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Author Topic: Someone else can waste their own time getting to the bottom of this...  (Read 2630 times)
bitlane
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June 19, 2012, 08:05:06 PM
 #1

Dear Butterfly Labs,

Sincerely,
bitlane.

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June 19, 2012, 08:05:45 PM
 #2

Still butthurt?

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June 19, 2012, 08:06:47 PM
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Ok bitlane, I'm with you on this one.  I would like to see clarification from BFL on this as well.
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June 19, 2012, 08:08:07 PM
 #4

Still butthurt?
I stand to lose NOTHING.... although there are users on this forum who stand to lose up to $130,000 currently.

This needs clarification IMMEDIATELY.
I've tried to follow your logic of how they are about to lose, but I have gotten lost every single time. Would you care to explain it without any logical fallacies this time?

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June 19, 2012, 08:10:32 PM
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Still butthurt?
I stand to lose NOTHING.... although there are users on this forum who stand to lose up to $130,000 currently.

This needs clarification IMMEDIATELY.
I've tried to follow your logic of how they are about to lose, but I have gotten lost every single time. Would you care to explain it without any logical fallacies this time?
What I have yet to figure out is why bitlane is so interested in protecting other miners' interests.  Perhaps he's a secret BFL purchaser, and just wants the nitty gritty so he can nab the most profit for himself.
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June 19, 2012, 08:11:03 PM
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In another thread user bulanula said kudos to BFL. It took little over 4minutes from BFL to answer "thanks".

If someone is wondering why I am so mad. Well, I will have to get out mining when ASICs hit the market. I really liked this stuff. End of bitcoin. Mark my words. Mining won't decentralized anymore.
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June 19, 2012, 08:18:52 PM
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Scenario 1 - Someone has a pre-order for a mini rig at $15,000 and has yet to receive it. Let's say they actually get on by July 1st. Great, now they start mining.

Butterfly has said themselves they expect to ship ASIC hardware by october, so mini rig buyer has three months to mine with before hardware which is 10-20x more powerful hits the market.

So per bitcoin x profitability calculator mining at 4 months, at .10 per kwh they would be at a  $4,314 loss with absolutely ZERO resale value considering people would much prefer an ASIC unit to an outdated piece of hardware.

Mind you, I threw in an extra month of mining and if you want to simply follow logic, we can't factor in shipping delays, etc. because this is what BFL has told us will happen.

So I think a mini-rig buyer - as one example, would like to know what to expect as trade in value for their 15k investment, since if even 2 of those 1 TH units get shipped in October, difficulty will change by at least 15-20% right away.
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June 19, 2012, 08:19:55 PM
 #8


HE WILL NEED TO COME UP WITH NEARLY $130,000 USD (One Hundred Thirty Thousand Dollars) just to become competitive again.

]

Is that not his problem?
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June 19, 2012, 08:21:04 PM
 #9

He doesn't seem to have any trouble raising a fuckton of capital through the sales of bonds, so it's a non-issue as far as I can tell.

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June 19, 2012, 08:29:22 PM
 #10

I've tried.

As I said previously, GIGAVPS will essentially become a 'CPU Miner' (compared to current levels) once ASICs hit and the difficulty adjusts itself accordingly.
He will be FORCED to upgrade...or die.

Quote
He will be holding a total of 8 Mini-Rigs and 14 Bitforce Singles.

Do you have any idea what HIS 'Trade-Up' costs will be @ 1:1 'Trade-up' Ratio ?

8 Mini-Rigs ($15,000) to 8 SC Mini-Rigs ($30,000) = $15,000 each (upgrade cost) = $120,000 USD
14 Singles ($600) to 14 SC Singles ($1300) = $700 each (upgrade cost) = $9,800 USD

So, unless gigavps just gives up and quits when ASICS come out, as his current hardware will be next to useless....

HE WILL NEED TO COME UP WITH NEARLY $130,000 USD (One Hundred Thirty Thousand Dollars) just to become competitive again.


wouldn't you just trade in 8 mini rigs for 4 SC rigs
and
14 singles for 7 SC singles

for a fairly break even trade?

That is still a lot of processing power (4 TH/s) just for the SC rigs


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SgtSpike
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June 19, 2012, 08:30:22 PM
 #11

In another thread user bulanula said kudos to BFL. It took little over 4minutes from BFL to answer "thanks".

If someone is wondering why I am so mad. Well, I will have to get out mining when ASICs hit the market. I really liked this stuff. End of bitcoin. Mark my words. Mining won't decentralized anymore.
That doesn't make any sense.  Why will you have to get out of mining when ASICs hit the market?

$150 is currently cheaper than just about any mining solution out there.  If anything, in the long run, that will help to continue to decentralize mining, not centralize it.
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June 19, 2012, 08:31:40 PM
 #12

He doesn't seem to have any trouble raising a fuckton of capital through the sales of bonds, so it's a non-issue as far as I can tell.


That's heartless....

He IS the most trustworthy and SOLID member in the Mining Community and to see him fucked over (whether you like him or not, which I particularly DO NOT) is JUST SAD.

This is not personal....this is the PRINCIPAL of it all.

Just because on a personal level I don't like him at times, it doesn't mean that I want to see his venture bankrupt.

It's users like him that give Bitcoin Ventures LEGITIMACY and if he's fucked over, then what does that say in general about those who belong to and support the communities chances ?

Dude, BFL being a bunch of shady fucks aside, Giga is not going to get screwed.  

He sold 40,000 bonds against his operation, and took in roughly $200,000!  If he shuts down he will actually net a profit.  His bondholders are on the line here, not him.  

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June 19, 2012, 08:32:21 PM
 #13

wouldn't you just trade in 8 mini rigs for 4 SC rigs
and
14 singles for 7 SC singles

for a fairly break even trade?

That is still a lot of processing power (4 TH/s) just for the SC rigs
^this

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June 19, 2012, 08:36:06 PM
 #14

wouldn't you just trade in 8 mini rigs for 4 SC rigs
and
14 singles for 7 SC singles

for a fairly break even trade?

That is still a lot of processing power (4 TH/s) just for the SC rigs

If BFL's recent infusion of Venture Capitol have enabled them to be a CHARITY, then by all means, I am sure you will be able to trade multiple items in without any money on your end.
Isn't THAT the way that Capitalist Businesses work ?

Everything I have read so far says $ for $ trade in towards the ASICs - perhaps that will change but my example is based on what I know so far

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davidspitzer
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June 19, 2012, 08:42:50 PM
 #15

Everything I have read so far says $ for $ trade in towards the ASICs - perhaps that will change but my example is based on what I know so far

You are correct. $ for $ Trade In value against new hardware.
http://www.butterflylabs.com/bitforce-sc-faq/

Quote
Upon release of BitForce SC based Singles & Mini Rigs, all previous generation BitForce products will enjoy a full 100% trade in value when used towards the purchase of the newer generation replacements.

I rest my case.... (not really.)



I agree the need to clarify the program as the quote above is ambiguous. I could interpret it as I get the full value of my investment on the old gear as trade in for SC gear  - it doe snot specify box for box parity, it only says "value".

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davidspitzer
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June 19, 2012, 08:50:53 PM
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I agree the need to clarify the program as the quote above is ambiguous. I could interpret it as I get the full value of my investment on the old gear as trade in for SC gear  - it doe snot specify box for box parity, it only says "value".

Nope. They used the terms 'equivalent'....and phrase 'when used towards the purchase'....

Looks pretty clear to me.

Matters of unresolved fact, reasonable minds may differ. I think it is speculation on both our parts until BFL defines the program in more detail. The two quotes below are from different sources at BFL seem to have non conforming terms. Neither one matters until actionable terms and conditions are published

"Upon release of BitForce SC based Singles & Mini Rigs, all previous generation BitForce products will enjoy a full 100% trade in value when used towards the purchase of the newer generation replacements."

and

 At that time,  your units can be traded in towards an upgrade to equivalent BitForce SC based replacements.


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June 19, 2012, 08:58:48 PM
 #17

Matters of unresolved fact, reasonable minds may differ. I think it is speculation on both our parts until BFL defines the program in more detail. the two quotes from different sources at BFL seem to have non conforming terms. Neither one matters until actionable terms and conditions are published

"Upon release of BitForce SC based Singles & Mini Rigs, all previous generation BitForce products will enjoy a full 100% trade in value when used towards the purchase of the newer generation replacements."

and

 At that time,  your units can be traded in towards an upgrade to equivalent BitForce SC based replacements.

Does TRADING IN a $600 Bitforce Single for 4x $150 Jalapenos constitute a PURCHASE ?

Are 2 current $15,000 Mini-Rigs the EQUIVALENT of a $30,000 ASIC Mini-Rig ?

Looks like they were just vague enough to keep the new orders rolling in.....HOOK, LINE and SINKER.

Correct, the terms are too vague to be construed as an offer of any type. The real meat of the offer will come adorned with multiple pages of terms and conditions surrounding and enveloping it in a dizzying cloak of legal obfuscation. I can't wait to see it Smiley

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June 19, 2012, 09:05:43 PM
 #18

Well let me ask you this. What other alternatives are there? I mean people are going to buy the 1TH monsters, the difficulty will jump (how high is anyone's guess).

What can anyone really do about it? Let me think...nothing!!!

For all this to work we have to roll with the body-blows as well as the praise.

Tired of substandard power distribution in your ASIC setup???   Chris' Custom Cablez will get you sorted out right!  No job too hard so PM me for a quote
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June 19, 2012, 09:17:06 PM
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Well let me ask you this. What other alternatives are there? I mean people are going to buy the 1TH monsters, the difficulty will jump (how high is anyone's guess).
What can anyone really do about it? Let me think...nothing!!!
For all this to work we have to roll with the body-blows as well as the praise.

In my last revamp, late spring, I purchased myself 15 new 7970s @ $6,000 to hold me over until all of the new Technology uncertainty was cleared up, leaving ASICs ONLY as my next upgrade.
By the time the reward HALVES, my cards will have paid for themselves and I will then sell them @ 100% profit.

NOW, once my cards are sold in December to Gamers on Ebay, even at half price, I can take that $3,000 and invest it back into ASICs and be (literally) 10X better off than I was before.

ON THE FLIPSIDE...

Take those users who 'shot the wad' to purchase TONS of BFL hardware, that will essentially be worth NOTHING if they keep it and will only end up forcing them to spend MORE, just to get back on top where they were before.
Sure, some might see this as a great deal....but what about THOSE who STRUGGLED to buy 1x Mini-Rig @ $15,000 ? How easy will it be to come up with another $15,000 just to be competitive again, rather than being left with a $15,000/25 GH DOOR STOP when that SAME Mining power will be purchased by NEW buyers at a FRACTION of the price ?

I do not regret using my Video Cards as a temp solution.....and am actually THANKFUL I did, rather than buying BFL hardware at the time.

Again, why are you so concerned with other people's money problems?  Be thankful that you made what you believe to be the right decision, and let the cards fall where they will for everyone else.
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June 19, 2012, 09:17:22 PM
 #20

Take those users who 'shot the wad' to purchase TONS of BFL hardware, that will essentially be worth NOTHING if they keep it and will only end up forcing them to spend MORE, just to get back on top where they were before.
Sure, some might see this as a great deal....but what about THOSE who STRUGGLED to buy 1x Mini-Rig @ $15,000 ? How easy will it be to come up with another $15,000 just to be competitive again, rather than being left with a $15,000/25 GH DOOR STOP when that SAME Mining power will be purchased by NEW buyers at a FRACTION of the price ?

This is the exact scenario that is going to very bad for BFL if bitlane's conclusions are true. Unfortunately, we'll have to wait for BFL to clarify.

+1 for clarification
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