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Author Topic: Bitcoin is NOT a decentralize currency  (Read 5389 times)
knight22
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June 26, 2012, 05:12:48 PM
 #61

In that case we can only hope the big holders will spend their bitcoin with a responsible manner... and this is something we can never be sure about

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June 26, 2012, 05:47:22 PM
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It's also something we can't be sure about in the 'real' economy. Wars are to a large extent caused by 'irresponsible' spending of resources.

-bgc

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June 26, 2012, 05:57:55 PM
 #63

I agree that every person who holds coins have not to be equally wealthy but the problem is when the imbalance is way to big, it's give control to the holder on the value of the currency.
I told you the rich people are relatively KNOWN and it is KNOWN that they do NOT hold all that much money.

There is NO single person out there with 99,9% of all bitcoins who can use it as monopoly money.

If that WAS the case I might agree with you, but its not, so admit that fact or make it obvious you are trolling.
Quote
Also, it is false to say that this person can dump is currency only once. Of course, he will do it in a manner that a huge amount will come back to him again (investment, companies, assets, etc)
If he "dumps" for companies or investments then he is just using BTC for normal trade which is a GOOD thing.

Manipulation of currency is per definition something unnatural... like printing or confiscating etc.

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When a person or a group of person are in control of the value, IT IS CENTRALIZE. And no matter how you will call it, the problem still remain.
Yes... but no one is with bitcoin.

So what do you call it then? That's right de-centralized.

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knight22
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June 26, 2012, 06:24:59 PM
 #64

I told you the rich people are relatively KNOWN and it is KNOWN that they do NOT hold all that much money.

There is NO single person out there with 99,9% of all bitcoins who can use it as monopoly money.

If that WAS the case I might agree with you, but its not, so admit that fact or make it obvious you are trolling.


OK then but do you have any numbers to share?

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June 26, 2012, 06:32:34 PM
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Look at the numbers in Jon Matonis' article here:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2012/06/22/the-bitcoin-richest-accumulating-large-balances/

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June 26, 2012, 06:41:40 PM
 #66

OK then but do you have any numbers to share?
BTC is pretty hard to track, however there is a known genesis block that is the first block.

That was created about 3-4 years ago and the BTC generation has been steady since by protocol design.

This means that even if satoshi was the ONLY miner the first YEAR he still "only" has 2.628.000 BTC or ~17 mil $ or what must be ~12.5% of all bitcoin there will ever be.

That is a long long way from 99.9% and likely far from what anyone has, as there have been multiple and different miners for most of bitcoins time and they likely used at least some of their coins before the value went way up.

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June 26, 2012, 06:45:40 PM
 #67

How a currency that approx 50% is held by a few people can be stated as a decentralize money? These people together can influence the value of bitcoin with their spending. In a way, they are in control of it's value and saying that it is fully decentralize is only a lie. The more the bitcoin will be valuable, the more they will be able to be in control. Unproportional holding of a currency is never good for the majority.
the 50% of the bitcoins have not yet been mined.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
knight22
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June 26, 2012, 06:46:14 PM
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Well I guest 12.5% of total holding is not enough to control but only influence the value. That is reassuring me.

Thanks for sharing.

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June 26, 2012, 06:47:48 PM
 #69

I told you the rich people are relatively KNOWN and it is KNOWN that they do NOT hold all that much money.

There is NO single person out there with 99,9% of all bitcoins who can use it as monopoly money.

If that WAS the case I might agree with you, but its not, so admit that fact or make it obvious you are trolling.


OK then but do you have any numbers to share?


Do you?  I can personally know for certain that it's impossible that anyone else has 99.9% of bitcoins, because I have direct evidence that there are several people that have enough to total to over 0.1% of said coins. 

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 26, 2012, 07:00:37 PM
 #70

In that case we can only hope the big holders will spend their bitcoin with a responsible manner... and this is something we can never be sure about

Yes! Onward to bitOrwllianism comrade!  We can only achieve decentralization by centralizing control to ensure that it is decentralized.

I like the cut of your jib.

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June 27, 2012, 09:55:17 AM
 #71


Well I guest 12.5% of total holding is not enough to control but only influence the value. That is reassuring me.

Thanks for sharing.

Read the article. There is one address that holds about 5%. The next largest address holds about 1%. Nobody has 12.5%.

Buy & Hold
Realpra
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June 27, 2012, 11:23:50 AM
 #72


Well I guest 12.5% of total holding is not enough to control but only influence the value. That is reassuring me.

Thanks for sharing.

Read the article. There is one address that holds about 5%. The next largest address holds about 1%. Nobody has 12.5%.
He was referring to a theoretical maximum number that I calculated.

+ address balance means nothing. You could have more.

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proudhon
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June 27, 2012, 01:35:39 PM
 #73

When a person or a group of person are in control of the value, IT IS CENTRALIZE. And no matter how you will call it, the problem still remain.

And, again, the protocol wasn't design to address that concern.  The decentralization of bitcoin doesn't have to do with value.  There is no way to address the concern your raising.  Want to know why?  Because it has to do with the economics of supply and demand and that some people simply have enough wealth to influence the value of any financial instrument.  There is no solution to this "problem".
notme
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June 27, 2012, 02:33:20 PM
 #74

When a person or a group of person are in control of the value, IT IS CENTRALIZE. And no matter how you will call it, the problem still remain.

And, again, the protocol wasn't design to address that concern.  The decentralization of bitcoin doesn't have to do with value.  There is no way to address the concern your raising.  Want to know why?  Because it has to do with the economics of supply and demand and that some people simply have enough wealth to influence the value of any financial instrument.  There is no solution to this "problem".

Sure there is... Off with their heads!

Disclaimer: this is a joke, killing people is bad m'kay?

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Realpra
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June 27, 2012, 02:41:37 PM
 #75

When a person or a group of person are in control of the value, IT IS CENTRALIZE. And no matter how you will call it, the problem still remain.

And, again, the protocol wasn't design to address that concern.  The decentralization of bitcoin doesn't have to do with value.  There is no way to address the concern your raising.  Want to know why?  Because it has to do with the economics of supply and demand and that some people simply have enough wealth to influence the value of any financial instrument.  There is no solution to this "problem".
I think that his concern was that Satoshi created a trillion BTC for himself before he released the client.

BTC would still be cool and all, but with that much wealth in the hands of the creator he might as well have put in a "print BTC"-button.


An alt chain with less initial cash would have been the easy solution to that.

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MoonShadow
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June 27, 2012, 11:54:17 PM
 #76

When a person or a group of person are in control of the value, IT IS CENTRALIZE. And no matter how you will call it, the problem still remain.

And, again, the protocol wasn't design to address that concern.  The decentralization of bitcoin doesn't have to do with value.  There is no way to address the concern your raising.  Want to know why?  Because it has to do with the economics of supply and demand and that some people simply have enough wealth to influence the value of any financial instrument.  There is no solution to this "problem".
I think that his concern was that Satoshi created a trillion BTC for himself before he released the client.

He could have, but he didn't and couldn't do it now.  The running codebase wouldn't recognize it as valid.  There is no special powers that Satoshi (or anyone else) can grant themselves at this point.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 29, 2012, 10:04:29 PM
 #77

When a person or a group of person are in control of the value, IT IS CENTRALIZE. And no matter how you will call it, the problem still remain.

And, again, the protocol wasn't design to address that concern.  The decentralization of bitcoin doesn't have to do with value.  There is no way to address the concern your raising.  Want to know why?  Because it has to do with the economics of supply and demand and that some people simply have enough wealth to influence the value of any financial instrument.  There is no solution to this "problem".
I think that his concern was that Satoshi created a trillion 57,600 BTC for himself before he released the client.

ftfy

  • January 3, 2009: Genesis block established at 18:15:05 GMT
  • January 11, 2009: Bitcoin v0.1 released and announced on the cryptography mailing list


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June 30, 2012, 03:43:45 AM
 #78

I think that his concern was that Satoshi created a trillion 57,600 BTC for himself before he released the client.

ftfy

  • January 3, 2009: Genesis block established at 18:15:05 GMT
  • January 11, 2009: Bitcoin v0.1 released and announced on the cryptography mailing list

The early miner was pretty slow. It took much longer than 10 minutes per block. Only about 100 blocks (5000 btc) were solved by Jan 11.

Buy & Hold
MoonShadow
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June 30, 2012, 03:54:40 AM
 #79

I think that his concern was that Satoshi created a trillion 57,600 BTC for himself before he released the client.

ftfy

  • January 3, 2009: Genesis block established at 18:15:05 GMT
  • January 11, 2009: Bitcoin v0.1 released and announced on the cryptography mailing list

The early miner was pretty slow. It took much longer than 10 minutes per block. Only about 100 blocks (5000 btc) were solved by Jan 11.


Part of that was because Satoshi also coded a minimum difficulty into the algo, which was high enough that one cpu was never going to be able to reach that mark.  Since there were no gpu miners yet, this required that a number of other players jump into the game before the 10 minute target interval could be obtained.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 30, 2012, 08:02:26 AM
 #80

I think that his concern was that Satoshi created a trillion 57,600 BTC for himself before he released the client.

ftfy

  • January 3, 2009: Genesis block established at 18:15:05 GMT
  • January 11, 2009: Bitcoin v0.1 released and announced on the cryptography mailing list

The early miner was pretty slow. It took much longer than 10 minutes per block. Only about 100 blocks (5000 btc) were solved by Jan 11.


Part of that was because Satoshi also coded a minimum difficulty into the algo, which was high enough that one cpu was never going to be able to reach that mark.  Since there were no gpu miners yet, this required that a number of other players jump into the game before the 10 minute target interval could be obtained.

So Satoshi didn't give himself more advantage than he deserves as the inventor. He even gave himself much less than what could be argued as a "fair first mover advantage".

relevant old thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=37333 ("Satoshi Nakamoto - 1,5 million Bitcoins - We need answers")

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