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Author Topic: Development of alert system  (Read 11716 times)
Macho
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August 23, 2010, 04:39:22 PM
 #21

3) notify us using RSS/email/Jabber

That is too centralized/censorable/hackable, the idea with a message signed with specific private key only satochi has is ideal as it can be introduced at any node and spread trough decentralized means.
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lfm
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August 24, 2010, 03:58:17 AM
 #22

I really don't even like the idea of one person having ability to send messages. Even if I/we trust that person now, we might not later, or it might be a different person, or they might get tortured/bribed/blackmailed.

It's open source! If you don't trust Satoshi or think he is going to be coerced, replace his key with your own so only you have the power to shutdown your nodes.


It would require a lot of effort for everyone to change keys or to upgrade to a new version.  This should be recognized by those that are still using old versions even as far back as 0.3.0 and maybe even earlier.

It doesn't require a lot of effort if its a simple option,either in a config file or a command line switch. It might not even be a default, could be opt-in. Some people would welcome it as insurance that they will not be causing problems in an emergency.
theymos
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August 24, 2010, 04:59:29 AM
 #23

There should be a --disable-alerts switch.

1NXYoJ5xU91Jp83XfVMHwwTUyZFK64BoAD
satoshi
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August 24, 2010, 11:51:12 PM
 #24

If you're so paranoid that you're getting hysterical over this, then surely you're paranoid enough that if a warning message displays on the status bar, you'll check the website and forum.

I think if another bug like the overflow bug occurs, it's important that automated websites stop trading until their admins can check out what's going on and decide what to do.  If you decide it's a false alarm and want to take your chances, you can use the "-disablesafemode" switch.
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August 25, 2010, 12:06:36 AM
 #25

This is in SVN rev 142 as version 0.3.11.
mizerydearia
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August 25, 2010, 12:11:50 AM
 #26

If you decide it's a false alarm and want to take your chances, you can use the "-disablesafemode" switch.

I just discovered http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=man_page and don't see any reference to -disablesafemode.  Perhaps it should be added!  Also others liek -4way should be added as well.
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August 25, 2010, 12:24:38 AM
 #27

 If you decide it's a false alarm and want to take your chances, you can use the "-disablesafemode" switch.


What else does -disablesafemode do?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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August 25, 2010, 01:28:32 AM
 #28

If you're so paranoid that you're getting hysterical over this, then surely you're paranoid enough that if a warning message displays on the status bar, you'll check the website and forum.

I think if another bug like the overflow bug occurs, it's important that automated websites stop trading until their admins can check out what's going on and decide what to do.  If you decide it's a false alarm and want to take your chances, you can use the "-disablesafemode" switch.


So what kind of warning do admins get from bitcoind? Is there something we can grep from debug.log? Or will rpc calls raise some specific error? Is there a way to locally force this to happen, for unittesting services?
Macho
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August 25, 2010, 03:03:03 AM
 #29

If you're so paranoid that you're getting hysterical over this, then surely you're paranoid enough that if a warning message displays on the status bar, you'll check the website and forum.

Satochi the creator of the decentralized pseudo-anonymous trading system not reliant on trust and using strong cryptography is calling us paranoid LOL

Not wanting any remote tampering of the software running on my PC is not paranoid but a matter of common sense I believe. Of course it is a good idea but it should be enabled ONLY when specifically requested by the user. It should be opt-in as opposed to opt-out. There is a huge difference between the two (ask Facebook). If it's going to be enabled by default it is going to be perceived by many as an exploitable/malicious feature counting on the fact that most people will not realize/notice it is even there. And I wouldn't say these concerns wouldn't be justified ... It doesn't matter that you have best interest of the community at your heart which I'm sure you have, the system was designed not to rely on any kind of central trust and that principle should not be broken.

Quote
I think if another bug like the overflow bug occurs, it's important that automated websites stop trading until their admins can check out what's going on and decide what to do.  If you decide it's a false alarm and want to take your chances, you can use the "-disablesafemode" switch.

Why not use -enablesafety to enable this feature instead of expecting the user to disable it? If I want my software to respond to remote alerts I should specifically enable it, that way it is ensured that I'm aware of what I'm doing and I'm doing it of my own will. When it is enabled by default a lot of people may not even realize this "feature" is enabled and perceive remote disabling as a breach of trust ... I know I would if I wasn't aware of that possibility and the software would suddenly stopped working and I would discover it was disabled by remote by someone I gave no conscious permission to do so.

I hope you'll consider this suggestion ... thanks
mizerydearia
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August 25, 2010, 09:14:31 AM
 #30


I agree, however, if you compile from source, a single change from

rpc.cpp
Code:
!mapArgs.count("-disablesafemode")

to
Code:
mapArgs.count("-safemode")

will then

Code:
// Observe lockdown
throw runtime_error(strWarning);

You can examine the code at http://bitcoin.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/bitcoin/trunk/rpc.cpp?revision=142&view=markup to see what is happening.

It seems a bit strange to only show an error when -enablesafety is used.  Perhaps it is unsafe or insecure for this to happen?

http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=api

From my understanding of the code it appears that when using one of these http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=api methods other than getinfo, help, stop, getgenerate, setgenerate and most importantly when there is a warning, that:

if -disablesafemode was passed to the running process, then the warning will not be displayed
if -disablesafemode was not passed to the running process, then the warning will be displayed

http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/std/stdexcept/runtime_error/

Quote
necrodearia> http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/std/stdexcept/runtime_error/ - Does this cause the running process to stop or does it just produce output to the terminal/shell?
<Adrinael> necrodearia, "this"?
<necrodearia> runtime_error
<Adrinael> necrodearia, if you create a runtime_error object, nothing happens. If you throw a runtime_error object, it all depends on if someone catches it, and where.
<Adrinael> { try {  throw runtime_error("Error, halp!");  }  catch (runtime_error& e) { cout << "caught a runtime error: " << e.what(); }   cout << " but still continuing..."; }
<clang> terminated by runtime_error: Error, halp!
<Adrinael> Hmm awesome
<Adrinael> geordi { try {  throw runtime_error("Error, halp!");  }  catch (runtime_error& e) { cout << "caught a runtime error: " << e.what(); }   cout << " but still continuing..."; }
<geordi> caught a runtime error: Error, halp! but still continuing...
<Sausage> How in the hell did it get that wrong?
<Adrinael> Asked Eelis on #geordi, now move along
Macho
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August 25, 2010, 12:25:54 PM
 #31

I agree, however, if you compile from source, a single change from

That's not the point, if I'm diligent enough to change a source code I'm also diligent enough to apply a -disablesafety switch which is much easier, the issue here is default behavior of the official client. Many people are going to just notice there is a new version, download and install it never realizing this new remote control was inserted there.

Saying that they can examine the source code or that it was openly discussed on the forum is like Facebook saying "but we have an option to delete your account, it's in terms of service, section 76, line 346, under link named so-appalling-that-nobody-would-ever-click-it, then on page 2, just solve the capcha, confirm the dialog, that will disable your account and if you do not log in in a week it will be deleted". In short ... nobody actually does it ... that's how badware behaves and I do not want for Bitcoin to be badware.

If there is a remote safety disable function every user who has it enabled should consciously enable it knowing what it does. This can be easily accomplished by presenting a dialog urging user to enable it while explaining what it does in a GUI client and presenting a warning accomplishing the same task when daemon is run. Simple, efficient and everybody is happy. That's how software that respects its users and is working for them should behave. I'm sure most people would enable it when understanding what it does ... but sneaking this feature in without making sure the user specifically wants it there is making decisions for the user, I do not like decisions being made for me Wink

I'm aware of this because I read the forums but what in the future? (And what about people who do not read forums) Will there be another "feature" inserted and I'm not going to be even notified, explained what it does and asked if I want it enabled? I do not like that if you ask me ... I want to know what software on my CPU does, if it doesn't make reasonable effort to inform me of that and assure that I'm aware of it's behavior I would consider it badware.

That's at least my perspective ... and the fix is extremely easy Wink
satoshi
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August 25, 2010, 03:17:37 PM
 #32

It can't do arbitrary actions remotely.  Maybe some of you are responding to other posters who suggested the alert system should do more?

If there is an alert, the following json-rpc methods return an error:
sendtoaddress
getbalance
getreceivedbyaddress
getreceivedbylabel
listreceivedbyaddress
listreceivedbylabel

The remaining 14 methods function as normal.

I believe the safer option should be enabled by default.  If you want your server to keep trading and ignore an alert saying the money its receiving might be like the money from the overflow bug, then you can use the switch and not blame anyone else if you lose your money.

Worst case if you leave alerts enabled, your site stops trading until you upgrade or add the -disablesafemode switch.

Getting surprised by some temporary down time when your node would otherwise be at risk is better than getting surprised by a thief draining all your inventory.

Someday when we haven't found any new bugs for a long time and it has been thoroughly security reviewed without finding anything, this can be scaled back.  I'm not arguing that this is the permanent way of things forever.  It's still beta software.
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August 25, 2010, 04:40:20 PM
 #33

I changed the switch name to -disablesafemode.
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August 25, 2010, 04:41:55 PM
 #34

What is the error the RPC calls return? And more importantly, how can I simulate this? Can you add a flag to start the server in degraded mode?
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August 25, 2010, 04:45:22 PM
 #35

@mizerydearia, I think the quote button is easier to find then the reply one.

So, theoretical this is a first control system where <some goverment> can arrest satoshi and demand
that he hands over his key (or get it from his computer) and shut down the complete network?

Or is that not possible? How far would <some goverment> get?


A few rhetorical questions for satoshi:

Can you resist waterboarding?
Can you endure electric shock?
All forms of torture?
Lastly, are you Jack Bauer by any chance?   Seriously.

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satoshi
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August 25, 2010, 04:56:15 PM
 #36

@mizerydearia, I think the quote button is easier to find then the reply one.

So, theoretical this is a first control system where <some goverment> can arrest satoshi and demand
that he hands over his key (or get it from his computer) and shut down the complete network?

Or is that not possible? How far would <some goverment> get?

A few rhetorical questions for satoshi:

Can you resist waterboarding?
Can you endure electric shock?
All forms of torture?
Lastly, are you Jack Bauer by any chance?   Seriously.
WRT the alert system, who cares?  The most the key can do is temporarily disable six json-rpc commands until the site owners either add the -disablesafemode switch or upgrade.  All nodes keep running and generating, the network stays up.  If I'm not available, any script kiddie can figure out how to add two characters and make a new version that disables the alert system.  It would be a temporary inconvenience only.

So, theoretical this is a first control system where <some goverment> can arrest satoshi and demand
that he hands over his key (or get it from his computer) and shut down the complete network?
This is what makes me think the people objecting don't know what they're talking about.  It can't "shut down the complete network".

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August 25, 2010, 05:59:30 PM
 #37

So what kind of warning do admins get from bitcoind? Is there something we can grep from debug.log? Or will rpc calls raise some specific error? Is there a way to locally force this to happen, for unittesting services?
getinfo has a new field that shows any alert messages or other errors that would be displayed on the status bar.

The rpc methods return a json-rpc error with the error description "Safe mode: " followed by additional text specified by the alert.

I added the switch "-testsafemode" for you.  SVN rev 145.

This stuff is very new and may still be subject to change.

I just discovered http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=man_page and don't see any reference to -disablesafemode.  Perhaps it should be added!  Also others liek -4way should be added as well.
Many switches are intentionally undocumented, like if their functionality is still under construction or I haven't settled on their name yet, or just test code not intended for release.

-4way should eventually be replaced by an auto-detect.
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August 25, 2010, 06:23:45 PM
 #38


So, theoretical this is a first control system where <some goverment> can arrest satoshi and demand
that he hands over his key (or get it from his computer) and shut down the complete network?
This is what makes me think the people objecting don't know what they're talking about.  It can't "shut down the complete network".


I've never objected this change/idea, just asking if this was possible and to what extent.
What's wrong with getting informed? Wink
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August 25, 2010, 07:02:33 PM
 #39

So what kind of warning do admins get from bitcoind? Is there something we can grep from debug.log? Or will rpc calls raise some specific error? Is there a way to locally force this to happen, for unittesting services?
getinfo has a new field that shows any alert messages or other errors that would be displayed on the status bar.

The rpc methods return a json-rpc error with the error description "Safe mode: " followed by additional text specified by the alert.

I added the switch "-testsafemode" for you.  SVN rev 145.

This stuff is very new and may still be subject to change.

Perfect, works great for me. Thank you.
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August 25, 2010, 10:48:01 PM
 #40

Okay, I'm not worried anymore.

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