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Author Topic: The police  (Read 6519 times)
MoonShadow
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May 20, 2011, 07:32:32 PM
 #21

I work in network security, and some of us have been discussing this recently.

Because Bitcoins are traded anonymously, they will be extremely easy to steal once the malware community begins to take notice unless something is done to secure how we access Bitcoins.


An encrypted wallet.dat file as default is in the todo list for the bitcoin client.  Feel free to jump into the fray and help if you have the skills.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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Gareth Nelson
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May 21, 2011, 12:46:35 AM
 #22

And to migrate back to the main topic at hand, good luck getting the police to help. First off, you have to be able to convince them that Bitcoins have real value. Anything under $20 of damage is, by law, not dealt with by the police/courts. Second, you'll need to find the person who took it. Since Bitcoins are transferred anonymously, that means you'd have to get a professional cryptographer to decrypt my ZeuS and find where I'm accessing you from. And then, after all of that, you have to hope that I still have your Bitcoins. Chances are, by the time you actually figure out what's happened, I've already sold them, or transferred them to somebody else.

Showing the current exchange rates should be enough to demonstrate market value but you're absolutely right that the bigger issue is finding who stole them - that's an issue with "cybercrime" (I dislike that word, it sounds a tad pretentious) in general. Part of the price we pay for privacy is having to defend ourselves against criminals, personally I think it's worth the price.
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May 21, 2011, 01:02:01 AM
 #23


Sting was awesome ... bit greenie now for my liking though ... Andy Summers was pretty cool too.



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May 21, 2011, 04:13:57 AM
 #24

I once had a roomate that lived with me that decided to move out while I was at work and steal about 8 grand worth of stuff from me. Funny thing was I know his full name and know where he lives till this day but cops did nothing but file a report and said the only thing I could do was sue him. Love how my tax dollars never do anything for me ever.  Grin
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May 21, 2011, 04:14:56 AM
 #25

I once had a roomate that lived with me that decided to move out while I was at work and steal about 8 grand worth of stuff from me. Funny thing was I know his full name and know where he lives till this day but cops did nothing but file a report and said the only thing I could do was sue him. Love how my tax dollars never do anything for me ever.  Grin

And you didn't go get your stuff? Were you afraid of the police or something?

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May 21, 2011, 04:54:35 AM
 #26

If your Bitcoins are stolen, why should the police help you?

What do you mean by "should"?

I think that people should help other people because it's the right thing to do, whether from a moral position or because it's in everyone's long-term best interest. But in their role as The Police, there's not really any reason why they should do anything other than crack your skull when you aren't serving the state's interests (which are always immoral and short term). Considering the threat bitcoin poses to state power, I wouldn't expect much in the way of help from the police.

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Gareth Nelson
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May 21, 2011, 04:59:33 AM
 #27

If your Bitcoins are stolen, why should the police help you?

What do you mean by "should"?

I think that people should help other people because it's the right thing to do, whether from a moral position or because it's in everyone's long-term best interest. But in their role as The Police, there's not really any reason why they should do anything other than crack your skull when you aren't serving the state's interests (which are always immoral and short term). Considering the threat bitcoin poses to state power, I wouldn't expect much in the way of help from the police.

Until bitcoins are declared illegal the police still have a duty to enforce the laws against fraud and trespass which would apply to stolen bitcoins. Believe me, individual police departments/officers will never go through the thought process of "this goes against state interests", they're more likely to think "wtf is this bitcoin thing? someone stole some pretend money? what?"
FreeMoney
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May 21, 2011, 05:22:46 AM
 #28

If your Bitcoins are stolen, why should the police help you?

What do you mean by "should"?

I think that people should help other people because it's the right thing to do, whether from a moral position or because it's in everyone's long-term best interest. But in their role as The Police, there's not really any reason why they should do anything other than crack your skull when you aren't serving the state's interests (which are always immoral and short term). Considering the threat bitcoin poses to state power, I wouldn't expect much in the way of help from the police.

Until bitcoins are declared illegal the police still have a duty to enforce the laws against fraud and trespass which would apply to stolen bitcoins. Believe me, individual police departments/officers will never go through the thought process of "this goes against state interests", they're more likely to think "wtf is this bitcoin thing? someone stole some pretend money? what?"

There is no duty to protect. Not in reality and not even in legal fantasy land.

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Gareth Nelson
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May 21, 2011, 05:30:20 AM
 #29

The police do have a duty to enforce the law - if you report a crime they have to make at least some sort of effort. It's true they have no duty to protect you from becoming a victim of crime in the first place, but after the fact they do have a duty to respond even if they can be incompetent.
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May 21, 2011, 05:32:45 AM
 #30

you guys are all nuts (most of you)

if you can show that you we're fraudulently deprived of something of value of $5,000 (862 btc at mtgox current) dollars or more across state lines this is a federal felony.  As long as you can show that the object stolen has the above mentioned market value it is a felony.  The cops will not care about the details.  All they need to know is that the item stolen was of enough significant value that it is worth their time.

10 btc == a report with no results (don't bother calling the cops)
1000 btc == someone could go to jail for a good amount of time
Gareth Nelson
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May 21, 2011, 05:35:27 AM
 #31

you guys are all nuts (most of you)

if you can show that you we're fraudulently deprived of something of value of $5,000 (862 btc at mtgox current) dollars or more across state lines this is a federal felony.  As long as you can show that the object stolen has the above mentioned market value it is a felony.  The cops will not care about the details.  All they need to know is that the item stolen was of enough significant value that it is worth their time.

10 btc == a report with no results (don't bother calling the cops)
1000 btc == someone could go to jail for a good amount of time

Hope i'm not in the "most of you" category Wink

Bit of advice for everyone: government as an entity is made up of lots of people, many of whom aren't all that interested in some sort of grand conspiracy to protect state interests - most police officers from what i've seen care most about how soon they can get off duty while 1 or 2 rare ones actually have some ideological thinking about upholding the law etc. Same as any profession really.

Do you consider the person behind the till at mcdonalds to actually care about defending the interests of mcdonalds above all else?
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May 21, 2011, 07:28:46 AM
 #32

Good thing to know. If I should ever need a vital organ transplant I'll look you up and just take your organ. Since private property is an illusion you wont mind, right? Retard.
Thank god my brain is safe, doesn't seem like a vital organ in your case.

kjj
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May 21, 2011, 09:11:05 AM
 #33

Because Bitcoins are traded anonymously, they will be extremely easy to steal once the malware community begins to take notice unless something is done to secure how we access Bitcoins. At the moment, we simply turn on the program and go. We can even rip them straight from the computer. There's a tutorial on this very website on how to rip your Bitcoins and back them up to DropBox. Obviously, there needs to be an additional layer of security. Files need to be secured with passwords, the program needs to require a password that CANNOT BE RETRIEVED (if it is retrievable, it is possible for an exploiter to remotely retrieve it) IF LOST, and everything needs to be encrypted.

You already have this.  In fact, if you think about it, you already have as much security with bitcoin as you choose to have.  The public keys that correspond to the bitcoin addresses are the passwords that can't be retrieved.

p2pcoin: a USB/CD/PXE p2pool miner - 1N8ZXx2cuMzqBYSK72X4DAy1UdDbZQNPLf - todo
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FreeMoney
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May 21, 2011, 09:42:44 AM
 #34

The police do have a duty to enforce the law - if you report a crime they have to make at least some sort of effort. It's true they have no duty to protect you from becoming a victim of crime in the first place, but after the fact they do have a duty to respond even if they can be incompetent.

Well which is it? Do they have to enforce the law or just make an effort? Is standing up enough effort? Do they actually need to find a suspect? Think about it for 30 seconds? If they fail to meet this requirement you imagine then what happens? Do the police investigate the failure? Or try to investigate it at least?

P.S. Do I get my money back if they fail to deliver?

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Gareth Nelson
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May 21, 2011, 09:54:14 AM
 #35

The police do have a duty to enforce the law - if you report a crime they have to make at least some sort of effort. It's true they have no duty to protect you from becoming a victim of crime in the first place, but after the fact they do have a duty to respond even if they can be incompetent.

Well which is it? Do they have to enforce the law or just make an effort? Is standing up enough effort? Do they actually need to find a suspect? Think about it for 30 seconds? If they fail to meet this requirement you imagine then what happens? Do the police investigate the failure? Or try to investigate it at least?

P.S. Do I get my money back if they fail to deliver?

They have to at the very least make an effort - if they literally do absolutely nothing then the very same government that gives them their power is likely to be the one that takes it away from them unless there is EXTREME corruption - and that level of corruption is far more rare than paranoid libertarians imagine.
hazek
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May 21, 2011, 10:43:40 AM
 #36

Good thing to know. If I should ever need a vital organ transplant I'll look you up and just take your organ. Since private property is an illusion you wont mind, right? Retard.
Thank god my brain is safe, doesn't seem like a vital organ in your case.

Ahh yes. When logic fails you need to seal the deal with an ad hominem attack. Bravo sir. You truly are a special one.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

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May 21, 2011, 11:03:58 AM
 #37


But you gotta admit, it was a pretty damn classic one ...  Smiley

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May 21, 2011, 11:24:04 AM
 #38

Good thing to know. If I should ever need a vital organ transplant I'll look you up and just take your organ. Since private property is an illusion you wont mind, right? Retard.
Thank god my brain is safe, doesn't seem like a vital organ in your case.

Ahh yes. When logic fails you need to seal the deal with an ad hominem attack. Bravo sir. You truly are a special one.

Yeah, accept my apologies, that totally came out of nowhere.

hazek
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May 21, 2011, 11:28:15 AM
 #39

Apology accepted.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
ribuck
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May 21, 2011, 11:31:45 AM
 #40

Yeah, accept my apologies, that totally came out of nowhere.
He called you "retard"; you're entitled to make a witty riposte.
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