Bitcoin Forum
December 08, 2016, 04:20:27 AM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Criticisms?  (Read 10365 times)
Hawker
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 700



View Profile
June 20, 2012, 09:02:07 PM
 #61

So you are agreed that we end up with 1 set of laws and 1 court system in a market court system.  And that that 1 set of laws doesn't have any particular advantage or fairness.  Its the one that has the firepower to enforce its judgements.

Thats your ideal? 

One set of laws, but not one court. The one set of laws does have an advantage in fairness, because it is the one that the market has chosen, the one that benefits both sides of each dispute the most.

Lets stay to one point at a time.

No matter how many sets of laws you start with, you end up with just one set.  And its not selected by fairness; its selected by its ability to be enforced.  So if an ambitious country or a rich individual supplies one of the court systems with attack helicopters and tanks, the other court systems all fail and the law of the land is whatever that 1 court system with the backing of a foreign state happens to say it is.

How is that a good thing?

1481170827
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481170827

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481170827
Reply with quote  #2

1481170827
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481170827
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481170827

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481170827
Reply with quote  #2

1481170827
Report to moderator
1481170827
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481170827

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481170827
Reply with quote  #2

1481170827
Report to moderator
myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 20, 2012, 09:25:51 PM
 #62

So you are agreed that we end up with 1 set of laws and 1 court system in a market court system.  And that that 1 set of laws doesn't have any particular advantage or fairness.  Its the one that has the firepower to enforce its judgements.

Thats your ideal? 

One set of laws, but not one court. The one set of laws does have an advantage in fairness, because it is the one that the market has chosen, the one that benefits both sides of each dispute the most.

Lets stay to one point at a time.

No matter how many sets of laws you start with, you end up with just one set.  And its not selected by fairness; its selected by its ability to be enforced.  So if an ambitious country or a rich individual supplies one of the court systems with attack helicopters and tanks, the other court systems all fail and the law of the land is whatever that 1 court system with the backing of a foreign state happens to say it is.

How is that a good thing?

You make a good point, but your assumptions are flawed. To be honest, I'm having trouble coming up with a way to explain just how flawed, simply because we're coming from such completely different directions.

OK. I imagine that such an action would be viewed (rightly) as an invasion by the supporting country, or a takeover attempt by the rich individual. That "court system" would be wiped off the map, just as any other invading force would be.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
Hawker
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 700



View Profile
June 20, 2012, 09:32:40 PM
 #63

So you are agreed that we end up with 1 set of laws and 1 court system in a market court system.  And that that 1 set of laws doesn't have any particular advantage or fairness.  Its the one that has the firepower to enforce its judgements.

Thats your ideal? 

One set of laws, but not one court. The one set of laws does have an advantage in fairness, because it is the one that the market has chosen, the one that benefits both sides of each dispute the most.

Lets stay to one point at a time.

No matter how many sets of laws you start with, you end up with just one set.  And its not selected by fairness; its selected by its ability to be enforced.  So if an ambitious country or a rich individual supplies one of the court systems with attack helicopters and tanks, the other court systems all fail and the law of the land is whatever that 1 court system with the backing of a foreign state happens to say it is.

How is that a good thing?

You make a good point, but your assumptions are flawed. To be honest, I'm having trouble coming up with a way to explain just how flawed, simply because we're coming from such completely different directions.

OK. I imagine that such an action would be viewed (rightly) as an invasion by the supporting country, or a takeover attempt by the rich individual. That "court system" would be wiped off the map, just as any other invading force would be.

Ignore the source of the fire-power.  Any court system has to be able to enforce its judgements to survive in a market.  You have agreed that you eventually you will end up with one.  That one is not the "fairest" its the one with the most fire-power.

How is "most fire-power" a good way to decide what the law should be?

myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 20, 2012, 09:33:49 PM
 #64

So you are agreed that we end up with 1 set of laws and 1 court system in a market court system.  And that that 1 set of laws doesn't have any particular advantage or fairness.  Its the one that has the firepower to enforce its judgements.

Thats your ideal? 

One set of laws, but not one court. The one set of laws does have an advantage in fairness, because it is the one that the market has chosen, the one that benefits both sides of each dispute the most.

Lets stay to one point at a time.

No matter how many sets of laws you start with, you end up with just one set.  And its not selected by fairness; its selected by its ability to be enforced.  So if an ambitious country or a rich individual supplies one of the court systems with attack helicopters and tanks, the other court systems all fail and the law of the land is whatever that 1 court system with the backing of a foreign state happens to say it is.

How is that a good thing?

You make a good point, but your assumptions are flawed. To be honest, I'm having trouble coming up with a way to explain just how flawed, simply because we're coming from such completely different directions.

OK. I imagine that such an action would be viewed (rightly) as an invasion by the supporting country, or a takeover attempt by the rich individual. That "court system" would be wiped off the map, just as any other invading force would be.

Ignore the source of the fire-power.  Any court system has to be able to enforce its judgements to survive in a market.  You have agreed that you eventually you will end up with one.  That one is not the "fairest" its the one with the most fire-power.

How is "most fire-power" a good way to decide what the law should be?

You are the one saying that enforcement = firepower, not me.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
Hawker
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 700



View Profile
June 20, 2012, 09:42:54 PM
 #65

...snip...

How is "most fire-power" a good way to decide what the law should be?

You are the one saying that enforcement = firepower, not me.

Well we are making progress aren't we.  We are agreed that the market means there will only be 1 system of law and the one system will be the one that can enforce its judgements.  The others fail as there is no place in the market for a court system that can't enforce its judgements.

One lawmaker wins on a last man standing basis. 

Enforcement requires violence so the winner is the one that has the most fire-power.  And that is your new government.

Its not an attractive prospect is it?

myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 20, 2012, 09:53:08 PM
 #66

Enforcement requires violence

And this is where you are wrong.

Disagreements are not settled by force in arbitration. They are settled by both parties coming to an agreement.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
Hawker
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 700



View Profile
June 20, 2012, 10:01:30 PM
 #67

Enforcement requires violence

And this is where you are wrong.

Disagreements are not settled by force in arbitration. They are settled by both parties coming to an agreement.

If they don't agree, the court will enforce a judgement.  That's what a court is for.

myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 20, 2012, 10:04:02 PM
 #68

Enforcement requires violence

And this is where you are wrong.

Disagreements are not settled by force in arbitration. They are settled by both parties coming to an agreement.

If they don't agree, the court will enforce a judgement.  That's what a court is for.

Again you insist on that word, "court"... why are you stuck on that?

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
Hawker
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 700



View Profile
June 20, 2012, 10:06:02 PM
 #69

Enforcement requires violence

And this is where you are wrong.

Disagreements are not settled by force in arbitration. They are settled by both parties coming to an agreement.

If they don't agree, the court will enforce a judgement.  That's what a court is for.

Again you insist on that word, "court"... why are you stuck on that?

Because when people go to a person to adjudicate, its called going to court.  That's the language.  Unless you mean that there is no enforcement in which case, there are no property rights at all.

myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 20, 2012, 10:18:24 PM
 #70

Again you insist on that word, "court"... why are you stuck on that?
Because when people go to a person to adjudicate, its called going to court.  That's the language.  Unless you mean that there is no enforcement in which case, there are no property rights at all.

No, when people go to a government to adjudicate, that's called court. It comes from back when people used to go to kings to judge their cases. They held "court".

When you go to a private agency to adjudicate, it's called either arbitration, or mediation, depending on whether it is contractually binding.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
Equilux
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 309


View Profile
June 20, 2012, 11:20:55 PM
 #71

So. Why do you think we need a government?

One of the many reasons we need a government is to fill in the gaps where "the free market" or market-forces are either not working, or produce unwanted results. The reason for the unwanted results is that there are many areas of life where we don't act rationally, or have something (or emotion) at stake to outweigh what you might call a rational market decision.

A free market works great when there are many options available (of a service or a good) and all options are competing. What is also nessecary is that you are free to take your bussiness eslewhere when the product you want is not to you liking. It's also required that you are well informed to actually make a sound decision. this works well with buying goods online; the competing products are just as many clicks away as the one you are dissatisfied with, and abundant information about competitive options are at your fingertips in a convienient format.

Imagine you are old and unable to properly take care of yourself. You do have a great and loving family in the town you're living at but they are unable to provide all the care you need since they are hardworking people and have lives of their own. You arrange that you'll be admitted to a retirement home. This is a commercially run bussiness, and it turns out it's a shitty one, they charge and extortionate rate and the board of directors are awarding themselves massive bonusses. According to "the free market" this retirement-home would go out of bussiness since you could get a much better service for your money someplace else. Turns out, it doesn't. Why? Well even if you as an elderly gentleman (maybe even in the first stages of dementia ..) would find out which place would get you the best value for money i'm sure you wouldn't even concider moving to the other side of the country since everyone you know lives nearby, and those are the last people you have left.

The point is that there are many instances where letting the free market take over is not the right solution. Infact in some cases that would lead to an awefull state of affairs, but in most cases it will lead to having the worst parts of a free market without any of the benefits of that free market since people for whatever reason need a certain product of service anyway.

Further examples are hospitals, dentists, children's daycare centers, pleces that care for the (mentally) handicapped, and primary schools. (You would not move little Timmy for the third time this year, making him lose al his friends again, and driving 150 miles every day to get him to a school)

Many times is better to let those evil govenments raise their evil taxes and make life better for everyone by removing the market incentive and simply demanding every school/daycarecentre/retirement-home/hospital to maintain a certain standard at a certain price.

myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 20, 2012, 11:49:20 PM
 #72

Further examples are hospitals, dentists, children's daycare centers, pleces that care for the (mentally) handicapped, and primary schools. (You would not move little Timmy for the third time this year, making him lose al his friends again, and driving 150 miles every day to get him to a school)

This is a good point. Some people might get screwed, and not have a better market option locally. Of course, there are other options. If the only retirement home (school/daycare/etc) local to you is horrible, you could always start your own. Or advertise for someone to do so. If you've gotten screwed by someone, take them to arbitration.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
Equilux
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 309


View Profile
June 21, 2012, 12:19:33 AM
 #73

Further examples are hospitals, dentists, children's daycare centers, pleces that care for the (mentally) handicapped, and primary schools. (You would not move little Timmy for the third time this year, making him lose al his friends again, and driving 150 miles every day to get him to a school)

This is a good point. Some people might get screwed, and not have a better market option locally. Of course, there are other options. If the only retirement home (school/daycare/etc) local to you is horrible, you could always start your own. Or advertise for someone to do so. If you've gotten screwed by someone, take them to arbitration.

You could start your own, but many times that's not a option (lacking the time/skills/capital to do so.) But that doesn't really help the situation. You won't put the bad bussinesses out of business because of the reasons I outlined before.

But this does bring up another point; the free market presumes that there are enough people to do a job or run a certain venture, and when there aren't enough people to provide a certain service, it becomes scarce and the price will go up, drawing more people to the oppertunity and solving that problem. But what is that's not the case? What if there are not enough people willing to provide a service that is needed, and there are simply not enough people to do the kinds of jobs needed? The price will certainly go up, but it won't ever come down and that means a service becomes unavailable to many people. Depending on what the service is, that's anywhere from not really a problem (luxury goods) to clearly unacceptable when it's a service like running a daycare, medical care, running a retirement home, when this is only available to the (super)rich.

myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 21, 2012, 12:29:51 AM
 #74

Daycare and caring for the elderly aren't vital services... these were done by the family for a large majority of human history. But I don't really worry about there being people around willing to take those jobs.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
finkleshnorts
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336



View Profile
June 21, 2012, 12:36:59 AM
 #75

If arbiters can't/don't back up their decisions with violence, then they are just a bunch of dickheads with neat opinions.
myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 21, 2012, 12:46:51 AM
 #76

If arbiters can't/don't back up their decisions with violence, then they are just a bunch of dickheads with neat opinions.

I lol'ed.

Arbitration is binding because you agreed beforehand to accept their decision. You're contractually bound to do what they decide.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
Equilux
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 309


View Profile
June 21, 2012, 12:48:25 AM
 #77

Daycare and caring for the elderly aren't vital services... these were done by the family for a large majority of human history. But I don't really worry about there being people around willing to take those jobs.

Indeed, but because of that both the elderly and the infants died much quicker and much more often. you think any extended family can provide the proper care for Alzheimers, Diabetes, Osteoporosis or Arthritis? I think we are now rightly holding ourselves to higher standards than we have for a large majority of human history.

And even if it aren't essential services like you say, just this step back in quality of life that would accompany the AnCap would as far as I'm concerned be enough to reject it outright. (Someone in this thread used the word "barbaric" to describe AnCap I believe that this, among other things, is why he chose to uses that particular word.) Add to that the other critisms I've outlined it becomes clear that the removal of govenment would create much more hardship and problems than it would solve.

punningclan
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 284


Making a better tomorrow, tomorrow.


View Profile
June 21, 2012, 01:00:50 AM
 #78

I propose an online government that allows everyone to participate based on an infalible voting system (presumably a fork of Bitcoin, perhaps with built in incentives for good participation.). It would become the de-facto standard and every denizen would be born with the right to operate it once they can prove their age and citizenship.

There are hundreds of millions of folk in the country and each of their so called votes for representatives and presidents is so watered down as to appear almost meaningless. Politicians are practically unaccountable and the common folk are separated by so many degrees from the policies and bills that determine their life's as to be laughable.

The political systems of the world only end up serving to perpetuate the slavery whether by greed, negligence or business influence. In the end democracy has been shown to work however in it's current guise it appears to require too much trust in individuals who are too easily corrupted.

I say de facto standrad since, much like Bitcoin's rejection of central control and monetary policy, this project would simply side step all governments and allow the voice of the actual people to be heard.

All issues would be represented digitally and initially would simply compare the decisions of the people versus the those of their politicians.

It's likely governments would reject this system outright however with enough participation the people would see just how disjoint the decisions they make versus what their so called leaders are backing.

There are good reasons to delegate since there are always so many issues at hand however I believe it would be possible to design a system that could balance this deluge and allow normal citizens to make informed choices about real issues rather than voting for someone else who may or may not end up making the choice they wanted.

Open Source, why not Open Government? It only seems to follow given the importance of the decisions those people are making on our behalf.

The forefathers came here to escape the nonsense of royal rule and yet time has managed to bring it all back.

It was a cunning plan to have the funny man be the money fan of the punning clan.
1J13NBTKiV8xrAo2dwaD4LhWs3zPobhh5S
myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 21, 2012, 01:04:03 AM
 #79

Daycare and caring for the elderly aren't vital services... these were done by the family for a large majority of human history. But I don't really worry about there being people around willing to take those jobs.

Indeed, but because of that both the elderly and the infants died much quicker and much more often. you think any extended family can provide the proper care for Alzheimers, Diabetes, Osteoporosis or Arthritis? I think we are now rightly holding ourselves to higher standards than we have for a large majority of human history.


On the contrary, as I said, I don't worry about there being people willing to do those jobs. Even now, daycare is taken care of privately all the time, as is aged care.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
myrkul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
June 21, 2012, 01:06:02 AM
 #80

I propose an online government...

I appreciate your input, but kindly make your own thread for this, it sounds like a great discussion, but it's not this discussion.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
Pages: « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!