Bitcoin Forum
March 29, 2024, 05:35:20 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 26.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: would you buy a marked quantum scifi bitcoin for above par?  (Read 6168 times)
cbeast
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736
Merit: 1006

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


View Profile
January 03, 2015, 11:16:34 AM
 #21

Satoshi invented a new element called bitcoinium, and all alt-coins are made of it too;
Not sure what to make of that analogy. It sounds homeopathic.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
1711690520
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1711690520

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1711690520
Reply with quote  #2

1711690520
Report to moderator
1711690520
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1711690520

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1711690520
Reply with quote  #2

1711690520
Report to moderator
"Bitcoin: the cutting edge of begging technology." -- Giraffe.BTC
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
1711690520
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1711690520

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1711690520
Reply with quote  #2

1711690520
Report to moderator
1711690520
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1711690520

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1711690520
Reply with quote  #2

1711690520
Report to moderator
Come-from-Beyond
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2142
Merit: 1009

Newbie


View Profile
January 03, 2015, 11:23:48 AM
 #22

However, this technique will make mining more efficient but cannot make efficiency 100% so there will always be some heat dissipation although much less than current values.

Shift of dissipation to radio spectrum (caused by current going through wires) won't help you much, unless you take part in radioelectronic warfare and want to disrupt enemy's communications.
findftp
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1022
Merit: 1005

Delusional crypto obsessionist


View Profile
January 03, 2015, 11:28:23 AM
Last edit: January 03, 2015, 01:27:33 PM by findftp
 #23

However, this technique will make mining more efficient but cannot make efficiency 100% so there will always be some heat dissipation although much less than current values.

Shift of dissipation to radio spectrum (caused by current going through wires) won't help you much, unless you take part in radioelectronic warfare and want to disrupt enemy's communications.
A current through a wire is never without resistance unless chilled to super conductivity temperatures, close to zero Kelvin.
Whenever there is resistance there is heat.

Besides, a clever mofo could possibly make a microwave oven from the EM radiation
Come-from-Beyond
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2142
Merit: 1009

Newbie


View Profile
January 03, 2015, 12:26:36 PM
 #24

A current touch a wire is never without resistance unless chilled to super conductivity temperatures, close to zero Kelvin.
Whenever there is resistance there is heat.

Besides, a clever mofo could possibly make a microwave oven from the EM radiation

I'm talking about wires behaving as antennas.
findftp
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1022
Merit: 1005

Delusional crypto obsessionist


View Profile
January 03, 2015, 12:33:47 PM
 #25

A current touch a wire is never without resistance unless chilled to super conductivity temperatures, close to zero Kelvin.
Whenever there is resistance there is heat.

Besides, a clever mofo could possibly make a microwave oven from the EM radiation

I'm talking about wires behaving as antennas.

Antennas also become warm.
A microwave oven is one high powered antenna, although there is only gibberish being sent to the product.

Come-from-Beyond
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2142
Merit: 1009

Newbie


View Profile
January 03, 2015, 12:48:23 PM
 #26

Antennas also become warm.
A microwave oven is one high powered antenna, although there is only gibberish being sent to the product.

This led me to a thought... When Bitcoin mining rigs become very efficient (heat-wise) they will still radiate energy that can be "caught" and used for other things. An obvious countermeasure is to place other mining rigs powered solely by EM radiation around the main rig. This will lead to concentration of mining equipment in the same location, which is not very decentralization-friendly...
findftp
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1022
Merit: 1005

Delusional crypto obsessionist


View Profile
January 03, 2015, 12:49:41 PM
 #27

Antennas also become warm.
A microwave oven is one high powered antenna, although there is only gibberish being sent to the product.

This led me to a thought... When Bitcoin mining rigs become very efficient (heat-wise) they will still radiate energy that can be "caught" and used for other things. An obvious countermeasure is to place other mining rigs powered solely by EM radiation around the main rig. This will lead to concentration of mining equipment in the same location, which is not very decentralization-friendly...

You just invented a perpetimum mobile.
Grin lol
Come-from-Beyond
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2142
Merit: 1009

Newbie


View Profile
January 03, 2015, 12:52:27 PM
 #28

You just invented a perpetimum mobile.
Grin lol

No. Smiley
Even if 100.0% of radiated energy was caught then it still wouldn't violate laws of physics.

PS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_power
findftp
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1022
Merit: 1005

Delusional crypto obsessionist


View Profile
January 03, 2015, 12:57:35 PM
 #29

You just invented a perpetimum mobile.
Grin lol

No. Smiley
Even if 100.0% of radiated energy was caught then it still wouldn't violate laws of physics.

It does, when you want to transform the energy into something else.
You cannot mine radiation so you have to convert it first to something useful.
In this process you always have losses, whether mechanical wear, EM radiation, IR radiation or whatever.
Come-from-Beyond
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2142
Merit: 1009

Newbie


View Profile
January 03, 2015, 01:00:58 PM
 #30

It does, when you want to transform the energy into something else.
You cannot mine radiation so you have to convert it first to something useful.
In this process you always have losses, whether mechanical wear, EM radiation, IR radiation or whatever.

Ah, so http://www.wirelesspowersupply.net is scam!  Cheesy
findftp
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1022
Merit: 1005

Delusional crypto obsessionist


View Profile
January 03, 2015, 01:07:40 PM
 #31

It does, when you want to transform the energy into something else.
You cannot mine radiation so you have to convert it first to something useful.
In this process you always have losses, whether mechanical wear, EM radiation, IR radiation or whatever.

Ah, so http://www.wirelesspowersupply.net is scam!  Cheesy

No, I don't say wireless radiation (edit. lol. wireless and radiation is pretty the same) is impossible.
I only say that you always have losses if you transform one energy state for another.
And when this occures, there is almost always some heat involved.


Come-from-Beyond
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2142
Merit: 1009

Newbie


View Profile
January 03, 2015, 01:23:08 PM
 #32

No, I don't say wireless radiation (edit. lol. wireless and radiation is pretty the same) is impossible.
I only say that you always have losses if you transform one energy state for another.
And when this occures, there is almost always some heat involved.

I see, it's off-topic so let's don't derail this thread.
Come-from-Beyond
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2142
Merit: 1009

Newbie


View Profile
January 04, 2015, 07:39:24 AM
 #33

I'm not defending alt-coins, they are scams...

Who was scammed by Litecoin and how?
findftp
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1022
Merit: 1005

Delusional crypto obsessionist


View Profile
January 04, 2015, 10:12:41 AM
 #34

I'm not defending alt-coins, they are scams...

Who was scammed by Litecoin and how?
Watch the price?
cbeast
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736
Merit: 1006

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


View Profile
January 04, 2015, 10:26:33 AM
 #35

I'm not defending alt-coins, they are scams...

Who was scammed by Litecoin and how?
Watch the price?

Don't forget GPU proof for the miners that bought expensive cpu systems.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
Come-from-Beyond
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2142
Merit: 1009

Newbie


View Profile
January 04, 2015, 10:45:07 AM
 #36

Watch the price?

The same is applicable to Bitcoin.
adam3us (OP)
Sr. Member
****
expert
Offline Offline

Activity: 404
Merit: 359


in bitcoin we trust


View Profile WWW
January 04, 2015, 10:53:53 AM
 #37

Satoshi invented a new element called bitcoinium, and all alt-coins are made of it too; if you pay above par for bitcoinium you're getting ripped off.

Euro is a piece of paper with EUR printed on it.
Dollar is a piece of paper with USD printed on it.
A4 is a piece of paper with nothing printed on it.

Well that those things are producible for a tiny fraction of par is the very problem bitcoin solves, in electronic form that gold solves in physical form.

Quote from: Adam Chirilluc
If you pay for either of them more than the price of paper you are getting ripped off.

Yes you are.  In small parts via inflation.

Quote from: Adam Chirilluc
Adam, branding matters. The exact same suit produced in the exact Chinese factory sells for 100$ or 1000$, depending on whether Armani is stamped on it's side.

I dont think branding of digital artefacts that can be cheaply copied matters.  Bitcoin is FOSS software, if someone comes up with something useful, it can and will be copied.  That was what the pacman game analogy was about.

Quote from: adam3us link=
However they were still fractions of actual bitcoins because the proof is universal due to the cryptographic AI, there was nothing Bob could do that could change that fact, no supply parameter changes, hash function used, software feature, not even a retro pacman game (loaded into the FHE processor in the coins), branding etc would change that because the universal cryptographic AI was measuring Joules expended, and unlike humans was not easily swayed by marketing and logos: a proof of joules mined is a proof joules mined, whatever letter or logo you stamp on the coin! 

[...]
The pacman game doesnt change things either because if it was useful to play pacman on bitcoin, someone would fork the code and add it; an arms race of cutting and pasting each others code doesnt create value.  Chances are the reason bitcoin doesnt have a pacman game is it isnt that useful or you dont need bitcoin to play pacman.  The 2015 Bitcoin doesnt yet know about users mining coins stamped with creative logos is because it lacks quantum non-local communication, we'll fix that one day, but in the mean time humans can convert one supply function to another with simple math and measure average electrical efficiency and when measured this way people are paying way over par, no rational entity would put money into marked coins

Quote from: Adam Chirilluc
Homo economicus doesn't exist, bits are not bits, and 1J used to heat my tea is not the same as 1J used to mine bitcoin, otherwise the price of bitcoin would closely follow the price of electricity.

I argue it does exist, and bitcoinium is bitcoinium.  You're just missing a property of bitcoinium which is the electricity that went into it must have no other use, and that the use must be cryptographically verifiable in a decentralised way, and behave like a statistical poisson process (people around the world trying to do it and on average one mining a block of coins every 10mins).

Heating your cup of tea with a resistive heating element satisfies none of those properties.  (Yes you could heat your tea on top of a stack of ASICs, and maybe someday people will do that; but the extent to which you extract use from the waste heat causes the average cost of production to fall and hence difficulty to rise to compensate).

Quote from: Adam Chirilluc
I'm not defending alt-coins, they are scams, but it doesn't follow that all coins should be priced in joules, for the same reason that the price of a computer or of a suit is not the bill-of-materials cost.

Its a bit more than a Joule though.  Its a time-adjusted Joule that you can cryptographically prove and that has no side-uses.  That really is bitcoinium and that has amazing implications.

Adam

hashcash, committed transactions, homomorphic values, blind kdf; researching decentralization, scalability and fungibility/anonymity
Come-from-Beyond
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2142
Merit: 1009

Newbie


View Profile
January 04, 2015, 11:03:02 AM
 #38

That really is bitcoinium and that has amazing implications...

...which would be more amazing if bitcoinium was mined via useful PoW (like protein folding). And if it is then mining of bitcoinium may become more profitable than bitcoinium itself, which in turn will drive value of bitcoinium to zero (we don't value by-products much).
cbeast
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736
Merit: 1006

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


View Profile
January 04, 2015, 11:15:24 AM
 #39

Adam's thought experiment depends on an omniscient AI. It's a common fallacy.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
adam3us (OP)
Sr. Member
****
expert
Offline Offline

Activity: 404
Merit: 359


in bitcoin we trust


View Profile WWW
January 04, 2015, 11:18:02 AM
Last edit: January 04, 2015, 12:20:06 PM by adam3us
 #40

That really is bitcoinium and that has amazing implications...

...which would be more amazing if bitcoinium was mined via useful PoW (like protein folding). And if it is then mining of bitcoinium may become more profitable than bitcoinium itself, which in turn will drive value of bitcoinium to zero (we don't value by-products much).

If its useful like sellable as a service, then that acts just like Adam Chirilluc cup of tea:

Quote from: adam3us
Heating your cup of tea with a resistive heating element satisfies none of those properties.  (Yes you could heat your tea on top of a stack of ASICs, and maybe someday people will do that; but the extent to which you extract use from the waste heat causes the average cost of production to fall and hence difficulty to rise to compensate).

an oversupply of the service will cause its price to fall also, and we'll still have the exact same Joules spent on bitcoin mining (minus the revenue from providing the service).  Bitcoin price is set by people investing in it and utility demand.  Production cost follows that, not the reverse, otherwise we wouldnt have difficulty falls as we saw last month.

There's an economic principle that if a commodity is producible at below par, people will expend more effort (ie the difficulty will go up).  Paul Sztorc explains the economic theory better in this blog article: http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-and-mining/

Adam

hashcash, committed transactions, homomorphic values, blind kdf; researching decentralization, scalability and fungibility/anonymity
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!