would buy out the fund.
Well, I believe that BFL will deliver sooner or later.
In case BFL goes bankrupt ... I might consider buying the bonds back ... but the question is at what price ...
What price do you see fair? 0.1 BTC minus all paid dividends? No, that's too much ... but how much ... that's a question.
Some people bought into 0.3mhash/s bonds, some bought into 1.5mhash/s bonds all with the risk that they might never reach even 3mhash/s ...
When PAJKA.BOND was selling as 1.5mhash/s bond per 0.1BTC it was cheaper than other mining bonds and now after upgrade it gave already nice dividends.
Now the difficulty went a bit higher and new mining bonds/companies backed by ASIC showed up at lower prices.

If you buy now you take a risk that BFL will bankrupt but you know the price (it may be higher when BFL delivers) and get the dividends from 3mhash/s until they deliver.
The choice is yours.

I'm confused, your contract states exactly how much you would pay to buy the bonds back, and why does BFL have anything to do with your bond?  You offered a 1.5 MH bond (now 3 MH.)  your contract on BTCTC states that you can buy out the bonds at 110% of the average 15 day price.

are these wrong?

the problem of PMB is only stated that issuer has the right to buying back the bonds at anytime...  because it does not specific a time...this why , if the difficulty will increase 20X times from now to next year!!! then it means almost not cost for the issuer to keep the money..... The issuer never break any contract...they just exploit it!!!  I will never ever buying any PMB contract....I feel been cheated....
furuknap
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June 07, 2013, 03:27:26 AM
 #109

I will never ever buying any PMB contract....I feel been cheated....

So... First you don't know what you're buying. Then you buy something without reading the contract. And now you're pissed at the seller because you didn't do your research.

Needless to say, your plead for sympathy weighs about as much as your math skills, which suck, but hey, it's your money.

Next time you decide to invest in something you don't understand, I'll save you from a lot of waitning and public humiliation; you can just send me your money instead.

.b

furuknap
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June 07, 2013, 03:46:08 AM
 #110

I'm confused, your contract states exactly how much you would pay to buy the bonds back, and why does BFL have anything to do with your bond?  You offered a 1.5 MH bond (now 3 MH.)  your contract on BTCTC states that you can buy out the bonds at 110% of the average 15 day price.

are these wrong?

So far, this bond has delivered exactly what the contract states. I'm not sure why you would assume that the contract would now suddenly be wrong?

BFL is relevant because these are the ASICs mentioned in contract that will increase hashrate by 5x (from 3mhs to 15mhs). Thus, when those arrive, dividens should increase by 5x as well.

To briefly comment on our friend SOS' math, at the moment, PAJKA hashes at 1/25 of what ASICMiner does per share and trades at less than 1/25 of AM. When BFL delivers their units, PAJKA will hash at 1/5 of AM per share.

Don't be deceived by this alone, though, because AM is a share and PAJKA is a bond.

However, when you realize that AM has a yield of roughly 30% per year sans hardware and halving effect, PAJKA having a yield of less than 7% like SOS claims is just nonsense. The math doesn't work at all and I haven't found any way to come up with a numer that yields a 15 year ROI.

.b

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June 07, 2013, 05:26:10 AM
 #111

People who mention an IPO obviously don't know the premise behind a coupon-paying bond...same thing with US treasuries, this isn't a sale of equity, but rather an open-market issuance of debt.  There's no hard cap on the number of shares that can contractually be issued  because you're not buying into physical assets/there's no equity backing the bonds (as opposed to the normal case with stocks, where the stockholder is promised his or her share of the company assets in the event of liquidation, although in many cases of BTC stocks, even this isn't promised).

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Horrid! And gold flushed more." - James Joyce
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June 07, 2013, 05:42:36 AM
 #112



So far, this bond has delivered exactly what the contract states. I'm not sure why you would assume that the contract would now suddenly be wrong?


re-read what I quoted, he was speculating about the price he would buyout shares, when he already had terms for a buyout listed. I didn't assume it's wrong, I asked.
furuknap
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June 07, 2013, 05:48:40 AM
 #113



So far, this bond has delivered exactly what the contract states. I'm not sure why you would assume that the contract would now suddenly be wrong?


re-read what I quoted, he was speculating about the price he would buyout shares, when he already had terms for a buyout listed. I didn't assume it's wrong, I asked.

OK, so let's be pedantic.

So far, this bond has delivered exactly what the contract states. I'm not sure why you would ask if contract would now suddenly be wrong?

.b

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June 07, 2013, 05:49:30 AM
 #114

People who mention an IPO obviously don't know the premise behind a coupon-paying bond...same thing with US treasuries, this isn't a sale of equity, but rather an open-market issuance of debt.  There's no hard cap on the number of shares that can contractually be issued  because you're not buying into physical assets/there's no equity backing the bonds (as opposed to the normal case with stocks, where the stockholder is promised his or her share of the company assets in the event of liquidation, although in many cases of BTC stocks, even this isn't promised).

Good point, and I think I'll include this in my article if you don't mind me referencing you?

.b

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June 07, 2013, 05:55:45 AM
 #115

People who mention an IPO obviously don't know the premise behind a coupon-paying bond...same thing with US treasuries, this isn't a sale of equity, but rather an open-market issuance of debt.  There's no hard cap on the number of shares that can contractually be issued  because you're not buying into physical assets/there's no equity backing the bonds (as opposed to the normal case with stocks, where the stockholder is promised his or her share of the company assets in the event of liquidation, although in many cases of BTC stocks, even this isn't promised).

Good point, and I think I'll include this in my article if you don't mind me referencing you?

.b

Sure thing, mate.  And although I guess you could technically use the term IPO to describe any public offering of assets, its generally not used to describe bonds - not trying to be disparaging toward anyone, just trying to make sure we're all using the right terminology.  For example, the reference to resistance and support levels as "walls" on this forum drives me slightly insane. 

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Horrid! And gold flushed more." - James Joyce
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June 07, 2013, 05:57:49 AM
 #116

Please everyone stop selling the bonds. I am not selling, the returns are fine for now. I don't think it's time to cash out yet.

furuknap
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June 07, 2013, 06:03:33 AM
 #117

Please everyone stop selling the bonds. I am not selling, the returns are fine for now. I don't think it's time to cash out yet.

The other aspect of this is that the issuer can repurchase the bonds at well below issuing price because one whiny kid didn't get the first thing about investment.

.b

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June 07, 2013, 06:14:03 AM
 #118

I can't understand why people are selling right now, either.  The bond has one of the highest returns of the assets on BTC-TC even in its pre-upgrade state.  And apparently BFL has actually started shipping on a limited basis (there are reports of units coming in, and while it could be spam, its starting to sound like they're starting to legitimize themselves).

EDIT: And at these now-lower prices, its going to drive that return through the roof.  Its not like there's as much risk associated with these bonds as there is with stocks...

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Horrid! And gold flushed more." - James Joyce
furuknap
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June 07, 2013, 06:28:29 AM
 #119

I can't understand why people are selling right now, either.  

You say 'people' like it would indicate more than one person. The volume these past few days isn't more than SOS claims to have dumped. It seems that the embarrasment of publicly demonstrating and admitting lack of knowledge wasn't enough, so a financial self-slap in the face was required.

I'm not sure if SOS is trying to get back at the issuer or me, but suffice to say, I've made some purchases these past couple of days :-)

.b

EDIT: You don't have to look further than the trade patterns to see that this is just someone trying to drive the price down. Whenever there is a market buy, a single share is sold at market bid to give the illusion of a downward trend. It's silly, really, but let him cry himself to sleep...

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June 07, 2013, 06:36:06 AM
 #120

PAJKA's div is 10870 satoshi@0.07      while TAT's virutualmine div is 3223 satishi@0.0072 . You do the math.....

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