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Author Topic: This frozen chicken “had a rich, emotional life.”  (Read 16683 times)
SebastianJu
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January 27, 2015, 07:14:39 PM
 #141

pretty much anything you can think about could be classified as a theory.

True. Though that borders "what is reality at all". We mostly can judge on our past observations if things are right or wrong or likely more near to the truth. At the end its all theory thats more or less likely. Only thing with religion is that its a theory that cant be observed like that. Its a believe. There is no prayer that can repeatedly heal cancer or something like that. Religion simply is far outside of the truth likeliness of science.

[True. Animals are machine, and humans are cyborgs with souls that can reach God. People are AI. God is the only real intelligence.]

So we are back to a claim you cant back with anything. Its like me stating that the allmighty spaghetti monster made all mankind. I cant proof it and i wont be able to find a proof. So do you. The problem is you maybe act on those believes.

[You weren't there. Why wouldn't they build machines? See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=925633.msg10259731#msg10259731, a part of which is quoted here
Quote
A BIG part of the point is that, even though the ancient trading civilization that ruled the world in our prehistoric past may not have been called "Atlantis" around the world, it was INDEED there. Why don't modern scientists want to acknowledge this? Why do the universities constantly attempt to hide the info? Are they afraid that their whole system of ancient history which is a big joke will prove that they are stupid? Will this credibility loss cost them their place in the world of money?

So its a past high culture that is hidden by science? Conspiracy theory or what is this? Of course people in the past made inventions. But they didnt have a car or a notebook. Which means humans build their machines on the knowledge others brought them. Its the same with animals. They see how an animal of their kind is opening a shell with a rock and they start using it the same way. They learn from others and at some point an animal will find an even better way. This doesnt proof that humans have souls and animals are soulless robots.

[Humans are cyborgs. The thing that distinguishes them from the animals is that the DO have souls.]

Where is your proof for this claim? I can throw around statements the same way you do. They still dont get valid only by repeating them.

[Perhaps. But it is way more arbitrary to think that they have such potential. Why? All you need do is consider how they have used whatever potential that they may have over the millennia.]

And who are you to say that they dont have souls only because they didnt reach the same level as humans yet? If you would see it as potential then you wouldnt go around and claim that other life forms are soulless creatures that dont feel pain. You would be way more cautious.

[The major thing that is against what you say here, is the fact of entropy which is virtually universal. At the same time, there is NOTHING that can be conclusively proven or even shown that animals can become better as you call it.]

You really should watch some documentations sometimes. Animals all over the world learn new things. But even if they wouldnt. You should assume that it takes a lot more time to learn more. Only because humans made the jump by developing a more stable nutrition, leading to a higher brain capacity and so on, doesnt mean that animals, with enough time, wont be able to reach higher levels.

[The difference is that animals that learn rather complicated things, only do so in the presence of humans teaching them. Then they forget. But if a few remember and pass it on, their machines and learnings are not compound. They are simple. Any compund machine learning that animals have dies with them. Animals are not made to have such, just as they are not made to have souls.]
What are you speaking about? Animals learn how to crack shells. They didnt know how to do it before. One of them found out and the others learned from him. Please inform yourself about animals using tools. Its not only about highly specific tasks they learn from humans. Its natural development.

[That's half right. Take all man's knowledge away, and it would be a long time before he regained it. Yet you will never be able to teach an animal to drive the way a human does. Animals aren't made to understand that kind of thing.]

And? What does it say that it would take a long time? If you would have a brother and he is 10 years younger than you, then he is quite stupid. But you dont go around and claim he is a soulless robot who doesnt feel pain. Because with enough time he will become smart enough. What does time matter when its about potential? But the fact that you claim something or someone not as far developed as you must be a soulless robot without feels of pain is really strange. I mean i know religious people and how they think so i understand it but its still not understandable for humans that werent indoctrinated with "believes" that cant be proven.

[Good doesn't have anything to do with it. Animals were designed to be robots, just as humans were designed to be cyborgs with souls. God designed and built.]

Where is your proof? If i claim you were designed by god to be a slave because you belong to race x of human kind... how could i be wrong? Its the same arbitrary claim you do. You cant proof it. Its a believe. But you think you can act on this believe. And thats hefty.

[You really need to get away to the mountains more often. There are signs all over mountain roads that say "Watch out for falling rocks!" Rocks roll, both before they fall, and after. What? Do you think that the first wheel that people made was like the latest shiny car wheel?]

I dont see how this goes against what i wrote. I only said humans invent things above things other humans invented before them. If you rais a group of humans without knowledge of science and teachings or tech then they most probably will only be able to build very simple tools. Still better than the ones animals use but animals show potential to build machines too.

[All right! I almost thought you had gone to be like one of the animals there for a little.]

 Shocked So the ability to imagine that there is something hidden that you cant explain is a sign of intelligence. Im not so sure. An animal most probably wont worship lightning bolts as thrown from god thor. And we know animals would be the smarter ones by not doing so. Im not sure why you feel superiour to animals because you very hard believe in an imaginery friend whose existence you neither can proof nor show. Fantasy for sure is worth something but fantasy leading to "iam better than the rest" is somewhat dangerous. Happened too often in human past that human races were seen ans animals, put into zoos, it was claimed they dont feel pain and and and.

[As far as religious books go, all the religious books of the world except one are man's writings. The Bible is an extension of God through human beings. When you study everything about the Bible, including its structure, the history of how it came into being, the single theme that flows throughout, the traditions of the nation of Israel regarding it, etc., you will find that it is an impossible to have been written book. Yet here it is, in abundance, all around the world, translated into multitudes of languages.]

*lol* Now you really made me laugh out loud. Your believe is really sweet. I would lead you to certain documentaries where clearly is show scientifically that each book of the bible was written by certain humans if i would know the english versions. And if you would follow the history of the bible you would find pretty much that your believe is build on very weak foots.

On top... would you have been born in an islam family you would say the very same about the koran.

But since you wrote this i have to admit that you are a hardcore believer. Its useless to discuss on that level. I wouldnt get anything from it and most people of that kind are feared that they could have been believed the wrong thing. They need the order in order to have a system to understand live. Since otherwise the chaos remaining would be too hard to accept.

[Did you even read what I wrote above? In brief, the greater the machine, the greater the machine maker. The fact that the universe is full of all the machinery that we get ours from, and even machinery that is way beyond our understanding at present, shows that the Machine Maker of the universe is extremely great. In fact, His greatness fits the definition of the word God. That's why we call Him God.]

So only because you cant understand why something exists you think there must have been some allmightly alien who made it. Ok. Its no different from old vikings who thought god thor throws the lightning bolts around. Because... who other than a god could do such thing?
So only because you claim there must have been an allmighty person who did it... it still becomes no claim who proofs itself. Its only your believe. So if an airplane is crashing in amazonas and the humans living there believe god has sent it, because who other could have build it is the same like a beautiful waterfall who built itself into a mountain. God must has build it personally, because who could have done it otherwise. Sorry but thats a really childish view of life where one doesnt see themself as a fully grown person but as a child who needs parents. Most probably its too hard for many humans to accept that things simply happen because other parts of life moved things into a certain direction. All mighty gods who did everything we cant explain are really something from the past and not really top notch of human development. And you know that.

[The stuff of nature is extremely complex. Nobody can will himself to grow another arm. If you lose an arm, there is no way you can get it back. Yet, science is finding out that an arm is loaded with technology. Scientists are starting to duplicate some of the complex technology that exists in an arm. It is technology. Technology has a technology inventor and maker. It just doesn't pop into being, over a long period of time or short.]
[/quote]

Oh right. Since when was the last time that god build back a cut arm of a human? If a human arm grows naturally its not god building it slowly. Otherwise he would do it again. Its nature, following the rule that has proven valid. And scientists can copy the mechanisms who has proven advantageous in nature. Where is god there? I guess it can only be seen when seeing something and believing it must have been created in an instant. Without a long aging development to get to that status. A working arm for example.

[God is so extremely great that we can't ask the right question about Him like that. In our simple, little minds, the answer to the question of where God came from would make no sense. In fact, God is so GREAT that hearing the answer might even kill us. Suffice it to say that God is eternal, no beginning or end.]

You keep spouting around believes. Its funny. Though there is nothing to back it beyond that believe. Should i speak to you about how great the allmighty spaghetti monster is? I guess you would have fun trying to convince me that my god is the wrong god because... you believe so. Smiley

[The evidence of the complex, machine-like quality of the universe and nature suggests that God exists. There is no other way. Entropy and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics dispells the belief that such complexity could come into being of itself over tremendously long periods of time.]

*sigh* Of course. An allmighty person that cant be seen nor interacts. But it must have been there because i cant understand why all life is working together that great that its like a huge machine. There must be a person who did this. Sorry... this thought scheme doesnt make sense.

[Now you are touching on seeing the great good God has given us. He has given us such strength of will that we can either believe in Him and be friends with Him, or we can ignore Him to the point of denying ourselves right out of existence. I truly hope your studies and the calling of the Holy Spirit reach you before you get to the point of self-destruction.

So youre a friend of god? Will you tell me that your prayers work? Or is it more like the usual when you became healed then it was god, when you didnt then it was gods will? Sorry. Even if there is a god. It does not make sense to believe or pray to him when there is nothing coming out of it. There is life, yes, thats undeniable. And maybe some form of life is able to heal. But its still only a part of live. No person behind life. Though at the end its even irrelevant if there are life forms who might be able to heal when you cant reach them. And im 100% sure you cant reach anything with your believe. Maybe you can calm yourself with prayers. Thats it. The rest is some form of live in a social community. But nothing worthy besides some more or less ethical rules.

Its not that im not spiritual. Im only not gullible. Its way too easy to catch gullible people in sects, scientology or more or less dangerous religions. But proving what exists, whats nonsense, whats only believe is important. With you i only see believes, proven by nothing. But dangerously you judge others with your believes. Though thats how religious people work mostly.
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January 28, 2015, 02:29:33 AM
 #142

pretty much anything you can think about could be classified as a theory.

True. Though that borders "what is reality at all". We mostly can judge on our past observations if things are right or wrong or likely more near to the truth. At the end its all theory thats more or less likely. Only thing with religion is that its a theory that cant be observed like that. Its a believe. There is no prayer that can repeatedly heal cancer or something like that. Religion simply is far outside of the truth likeliness of science.

[True. Animals are machine, and humans are cyborgs with souls that can reach God. People are AI. God is the only real intelligence.]

So we are back to a claim you cant back with anything. Its like me stating that the allmighty spaghetti monster made all mankind. I cant proof it and i wont be able to find a proof. So do you. The problem is you maybe act on those believes.

[You weren't there. Why wouldn't they build machines? See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=925633.msg10259731#msg10259731, a part of which is quoted here
Quote
A BIG part of the point is that, even though the ancient trading civilization that ruled the world in our prehistoric past may not have been called "Atlantis" around the world, it was INDEED there. Why don't modern scientists want to acknowledge this? Why do the universities constantly attempt to hide the info? Are they afraid that their whole system of ancient history which is a big joke will prove that they are stupid? Will this credibility loss cost them their place in the world of money?

So its a past high culture that is hidden by science? Conspiracy theory or what is this? Of course people in the past made inventions. But they didnt have a car or a notebook. Which means humans build their machines on the knowledge others brought them. Its the same with animals. They see how an animal of their kind is opening a shell with a rock and they start using it the same way. They learn from others and at some point an animal will find an even better way. This doesnt proof that humans have souls and animals are soulless robots.

[Humans are cyborgs. The thing that distinguishes them from the animals is that the DO have souls.]

Where is your proof for this claim? I can throw around statements the same way you do. They still dont get valid only by repeating them.

[Perhaps. But it is way more arbitrary to think that they have such potential. Why? All you need do is consider how they have used whatever potential that they may have over the millennia.]

And who are you to say that they dont have souls only because they didnt reach the same level as humans yet? If you would see it as potential then you wouldnt go around and claim that other life forms are soulless creatures that dont feel pain. You would be way more cautious.

[The major thing that is against what you say here, is the fact of entropy which is virtually universal. At the same time, there is NOTHING that can be conclusively proven or even shown that animals can become better as you call it.]

You really should watch some documentations sometimes. Animals all over the world learn new things. But even if they wouldnt. You should assume that it takes a lot more time to learn more. Only because humans made the jump by developing a more stable nutrition, leading to a higher brain capacity and so on, doesnt mean that animals, with enough time, wont be able to reach higher levels.

[The difference is that animals that learn rather complicated things, only do so in the presence of humans teaching them. Then they forget. But if a few remember and pass it on, their machines and learnings are not compound. They are simple. Any compund machine learning that animals have dies with them. Animals are not made to have such, just as they are not made to have souls.]
What are you speaking about? Animals learn how to crack shells. They didnt know how to do it before. One of them found out and the others learned from him. Please inform yourself about animals using tools. Its not only about highly specific tasks they learn from humans. Its natural development.

[That's half right. Take all man's knowledge away, and it would be a long time before he regained it. Yet you will never be able to teach an animal to drive the way a human does. Animals aren't made to understand that kind of thing.]

And? What does it say that it would take a long time? If you would have a brother and he is 10 years younger than you, then he is quite stupid. But you dont go around and claim he is a soulless robot who doesnt feel pain. Because with enough time he will become smart enough. What does time matter when its about potential? But the fact that you claim something or someone not as far developed as you must be a soulless robot without feels of pain is really strange. I mean i know religious people and how they think so i understand it but its still not understandable for humans that werent indoctrinated with "believes" that cant be proven.

[Good doesn't have anything to do with it. Animals were designed to be robots, just as humans were designed to be cyborgs with souls. God designed and built.]

Where is your proof? If i claim you were designed by god to be a slave because you belong to race x of human kind... how could i be wrong? Its the same arbitrary claim you do. You cant proof it. Its a believe. But you think you can act on this believe. And thats hefty.

[You really need to get away to the mountains more often. There are signs all over mountain roads that say "Watch out for falling rocks!" Rocks roll, both before they fall, and after. What? Do you think that the first wheel that people made was like the latest shiny car wheel?]

I dont see how this goes against what i wrote. I only said humans invent things above things other humans invented before them. If you rais a group of humans without knowledge of science and teachings or tech then they most probably will only be able to build very simple tools. Still better than the ones animals use but animals show potential to build machines too.

[All right! I almost thought you had gone to be like one of the animals there for a little.]

 Shocked So the ability to imagine that there is something hidden that you cant explain is a sign of intelligence. Im not so sure. An animal most probably wont worship lightning bolts as thrown from god thor. And we know animals would be the smarter ones by not doing so. Im not sure why you feel superiour to animals because you very hard believe in an imaginery friend whose existence you neither can proof nor show. Fantasy for sure is worth something but fantasy leading to "iam better than the rest" is somewhat dangerous. Happened too often in human past that human races were seen ans animals, put into zoos, it was claimed they dont feel pain and and and.

[As far as religious books go, all the religious books of the world except one are man's writings. The Bible is an extension of God through human beings. When you study everything about the Bible, including its structure, the history of how it came into being, the single theme that flows throughout, the traditions of the nation of Israel regarding it, etc., you will find that it is an impossible to have been written book. Yet here it is, in abundance, all around the world, translated into multitudes of languages.]

*lol* Now you really made me laugh out loud. Your believe is really sweet. I would lead you to certain documentaries where clearly is show scientifically that each book of the bible was written by certain humans if i would know the english versions. And if you would follow the history of the bible you would find pretty much that your believe is build on very weak foots.

On top... would you have been born in an islam family you would say the very same about the koran.

But since you wrote this i have to admit that you are a hardcore believer. Its useless to discuss on that level. I wouldnt get anything from it and most people of that kind are feared that they could have been believed the wrong thing. They need the order in order to have a system to understand live. Since otherwise the chaos remaining would be too hard to accept.

[Did you even read what I wrote above? In brief, the greater the machine, the greater the machine maker. The fact that the universe is full of all the machinery that we get ours from, and even machinery that is way beyond our understanding at present, shows that the Machine Maker of the universe is extremely great. In fact, His greatness fits the definition of the word God. That's why we call Him God.]

So only because you cant understand why something exists you think there must have been some allmightly alien who made it. Ok. Its no different from old vikings who thought god thor throws the lightning bolts around. Because... who other than a god could do such thing?
So only because you claim there must have been an allmighty person who did it... it still becomes no claim who proofs itself. Its only your believe. So if an airplane is crashing in amazonas and the humans living there believe god has sent it, because who other could have build it is the same like a beautiful waterfall who built itself into a mountain. God must has build it personally, because who could have done it otherwise. Sorry but thats a really childish view of life where one doesnt see themself as a fully grown person but as a child who needs parents. Most probably its too hard for many humans to accept that things simply happen because other parts of life moved things into a certain direction. All mighty gods who did everything we cant explain are really something from the past and not really top notch of human development. And you know that.

Quote
[The stuff of nature is extremely complex. Nobody can will himself to grow another arm. If you lose an arm, there is no way you can get it back. Yet, science is finding out that an arm is loaded with technology. Scientists are starting to duplicate some of the complex technology that exists in an arm. It is technology. Technology has a technology inventor and maker. It just doesn't pop into being, over a long period of time or short.]

Oh right. Since when was the last time that god build back a cut arm of a human? If a human arm grows naturally its not god building it slowly. Otherwise he would do it again. Its nature, following the rule that has proven valid. And scientists can copy the mechanisms who has proven advantageous in nature. Where is god there? I guess it can only be seen when seeing something and believing it must have been created in an instant. Without a long aging development to get to that status. A working arm for example.

[God is so extremely great that we can't ask the right question about Him like that. In our simple, little minds, the answer to the question of where God came from would make no sense. In fact, God is so GREAT that hearing the answer might even kill us. Suffice it to say that God is eternal, no beginning or end.]

You keep spouting around believes. Its funny. Though there is nothing to back it beyond that believe. Should i speak to you about how great the allmighty spaghetti monster is? I guess you would have fun trying to convince me that my god is the wrong god because... you believe so. Smiley

[The evidence of the complex, machine-like quality of the universe and nature suggests that God exists. There is no other way. Entropy and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics dispells the belief that such complexity could come into being of itself over tremendously long periods of time.]

*sigh* Of course. An allmighty person that cant be seen nor interacts. But it must have been there because i cant understand why all life is working together that great that its like a huge machine. There must be a person who did this. Sorry... this thought scheme doesnt make sense.

[Now you are touching on seeing the great good God has given us. He has given us such strength of will that we can either believe in Him and be friends with Him, or we can ignore Him to the point of denying ourselves right out of existence. I truly hope your studies and the calling of the Holy Spirit reach you before you get to the point of self-destruction.

So youre a friend of god? Will you tell me that your prayers work? Or is it more like the usual when you became healed then it was god, when you didnt then it was gods will? Sorry. Even if there is a god. It does not make sense to believe or pray to him when there is nothing coming out of it. There is life, yes, thats undeniable. And maybe some form of life is able to heal. But its still only a part of live. No person behind life. Though at the end its even irrelevant if there are life forms who might be able to heal when you cant reach them. And im 100% sure you cant reach anything with your believe. Maybe you can calm yourself with prayers. Thats it. The rest is some form of live in a social community. But nothing worthy besides some more or less ethical rules.

Its not that im not spiritual. Im only not gullible. Its way too easy to catch gullible people in sects, scientology or more or less dangerous religions. But proving what exists, whats nonsense, whats only believe is important. With you i only see believes, proven by nothing. But dangerously you judge others with your believes. Though thats how religious people work mostly.

Yes. It is way more easy to pick on the words of each other than it is to investigate what the other is saying with the words. And, I don't only mean you. I mean myself as well.

One point in my belief system is, spiritual people are gullible. They have to be. Why? Simply because nobody knows the future. Everyone lives on faith, hoping that tomorrow will be as good as today, or even better, but not really knowing anything about the future. Non-spiritual people simply take it as it comes, and go on with their lives.

I guess that's enough detail between us. At least until we can examine what the other is saying in detail.

Have a nice life.

Smiley
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January 28, 2015, 02:39:30 AM
 #143

nice thread to read but im still going to have breakfast in KFC .........
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January 28, 2015, 03:56:19 AM
 #144

nice thread to read but im still going to have breakfast in KFC .........

2 Biscuites, 2 Apple Turnovers, and a Side Salad, right?    Cheesy
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January 28, 2015, 04:02:10 AM
 #145

nice thread to read but im still going to have breakfast in KFC .........

2 Biscuites, 2 Apple Turnovers, and a Side Salad, right?    Cheesy

1 Zinger fillet burger
1 Portion spicy wings
1 Mash potato in gravy
1 Large  fries
1 Large  Coke

and then go drink coffee for good health   Cheesy
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January 28, 2015, 09:52:26 AM
 #146

It is called survival of the fittest. That is what our world revolves around.

Our governments have more guns, that is how they are able to tell us what to do and jail us if they want to jail us or kill us if they want to kill us.

Humans have more power than animals. That is why we can kill them and eat them.

If you are outraged about this, are you equally outraged about our governments being able to steal money from us and kidnap us?

If animals had more power than humans, then things would be different.

We live in an anarchist world, if you want to protect animals, protect them with guns from the other humans (or convince those with the most guns, ie the government, to protect the animals from humans).

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January 28, 2015, 11:13:15 AM
 #147

It is called survival of the fittest. That is what our world revolves around.

Our governments have more guns, that is how they are able to tell us what to do and jail us if they want to jail us or kill us if they want to kill us.

Humans have more power than animals. That is why we can kill them and eat them.

If you are outraged about this, are you equally outraged about our governments being able to steal money from us and kidnap us?

If animals had more power than humans, then things would be different.

We live in an anarchist world, if you want to protect animals, protect them with guns from the other humans (or convince those with the most guns, ie the government, to protect the animals from humans).

Just curious bro, what kingdom of life do you think you belong to?  Plants?  Fungus? 

Do you have more power than your infant child?  Then by your logic you must have killed and eaten it. 

Also consider that your family might be able to help you if you let them live.  Just because you can kill something does not mean that doing it is beneficial to you. 

Speaking of survival of the fittest, if you cared about longevity you might be interested to try considering your health. 
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January 28, 2015, 11:38:23 AM
 #148

Just curious bro, what kingdom of life do you think you belong to?  Plants?  Fungus? 

Do you have more power than your infant child?  Then by your logic you must have killed and eaten it. 

Also consider that your family might be able to help you if you let them live.  Just because you can kill something does not mean that doing it is beneficial to you. 

Speaking of survival of the fittest, if you cared about longevity you might be interested to try considering your health. 

He said can, not must.

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January 28, 2015, 12:19:10 PM
 #149

Just curious bro, what kingdom of life do you think you belong to?  Plants?  Fungus? 

Do you have more power than your infant child?  Then by your logic you must have killed and eaten it. 

Also consider that your family might be able to help you if you let them live.  Just because you can kill something does not mean that doing it is beneficial to you. 

Speaking of survival of the fittest, if you cared about longevity you might be interested to try considering your health. 

He said can, not must.

Good point, thank you.  My apologies to Elwar for misinterpreting. 
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January 28, 2015, 01:11:02 PM
 #150

Just curious bro, what kingdom of life do you think you belong to?  Plants?  Fungus? 

Do you have more power than your infant child?  Then by your logic you must have killed and eaten it. 

Also consider that your family might be able to help you if you let them live.  Just because you can kill something does not mean that doing it is beneficial to you. 

Speaking of survival of the fittest, if you cared about longevity you might be interested to try considering your health. 

He said can, not must.

Good point, thank you.  My apologies to Elwar for misinterpreting. 

No problem, the argument can also go the other way. Us libertarians complain about the government and yet we are willing to use force against those that have less power than us (animals). It makes you wonder, if you were actually in charge would you do anything differently? Especially considering you already have that choice and you choose to use force.

Something to think about. I will not try to justify my eating meat. I can probably count the number of vegetables I like on one hand and those are mostly of the potato chip/nacho chip variety. I know it is unhealthy but I try to expand my tastes as much as I can hope to. I have also at times phased in meat substitutes but those processed frankensteins are probably not all that much healthier than the meat version.

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Wilikon
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January 28, 2015, 04:31:45 PM
 #151



I wonder if, by protecting all animals from being eaten by mankind, that includes insect too?





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January 28, 2015, 06:07:22 PM
 #152

I wonder if, by protecting all animals from being eaten by mankind, that includes insect too?

And that is the main decider, at what point do we plant our flag and say "at this point on we do not kill"?

I would think that most of us would not kill a monkey that can actively speak sign language just to fill our bellies.

Even vegetarians choose at what level of life they are willing to kill. Do you swat at a mosquito or step on a bug? What about living viruses? Do you bring out the holocaust inducing bleach to eradicate bacteria and other living organisms? Is there a certain configuration of living cells that is ok to kill and not ok?

You might plant your flag and say that anything with a smaller brain than maybe 1000 cells can be killed but anything more than that is off limits. This is the same as a meat eater saying we will not eat something with the intellect of a monkey or horse or house pet, but beyond that everything is fair game. Or being willing to kill a human based on some pre-defined justification.

First the ability to do so needs to be established, then the willingness to do so.

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January 28, 2015, 06:50:24 PM
 #153

I wonder if, by protecting all animals from being eaten by mankind, that includes insect too?

And that is the main decider, at what point do we plant our flag and say "at this point on we do not kill"?

I would think that most of us would not kill a monkey that can actively speak sign language just to fill our bellies.

Even vegetarians choose at what level of life they are willing to kill. Do you swat at a mosquito or step on a bug? What about living viruses? Do you bring out the holocaust inducing bleach to eradicate bacteria and other living organisms? Is there a certain configuration of living cells that is ok to kill and not ok?

You might plant your flag and say that anything with a smaller brain than maybe 1000 cells can be killed but anything more than that is off limits. This is the same as a meat eater saying we will not eat something with the intellect of a monkey or horse or house pet, but beyond that everything is fair game. Or being willing to kill a human based on some pre-defined justification.

First the ability to do so needs to be established, then the willingness to do so.

More than this, what limits are there to freedom?

A vegetarian activist might attempt to require all people to become vegetarians. At such a time a meat-eating-only activist might oppose the vegetarian. Then government steps in and what is the result? Loss of freedoms, and more taxes.

Hold to your sacred ideals. Preach to others with the hope of turning them to your way of thinking. But at the end of the day, freedom for all with the following limitations:
1. Harm nobody;
2. Damage the property of nobody else;
3. Fulfill your contracts.

"But, but, but, animals are somebodies." They might be to each other. But they are not to people. Animals are not "somebody" with regard to people. There is a huge difference between people and animals. You don't think so? Be faithful to yourself if that's what you think, and stop living in a house, stop wearing clothes, don't cook your food, and drink from the river.

Smiley

EDIT: And, I wasn't picking on Elwar. I was simply extending what he had commented.
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January 28, 2015, 07:53:21 PM
 #154

I wonder if, by protecting all animals from being eaten by mankind, that includes insect too?

And that is the main decider, at what point do we plant our flag and say "at this point on we do not kill"?

I would think that most of us would not kill a monkey that can actively speak sign language just to fill our bellies.

Even vegetarians choose at what level of life they are willing to kill. Do you swat at a mosquito or step on a bug? What about living viruses? Do you bring out the holocaust inducing bleach to eradicate bacteria and other living organisms? Is there a certain configuration of living cells that is ok to kill and not ok?

You might plant your flag and say that anything with a smaller brain than maybe 1000 cells can be killed but anything more than that is off limits. This is the same as a meat eater saying we will not eat something with the intellect of a monkey or horse or house pet, but beyond that everything is fair game. Or being willing to kill a human based on some pre-defined justification.

First the ability to do so needs to be established, then the willingness to do so.


It is obvious we need a guidance from the anti meat eaters. They can tell us if we can eat an insect or a jelly fish...  Cool


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January 29, 2015, 01:06:39 AM
 #155

I wonder if, by protecting all animals from being eaten by mankind, that includes insect too?

And that is the main decider, at what point do we plant our flag and say "at this point on we do not kill"?

I would think that most of us would not kill a monkey that can actively speak sign language just to fill our bellies.

Even vegetarians choose at what level of life they are willing to kill. Do you swat at a mosquito or step on a bug? What about living viruses? Do you bring out the holocaust inducing bleach to eradicate bacteria and other living organisms? Is there a certain configuration of living cells that is ok to kill and not ok?

You might plant your flag and say that anything with a smaller brain than maybe 1000 cells can be killed but anything more than that is off limits. This is the same as a meat eater saying we will not eat something with the intellect of a monkey or horse or house pet, but beyond that everything is fair game. Or being willing to kill a human based on some pre-defined justification.

First the ability to do so needs to be established, then the willingness to do so.


It is obvious we need a guidance from the anti meat eaters. They can tell us if we can eat an insect or a jelly fish...  Cool




A lion doesn't consult with a zebra when its hungry, the are advantages to bring the dominant species ie. "top of the food chain"
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January 29, 2015, 02:26:15 AM
 #156

I wonder if, by protecting all animals from being eaten by mankind, that includes insect too?

And that is the main decider, at what point do we plant our flag and say "at this point on we do not kill"?

I would think that most of us would not kill a monkey that can actively speak sign language just to fill our bellies.

Even vegetarians choose at what level of life they are willing to kill. Do you swat at a mosquito or step on a bug? What about living viruses? Do you bring out the holocaust inducing bleach to eradicate bacteria and other living organisms? Is there a certain configuration of living cells that is ok to kill and not ok?

You might plant your flag and say that anything with a smaller brain than maybe 1000 cells can be killed but anything more than that is off limits. This is the same as a meat eater saying we will not eat something with the intellect of a monkey or horse or house pet, but beyond that everything is fair game. Or being willing to kill a human based on some pre-defined justification.

First the ability to do so needs to be established, then the willingness to do so.


It is obvious we need a guidance from the anti meat eaters. They can tell us if we can eat an insect or a jelly fish...  Cool




A lion doesn't consult with a zebra when its hungry, the are advantages to bring the dominant species ie. "top of the food chain"



 Roll Eyes Roll EyesWe need to impose our humanity and our codes to the animal kingdom by making humans the same as animals, even lions and insects... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



hashman
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January 29, 2015, 02:50:49 AM
 #157


 There is a huge difference between people and animals.



You're right, there is a difference between a member of a set and the set itself.  Kinda hard to put your finger on the difference though.   

-- bon appetit
BADecker
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January 29, 2015, 02:54:18 AM
 #158


 There is a huge difference between people and animals.



You're right, there is a difference between a member of a set and the set itself.  Kinda hard to put your finger on the difference though.   

-- bon appetit

Thank Goodness the animals know the difference.  Smiley
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January 29, 2015, 02:59:37 AM
 #159

If your swimming you can be eaten by a shark or a Crocodile....

Animals would eat us if they could.... I have no Meat guilt at all... Mmmmm delicious animals Smiley
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January 29, 2015, 07:49:36 AM
 #160

If your swimming you can be eaten by a shark or a Crocodile....

Animals would eat us if they could.... I have no Meat guilt at all... Mmmmm delicious animals Smiley

Survival of the fittest in a sense and also a reminder to stay out of their elements
Then again humans win since we eat shark fins and have Alligator Gumbo as a species we sure eat a lot of different species
Nom.
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