Selling Bitcoins on eBay analysis

[virtualfaqs]

I started selling bitcoins on eBay to answer 2 questions.

1. Are people really raking in super profits selling at 2x the market price or is it all scammers?
2. Do eBay accounts with 20+ feedback actually scam 1 BTC ($5 value at the time) or eBay sellers just being scammed by hacked accounts?

I'm a eBay seller 400+ feedback and another 200+ feedback on a different site selling digital goods.

To sum it all up:

In the span of 20 days, I've only sold 3 BTC at a very modest 40% over market price to 1 bidder. Bidder had 100 feedback and verified by phone call and email.

I've had 10 auctions end with a high bidder. 7 auction winners had immediate red flags so I refunded those payments after a few days and requested eBay credit the fees.
Pro tip: Refund fraudulent payments before the real owner files a chargeback.

I'm not the seller here, but this is what you have to deal with.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/41-Bitcoin-electronically-delivered-to-your-wallet-/251083541590?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a75becc56

0 BTC lost so far. (Probably jinxed myself with this statement. haha)

There may be others out there with better luck but these are my results.

[1713565176]

1713565176

[1713565176]

1713565176

[1713565176]

1713565176

[1713565176]

1713565176

[DILLIGAF]

In the span of 20 days

None of my charge backs came until the 45-60 day range once started it was like a 50% rate overall.

[malaimult]

ebay has been a target for scammers for a long long time. don't be stunned if they want your btcs.

[Stephen Gornick]

I'm a eBay seller 400+ feedback and another 200+ feedback on a different site selling digital goods.

You'll likely see that account get suspended doing this.

 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67137.0
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84400.msg931307#msg931307

[virtualfaqs]

None of my charge backs came until the 45-60 day range once started it was like a 50% rate overall.

That's a definite possibility if the owner of the hacked PayPal account doesn't notice until 45 days later. However do you know if it was the actual eBay buyer who chargebacked or was it hacked? Because there are so many eBay sellers who claim every single person from 0 to 1000 feedback is a scammer, and I don't believe that.

CoinPal was able to get their fraud rate under 1% before they were closed by PayPal and that was random strangers with no eBay feedback.

You'll likely see that account get suspended doing this.

 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67137.0
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84400.msg931307#msg931307

You're not posting anything I don't already know. As far as I can tell, I'm the only one following eBay and PayPal rules other than Casacius of course. The point of doing this isn't to see whether there are scammers on eBay. We already know there are. The point is to see whether buyers with decent feedback are tempted to chargeback BTC after getting them.

[HonorMe]

Its all scammers. In no world would someone pay 2x the price of BTC just because of the ease of Paypal.

[virtualfaqs]

Its all scammers. In no world would someone pay 2x the price of BTC just because of the ease of Paypal.

This was what I wasn't sure about, but still wanted to confirm it myself. I've talked to a lot of sellers selling 2x the price who were getting scammed. But again I don't think it's really farfetched to find 1 guy who trusts eBay seller feedback who wants to pay with PayPal to buy a few BTC. Of course there are a lot more BTC sellers competing for fewer buyers.

[mc_lovin]

I made a ton selling coins on eBay, and got the money for them as well.

What I did was say "NO REFUNDS WHATSOEVER" in the description and in the Paypal info, and said the user needed to put their wallet address in the paypal comments.  I also stated that there would be no refunds in any case, and there will be video proof of the transaction taking place, to prove the coins were sent to the address in the paypal checkout.  I sold like thousands of dollars worth of coins, listed at $20-25+ each (back in july 2011) and scammers would buy them up like $500 at a time. 

The scammers would do a reversal on the transaction in a systematic fashion, and since I used Freez Screen Video Capture to make videos of myself transferring the coins to the person's wallet that they entered in the paypal reciept (which was open and evident in the video), it served as solid proof.  Paypal returned 100% of the money to me, with the exception of one small transaction where the person did a reversal on their credit card.. Paypal couldn't help that.

When you do a transaction dispute, and they look at the video, there is no denying it. 

I paid for ALL my mining equipment with the coins that I sold to would-be scammers on eBay last summer!

eBay has since changed its policies quite a bit, I don't think it's safe to sell coins there anymore unless they were casascius, a "bitcoin cheque", or a private key on a piece of paper that you can physically mail to them and get a tracking number, since that is allowed.

[virtualfaqs]

The scammers would do a reversal on the transaction in a systematic fashion, and since I used Freez Screen Video Capture to make videos of myself transferring the coins to the person's wallet that they entered in the paypal reciept (which was open and evident in the video), it served as solid proof.  Paypal returned 100% of the money to me, with the exception of one small transaction where the person did a reversal on their credit card.. Paypal couldn't help that.

When you do a transaction dispute, and they look at the video, there is no denying it. 

I paid for ALL my mining equipment with the coins that I sold to would-be scammers on eBay last summer!

eBay has since changed its policies quite a bit, I don't think it's safe to sell coins there anymore unless they were casascius, a "bitcoin cheque", or a private key on a piece of paper that you can physically mail to them and get a tracking number, since that is allowed.

In my experience, PayPal will side with the seller in terms of intangibles as I'ved stated before unless it's an unauthorized dispute. I'm not really sure how effective your proof was a result of my previous statement. Credit cards will side with buyers and they override PayPal's decision.

Physical delivery of anything isn't safe either since there's almost no way to show the actual contents delivered are the correct contents.

[mc_lovin]

*snip*

Physical delivery of anything isn't safe either since there's almost no way to show the actual contents delivered are the correct contents.

But you can give Paypal a tracking number if there is a dispute and you can prove the item was shipped, it doesn't really matter the condition of the contents as long as they are clearly stated in the description.

[virtualfaqs]

But you can give Paypal a tracking number if there is a dispute and you can prove the item was shipped, it doesn't really matter the condition of the contents as long as they are clearly stated in the description.

Like I said before, I'm more afraid of a chargeback rather than a "normal" PayPal dispute. In general, the credit card will side with the buyer if they don't have a good idea what's going on. It's extremely difficult to prove what you stated in the description is actually what you shipped to a credit card transaction dispute. So to me, shipping a physical item is moot. I only use it to satisfy eBay's no intangible goods auction policy.

[virtualfaqs]

The Ebay fees from the scammers bidding on my auction are killing me.

There's only 2 ways to get back your final value fee.
1. The buyer agrees to return it which isn't going to happen.
2. eBay investigates and finds the buyer at fault. Then refunds you. This won't happen unless there are enough complaints.

So is there a way to make sure no US residents or better yet make it so no one can bid on your auctions?

I was tweaking around with changing my item location or opening an international location, but I'm thinking of just selling less than 0.1 BTC to keep the bids low and maybe private auction for those buying more than 0.1 BTC.

Edit: Looks like it might take 7-10 days after closing a deadbeat bidder case to get a refund. I'll let you guys know the results.

[TTBit]

Potential stupid question: Would it be safer to sell a PDF with a private key on it, rather than "sending" coins? Is digital delivered content harder for a chargeback?

[virtualfaqs]

Potential stupid question: Would it be safer to sell a PDF with a private key on it, rather than "sending" coins? Is digital delivered content harder for a chargeback?

There are no stupid questions when it comes to this matter. Just people passing misinformation.

Imagine an arbitrator with no intangible goods background having to resolve a dispute between you and the scammer. I suppose if the argument was the PDF wasn't received you may have a chance to win that if you can prove it was sent. But if the dispute was the PDF had the incorrect info then your chances to winning are slim.

Basically if you get in situation that you're dealing with a chargeback, you've most likely already lost. Your efforts should be concentrated on prevention.

[mc_lovin]

Potential stupid question: Would it be safer to sell a PDF with a private key on it, rather than "sending" coins? Is digital delivered content harder for a chargeback?

if I were you i'd put the private key on a piece of paper and mail it to him.. but that's just my opinion.

[Stephen Gornick]

Potential stupid question: Would it be safer to sell a PDF with a private key on it, rather than "sending" coins? Is digital delivered content harder for a chargeback?

if I were you i'd put the private key on a piece of paper and mail it to him.. but that's just my opinion.

Like it really matters?

I got suspended for selling paperclips with free bitcoins 2 days ago, and yes i sent the damn clips with a tracking number. They want all kind of documents to re-enable my account. I had only positive votes with them but the fees are killing me so i think i will pass doing something about it. They will get to know bitcoin in the end.

[virtualfaqs]

Like it really matters?

^ This!

[virtualfaqs]

People like this make me sick.
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=AllFeedback&userid=maryeebat5916&iid=-1&de=off&items=25&interval=0&mPg=2&page=1

Person also bought from me when she had 0 feedback so I refunded it.

I have no doubt all 29 transactions will be chargebacked. So far this buyer has bought all non-refundable gift cards, certificates and BTC. And sellers can't leave negative for buyers anymore. Who buys a gift certificate for twice the face value?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/110910869210 $50 Amazon Gift card for $102.50 and another auction 1 BTC for $25

[FLHippy]

I made a ton selling coins on eBay, and got the money for them as well.

What I did was say "NO REFUNDS WHATSOEVER" in the description and in the Paypal info, and said the user needed to put their wallet address in the paypal comments.  I also stated that there would be no refunds in any case, and there will be video proof of the transaction taking place, to prove the coins were sent to the address in the paypal checkout.  I sold like thousands of dollars worth of coins, listed at $20-25+ each (back in july 2011) and scammers would buy them up like $500 at a time. 

The scammers would do a reversal on the transaction in a systematic fashion, and since I used Freez Screen Video Capture to make videos of myself transferring the coins to the person's wallet that they entered in the paypal reciept (which was open and evident in the video), it served as solid proof.  Paypal returned 100% of the money to me, with the exception of one small transaction where the person did a reversal on their credit card.. Paypal couldn't help that.

When you do a transaction dispute, and they look at the video, there is no denying it. 

I paid for ALL my mining equipment with the coins that I sold to would-be scammers on eBay last summer!

eBay has since changed its policies quite a bit, I don't think it's safe to sell coins there anymore unless they were casascius, a "bitcoin cheque", or a private key on a piece of paper that you can physically mail to them and get a tracking number, since that is allowed.

I'm sure you believe this and perhaps you've had really good luck but I think it's important to people who are new to selling coins on eBay to know that this entire post is utter bullshit.

Unless you have a tracking number from the shipping forms used on PayPal you're fucked. And then you still might be fucked. I've been selling on eBay for well over a year now. My mistakes and the mistakes made by others have shown me that you need to ship a physical product, you need to use the paypal shipping interface, and you need to be very very very very wary...

If you come to a ebay/paypal dispute with a screenshot or a video, they're going to laugh at you.

Ship paper coins, or metal coins. You'll still get scammed but less often.

[TTBit]

How long does the buyer have in order to initiate a chargeback?

When we come up with the idea for LBAAT.net, I thought selling coins past any chargeback period would shift the favor to the sellers of BTC and away from the buyers. Got stuck with a chargeback? At least you can race to get the coins back.

"4-D" banking concept:
Seller can submit the private key to LBAAT, and it will move coins to a pre-determined address in case of a chargeback (same point in the future, just different address). This is set up before coins were offered for sale. This means the seller could scam freely, but shift the burden to buyer.