BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg

[dzimbeck]

What is the scale-ability of Bitbay and Blackcoin?? How many transactions can be handled per minute?

What happens to the dollar peg if the dollar hyper-inflates and the new global trade settlement standard becomes gold?? I expect this by 2020 and Probably a lot sooner. do you have time frame for when your are going to attempt a dollar peg?

The peg might not be hard set at a dollar because that (might) require freezing a good deal of coins, we will roll the peg upwards to that target and see when the volume increases and choose the target price by voting. Of course we could set it to a dollar but that might impact volume if the price gets too high we can inflate again. So we should release it and roll it up to the target gradually. The coin itself will be the market maker. It will certainly be much higher than this price though. The only challenge will be making sure the exchange doesnt oversell and runs our API. So the API will return two classes of funds: Frozen and Liquid. (or maybe BitBay and BitBayReserve not sure of the name yet)

Those two classes of funds mind you are on the exact same blockchain, its just that the exchanges need to tell you if funds freeze while on the exchange. It wont impact withdraws since I'm adding an exception to allow transfers of frozen funds with a 3 month time lock.


Blackcoin and Bitbay have similar limits to Bitcoin as the block size i think is the same. However UNLIKE the stubborn Bitcoin foundation we can do whatever the heck we want. So if we need to allow bigger blocks, then we will. If we decide on a lightning network, we will. Lukcily, we dont have to worry yet.

Bitcoin of course has a serious scalability problem. And I'm thinking the lightning network certainly helps take the load off it. Because you can link IOUS through a payment network. It (could) works like this:

My version of the lightning network is a bit different from the Bitcoin foundations... but the theory is the same.

Lets say there are only 5 people in the economy. Bob, Alice, John, Joe and Sara

Bob and Alice set up an account with each other
Sara sets up an account with Bob
John sets up an account with Sara
And Joe sets up an account with John

NOW when you want to make a payment you route an IOU. If Bob owes Joe money, he tells Sara who tells John who tells Joe and they each carry the debt to their neighbor. And this can be done using micropayments.

They do it using locktimes, each settlement clearing every month or so. But they RENEW those debts monthly.

If they dont renew the debt, they report it to the blockchain.

Thus the blockchain is only used to report errors. Accounts are set up so early withdraw is allowed but debts were written to replace old transactions.

Servers can hold on to copies, so can peers. In any case, they might only care about what is relevant to them. They would want to know, how much everyone has and check those balances with their peers.

In the end, the blockchain is only used to report errors and early withdraws or transactions made outside the lightning network. This was one interesting solution to bloat that I've seen. Of course the blockchain can still get bloated but mostly it would get larger to due notary.

Multisignature might get more complicated on a lightning network though. Im sure the theory is the same though since only debts are routed, there is no reason we cant build on it in the same way, multisignature accounts are still just accounts. Each time an account is made, you only need to find a person to pair with. If you are stuck not finding a pair then just do the transaction on the blockchain which would be a last resort.

In multisignature, can a 3 of 3 or 10 of 10 account find itself in default if an angry partner broadcasts early thus allowing their pair to interfere and withdraw? And what if they collude with the pair? So there are legitimate questions about the limits of lightning network. And one might just be certain types of multisignature and notary exchange.

Now with freezing and unfreezing on top of lightning networks things might get really complex. Most likely withdraw transactions will need to have copies that bypass the freeze with 3 month locks for the maximum inflation or deflation predicted in the month.

Bitcoin foundation had the idea of lightning network where everyone shares with a central hub that routes payments. But that solution is pseudocentralized since if the hub goes down everyone needs to withdraw. Whereas in my example, only the effected parties withdraw. And its more decentralized.

Technically the lightning network works because of locktimes. You set a locktime for a payment with a temporary private key and to replace the payment you make another transaction where the lock is sooner so if they try to spend the incorrect one, the key is revealed and you can take their money since you hold a version of the transaction with an earlier lock! Its pretty cool stuff.

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[dzimbeck]

What is the scale-ability of Bitbay and Blackcoin?? How many transactions can be handled per minute?

What happens to the dollar peg if the dollar hyper-inflates and the new global trade settlement standard becomes gold?? I expect this by 2020 and Probably a lot sooner. do you have time frame for when your are going to attempt a dollar peg?

Anyways, scalability is still an issue. However with Pegging currencies it might be possible that people can issue their own currencies for each community and peg it to other larger ones. Thus, their blockchain is secured by their community and buying and selling those can be purely based on their resale value.

Im guessing Bitcoin needs to be rewritten entirely and Etherium is making the bloat problem worse. Of course, both those currencies are heading for a centralized future whereas we are looking at a decentralized one. Pegging and lightning networks are a huge step for that. Combined with smart contracts its almost an entirely complete, self surviving economy. It should be noted, the smaller the economy the more likely the trust is broken and the higher the probability for conspiracy to large aggressive groups to take funds from people. The bigger the economy, the more likely the blockchains rules are kept honest however the hard it is to fork and the harder it is to prevent centralization. Technology might get better and help us have bigger hard drives and more bandwidth so there is still hope. There is a sweet spot somewhere here. So we still need to make sure any economy is large and has a good method of P2P fraud prevention and verification.

Etherium contracts should definitely be stored off the chain. And preapproved by miners as safe. So they are just really making the problem worse unless their end goal is centralized servers.

[toknormal]

All known Bays now moved to cold wallets as this project seems to be going somewhere.

(Mine have been on exchanges for over a year).

Also, no significant liquidity left at published price.

[toknormal]

Of course, both those currencies are heading for a centralized future whereas we are looking at a decentralized one. Pegging and lightning networks are a huge step for that.

Could you clarify that remark ?

It reads: "Pegging and Blockstream's Lightning Network are a huge step forward for decentralisation". Is that what you meant to say ?

[Munti]

What happens to the dollar peg if the dollar hyper-inflates and the new global trade settlement standard becomes gold?? I expect this by 2020 and Probably a lot sooner. do you have time frame for when your are going to attempt a dollar peg?

There is absolutely no reason to expect gold to become the new global trade settlement standard. The gold standard was abandoned for a number of reasons.
As to the US dollar and hyper inflation, that's an unlikely scenario as well. However, if that should happen, it's not a problem. I assume you have noticed that David has been talking about a "rolling peg". That means BitBay will not be locked at a defined value versus US$ forever. Think about BitBays peg as a stabilizer. It's there to remove the volatility that you normally find in small markets like altcoins, bitcoin, and pennystocks. With the peg in place you can expect BitBay price to move more similar to mature markets like fiat, bonds, and blue chip stock. So, since the price is allowed to move, we can compensate if there are big movements in US$. If the US$ should become totally erratic, we can always peg to any other currency or commodity. A mix of currencies would be my preferred solution. I suspect that's what we will do in the long run, but we have to start somewhere, and pegging to US$ is where we have decided to start.

[dzimbeck]

Of course, both those currencies are heading for a centralized future whereas we are looking at a decentralized one. Pegging and lightning networks are a huge step for that.

Could you clarify that remark ?

It reads: "Pegging and Blockstream's Lightning Network are a huge step forward for decentralisation". Is that what you meant to say ?

Blockstream wasnt the first ones to propose it at least I highly doubt it... and the way i had it visualized was different from the one described here...

http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=450

The above link was where i first saw it.

And besides, its just an idea, in the end it doesnt matter which company accomplishes it as long as it comes into the market. Ive currently got no time to work on something like that... obviously there is enough work to be completed here. But I hope to see it brought to market by any dedicated coders or company.

[dzimbeck]

What happens to the dollar peg if the dollar hyper-inflates and the new global trade settlement standard becomes gold?? I expect this by 2020 and Probably a lot sooner. do you have time frame for when your are going to attempt a dollar peg?

There is absolutely no reason to expect gold to become the new global trade settlement standard. The gold standard was abandoned for a number of reasons.
As to the US dollar and hyper inflation, that's an unlikely scenario as well. However, if that should happen, it's not a problem. I assume you have noticed that David has been talking about a "rolling peg". That means BitBay will not be locked at a defined value versus US$ forever. Think about BitBays peg as a stabilizer. It's there to remove the volatility that you normally find in small markets like altcoins, bitcoin, and pennystocks. With the peg in place you can expect BitBay price to move more similar to mature markets like fiat, bonds, and blue chip stock. So, since the price is allowed to move, we can compensate if there are big movements in US$. If the US$ should become totally erratic, we can always peg to any other currency or commodity. A mix of currencies would be my preferred solution. I suspect that's what we will do in the long run, but we have to start somewhere, and pegging to US$ is where we have decided to start.

EXACTLY, if the USD starts devaluing, we wouldn't want to sink with the ship!! The good thing about it being done this way is the price can grow and then stabilize. Of course, we have to make sure not to overgrow it!

Honestly it would be a great success if we can see profits for all of the patient investors.

[warper]

What is the scale-ability of Bitbay and Blackcoin?? How many transactions can be handled per minute?

What happens to the dollar peg if the dollar hyper-inflates and the new global trade settlement standard becomes gold?? I expect this by 2020 and Probably a lot sooner. do you have time frame for when your are going to attempt a dollar peg?

The peg might not be hard set at a dollar...

Regarding pegs, I'd like to bring the following analysis on the subjet from the "nubits" experience. I jope it is useful for Bitbay:

...
Conclusion

In short, NuBits uses increases in its total supply (through various ways) and thus inflation as the only method to combat both an increasing and decreasing price. This might be able to hold for a while, but leaves nothing but a time bomb waiting to go off. The developers might have created NuBits with the best intentions, but until any adjustments have been made it is advised to avoid from this digital currency. A discussion on the discussed problem and possible improvements can be joined on the NuBits forum here.

source: Details and Shortcomings of NuBits

[dzimbeck]

What is the scale-ability of Bitbay and Blackcoin?? How many transactions can be handled per minute?

What happens to the dollar peg if the dollar hyper-inflates and the new global trade settlement standard becomes gold?? I expect this by 2020 and Probably a lot sooner. do you have time frame for when your are going to attempt a dollar peg?

The peg might not be hard set at a dollar...

Regarding pegs, I'd like to bring the following analysis on the subjet from the "nubits" experience. I jope it is useful for Bitbay:

...
Conclusion

In short, NuBits uses increases in its total supply (through various ways) and thus inflation as the only method to combat both an increasing and decreasing price. This might be able to hold for a while, but leaves nothing but a time bomb waiting to go off. The developers might have created NuBits with the best intentions, but until any adjustments have been made it is advised to avoid from this digital currency. A discussion on the discussed problem and possible improvements can be joined on the NuBits forum here.

source: Details and Shortcomings of NuBits

Yeah I'm aware of this, however the pegging proposal here is a decentralized fractional system.

So coins are tagged as to how they freeze and unfreeze.

Example, lets say the deflation rate is 50%

And someone had coins that he never spent since it was 100% inflated (0% deflated)

Then he tries to spend.

Miners force him to send 50% back to himself tagged as frozen 100-50 which is basically his coins divisible in 50 parts.
Then the remainder he wants to send is now liquid 50-0 which is liquid coins set to deflate in at least 50 parts.

If the currency inflates again the user can spend some of his frozen coins.
Lets say it inflates 5%
Then he can unfreeze 5/50ths of his frozen coins and tag them a liquid divisible in 5 parts over 5 points.

Merchants will always require good quality coins and this is all going to be done under the hood.

Frozen coins can be transferred when totally frozen under one condition: That you put at least a 3 month time lock on it. At least im leaning towards a 3 month exemption but it should be in the range of 1-6 months.

This is superior to NuBits because its totally decentralized. There is no custodial addresses, there is no sustainability problem, there is no voluntary parking. Nubits suffers from major front running/inflation/centralization problems all of which are solved here.

This creates a series of asset classes based on how much liquidity your coins have. It also allows us to roll prices up and down by controlling the supply. AND it doesnt favor the rich, anyone who held coins that froze will benefit by having them released later.

And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.

Thats the core idea, I've been in discussions about how to make it user friendly which is the first priority. This is the basic core principals and we can build on it from there.

Deflation/Inflation per day will probably be 1-2% and might follow a sort of linear curve where that is more of a target rate. Although im still deciding over the minor details.

[warper]

wow!

I'm glad to know this.

Thank you.

btw, I have installed the Bitbay market here. It looks great!

[edmundduke]

What is the scale-ability of Bitbay and Blackcoin?? How many transactions can be handled per minute?

What happens to the dollar peg if the dollar hyper-inflates and the new global trade settlement standard becomes gold?? I expect this by 2020 and Probably a lot sooner. do you have time frame for when your are going to attempt a dollar peg?

The peg might not be hard set at a dollar...

Regarding pegs, I'd like to bring the following analysis on the subjet from the "nubits" experience. I jope it is useful for Bitbay:

...
Conclusion

In short, NuBits uses increases in its total supply (through various ways) and thus inflation as the only method to combat both an increasing and decreasing price. This might be able to hold for a while, but leaves nothing but a time bomb waiting to go off. The developers might have created NuBits with the best intentions, but until any adjustments have been made it is advised to avoid from this digital currency. A discussion on the discussed problem and possible improvements can be joined on the NuBits forum here.

source: Details and Shortcomings of NuBits

Yeah I'm aware of this, however the pegging proposal here is a decentralized fractional system.

So coins are tagged as to how they freeze and unfreeze.

Example, lets say the deflation rate is 50%

And someone had coins that he never spent since it was 100% inflated (0% deflated)

Then he tries to spend.

Miners force him to send 50% back to himself tagged as frozen 100-50 which is basically his coins divisible in 50 parts.
Then the remainder he wants to send is now liquid 50-0 which is liquid coins set to deflate in at least 50 parts.

If the currency inflates again the user can spend some of his frozen coins.
Lets say it inflates 5%
Then he can unfreeze 5/50ths of his frozen coins and tag them a liquid divisible in 5 parts over 5 points.

Merchants will always require good quality coins and this is all going to be done under the hood.

Frozen coins can be transferred when totally frozen under one condition: That you put at least a 3 month time lock on it. At least im leaning towards a 3 month exemption but it should be in the range of 1-6 months.

This is superior to NuBits because its totally decentralized. There is no custodial addresses, there is no sustainability problem, there is no voluntary parking. Nubits suffers from major front running/inflation/centralization problems all of which are solved here.

This creates a series of asset classes based on how much liquidity your coins have. It also allows us to roll prices up and down by controlling the supply. AND it doesnt favor the rich, anyone who held coins that froze will benefit by having them released later.

And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.

Thats the core idea, I've been in discussions about how to make it user friendly which is the first priority. This is the basic core principals and we can build on it from there.

Deflation/Inflation per day will probably be 1-2% and might follow a sort of linear curve where that is more of a target rate. Although im still deciding over the minor details.

This seems like a pretty good way of doing it. Takes a lot to fully understand how it works tho, toke me a few reads and im still sure i didnt fully get it lol. The main thing is that it happens under the hood and the user does not need to worry about it. The best way is the trustless part, makes everything so much better. And yes, it has to be user friendly to gain mass adoption because that is the only real way to go, to reach out to people outside of cyrpto also.

[illodin]

Which is the official source repository:

https://github.com/bitbayteam/bitbay
or
https://github.com/oxidian/BitBay

it should be oxidian, however, I'm going to update that to my github shortly, ive got better source since oxidians source is missing files... the qt wallet was poorly done, thats why you cant build the daemon from it.

We might fork early for staking to move entirely to the markets wallet but i need to test the new staking commands first.

Thanks, the QT wallet built successfully on Ubuntu.

[albert_mt]

good to see the project is getting closer and closer to the start!!!! keep up the good work!

[the_wolf]

This is how I feel about BitBay....

https://i.imgur.com/0JQV1hA.jpg

[toknormal]

good to see the project is getting closer and closer to the start!!!! keep up the good work!

And I've just made 18 bay from staking.

[dzimbeck]

What is the scale-ability of Bitbay and Blackcoin?? How many transactions can be handled per minute?

What happens to the dollar peg if the dollar hyper-inflates and the new global trade settlement standard becomes gold?? I expect this by 2020 and Probably a lot sooner. do you have time frame for when your are going to attempt a dollar peg?

The peg might not be hard set at a dollar...

Regarding pegs, I'd like to bring the following analysis on the subjet from the "nubits" experience. I jope it is useful for Bitbay:

...
Conclusion

In short, NuBits uses increases in its total supply (through various ways) and thus inflation as the only method to combat both an increasing and decreasing price. This might be able to hold for a while, but leaves nothing but a time bomb waiting to go off. The developers might have created NuBits with the best intentions, but until any adjustments have been made it is advised to avoid from this digital currency. A discussion on the discussed problem and possible improvements can be joined on the NuBits forum here.

source: Details and Shortcomings of NuBits

Yeah I'm aware of this, however the pegging proposal here is a decentralized fractional system.

So coins are tagged as to how they freeze and unfreeze.

Example, lets say the deflation rate is 50%

And someone had coins that he never spent since it was 100% inflated (0% deflated)

Then he tries to spend.

Miners force him to send 50% back to himself tagged as frozen 100-50 which is basically his coins divisible in 50 parts.
Then the remainder he wants to send is now liquid 50-0 which is liquid coins set to deflate in at least 50 parts.

If the currency inflates again the user can spend some of his frozen coins.
Lets say it inflates 5%
Then he can unfreeze 5/50ths of his frozen coins and tag them a liquid divisible in 5 parts over 5 points.

Merchants will always require good quality coins and this is all going to be done under the hood.

Frozen coins can be transferred when totally frozen under one condition: That you put at least a 3 month time lock on it. At least im leaning towards a 3 month exemption but it should be in the range of 1-6 months.

This is superior to NuBits because its totally decentralized. There is no custodial addresses, there is no sustainability problem, there is no voluntary parking. Nubits suffers from major front running/inflation/centralization problems all of which are solved here.

This creates a series of asset classes based on how much liquidity your coins have. It also allows us to roll prices up and down by controlling the supply. AND it doesnt favor the rich, anyone who held coins that froze will benefit by having them released later.

And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.

Thats the core idea, I've been in discussions about how to make it user friendly which is the first priority. This is the basic core principals and we can build on it from there.

Deflation/Inflation per day will probably be 1-2% and might follow a sort of linear curve where that is more of a target rate. Although im still deciding over the minor details.

This seems like a pretty good way of doing it. Takes a lot to fully understand how it works tho, toke me a few reads and im still sure i didnt fully get it lol. The main thing is that it happens under the hood and the user does not need to worry about it. The best way is the trustless part, makes everything so much better. And yes, it has to be user friendly to gain mass adoption because that is the only real way to go, to reach out to people outside of cyrpto also.

Well, I'm going to try and make as much under the hood as possible. Because understanding the technical details requires a high level knowledge of what Bitcoin actually is. I'm not sure if I should explain that here or just save it for people to read somewhere else for the ones who are really curious. There is a few challenges in helping users understand it. There is a question of what basic users need to know. Should they know that different coins freeze at different speeds? Perhaps if they request it in the client, sure but it will not be immediately visible. Minimum liquidity requirements for sending can prevent them from noticing that their coins freeze slightly faster or slightly slower depending on which ones they received. I could explain much more technical details here but perhaps it would be too much. hahaha

At a minimum, they need to know their funds freeze and unfreeze. The end goal is to make that the only new concept for basic users to understand.

[dmz241]

My old hard drive got corrupted. I was running the the market less wallet. I have just downloaded the wallet again but its not starting to sync any help in this regard would be great.

[dzimbeck]

My old hard drive got corrupted. I was running the the market less wallet. I have just downloaded the wallet again but its not starting to sync any help in this regard would be great.

I responded to your PM and also gave you a troubleshooting step for this

[3r197]

And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.

Yea I can't wait to see the possibilities that pan out from these ideas ^^

And I love that you see the importance of creating a voting system so as not to send the coin down a dead end path like bitcoin and litecoin seem to be on.
It shouldn't be up to a handful of people to decide what new innovations should be incorporated into the coin.

[dmz241]

My old hard drive got corrupted. I was running the the market less wallet. I have just downloaded the wallet again but its not starting to sync any help in this regard would be great.

I responded to your PM and also gave you a troubleshooting step for this

thanks the matter was solved.