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Author Topic: Decrits Proposal: Solution for an unbound, energy-related, stable value currency  (Read 7429 times)
tytus
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September 15, 2012, 04:55:31 PM
 #61

burned decrits did belong to somebody. Somebody would have to pay for burning it.
The point was to move value to another currency if one so desired--there is no actual destruction of value.
Who would do this? This sound like exchanging it against USD.
The central bank must buy back money to get it out of circulation. No private person would do it just because of patriotism [ok, some, but this is not Your model].

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Etlase2
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September 15, 2012, 05:02:20 PM
 #62

To transfer it to a future, better cryptocurrency, if such a thing could possibly exist. Shocked Grin The only reason I brought that up was because of the issue you had with the energy waste. A future cryptocurrency could use essentially zero energy by not allowing currency creation and only bringing in currency over from destroyed Decrits currency. That is if the economy ever got to a reasonable steady state. I think it still would bring back the issue of manipulation, but perhaps at that point we'll have a Star Trekkian utopia. I don't really want to go off on a tangent about it. Yes energy gets used, the same is true for every currency and everything in production. It can't be avoided without introducing some kind of central authority that distributes the currency--and of course even then you go back to security, etc. ad nauseum. The argument compared to bitcoin and traditional fiat is moot. Decrits will be far more energy efficient.

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September 15, 2012, 06:30:53 PM
 #63

http://www.indiegogo.com/freicoin
Ok, it is time to raise money for development :-)


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September 26, 2012, 08:59:15 PM
 #64

Share holders will have to remain online at all times.
What is the least uptime allowed? 99%? 95%? Noone can remain online 100% of time.
Etlase2
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September 26, 2012, 09:24:23 PM
 #65

Share holders will have to remain online at all times.
What is the least uptime allowed? 99%? 95%? Noone can remain online 100% of time.

Just in a general sense. Depending on how the final consensus mechanism ends up working, they may actually only need to be online for very short periods of time when they have to create a transaction block or sign someone else's transaction block. But the best that will do is be something like "you must be monitoring the network at 6am GMT" etc., so it will usually just be more convenient to remain online, though not strictly necessary.

Shareholders will also be allowed to sign off of the network for extended periods, but this can't be an instant process as the rest of the network needs to come to a consensus on it. The total network reputation that is online cannot be allowed to go too low though, so there have to be limits on this. Some of this is detailed in the consciousness stream linked in the OP. There will be a system of penalty points that, when accrued, prevent you from gaining your share of the tx fee profits for a certain amount of time (like 1 point = 1 day that you must be signed into the network and perform your duties for the point to disappear). There will also be a kind of "three strike rule" where if you miss your required duties too many times or stay signed out of the network for too long within a 1 year period, you will be kicked out of the shareholders, lose your reputation, and be refunded only 75% of your share value (the rest will be destroyed).

These mechanics also tie in to what happens if there is a network split.

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September 29, 2012, 12:58:47 PM
 #66

I'm replying here from the deflation thread since we were not talking about deflation at all.

Actually there already were some ideas lingering before bitcoin. Most notably: http://www.weidai.com/bmoney.txt  (1998)

It's one thing to write a proposal and it's another thing to do it. Trust me, I know. Wink

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I don't dismiss it, I simply have my own ideas on how a complete rework should be.

Well I don't know what your goals are, and your money supply thread didn't really elucidate that either.

It wasn't a post about my goals. I don't know why people would be interested in a post about my goals, being pseudonymously here. I think particular, concrete issues are more interesting for most people to contribute their thoughts and ideas.

In an earlier post you said nobody thought about a system like bitcoin before bitcoin, and I showed you how actually a number of people had very clear ideas about it. They just didn't put all the elements in place in a sensible system like Satoshi did. So yeah, implementation is a big, BIG part of the deal. Which is why, while I'm willing to listen to everybody, it will take some convincing to get me working in a system several times more complex than bitcoin. Bitcoin itself is far from "solved" (we still struggle to improve blockchain storage, checkpoint sync, etc and we still find new pros and cons and possible attacks to this day).

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I sincerely believe time-based reputation is in general counter-productive.

Time-based reputation is only a monetary incentive (and disincentive for doing bad things) as well as applying to a few other minor things. The majority of the security rests on buying shares. Want to approve a double or a bad spend? Well ok it will cost you $3,000 and however many months or years of reputation incentive that you've earned. And the odds if being able to pull this off and actually work are as difficult if not much more difficult than a finney attack as nothing can be done in secret.

By counter-productive I meant in this particular instance that it would hinder adoption. That's the general impression I get. I've thought of similar schemes but these will need to be thoroughly tested.

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I'm sceptical that a blockchain currency can be secured properly without proof of work, I'd like to see that working.

I'm not. I've spent hundreds of hours coming up with these ideas, coming up with potential attacks, rearranging the ideas to avoid those attacks, and so on. There are, in my mind, only a few questions that need to be answered via testing, and these are of a low-impact variety (like how will latency affect certain processes).

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Note that if the system can be feasibly gamed it will be.

See above. A lot of my time has been devoted to figuring out how it can't be gamed; up to and including making ASICs essentially useless.

I have no way to know whether you are capable or not of devising these attacks. If security is not provided by proof of work in some sense (doesn't need to be SHA cracking) you'd have to tell me what and how does the system stop someone from faking a big number of early users of varying characteristics. If you come up with a good answer to this I'd be a lot more interested. Note that bootstrapping the system is a very delicate part of the process, if you tell me that I need to pay someone in US$ to enter the network then I can only assume that it will fail miserably. Not going to happen. The alternative is basically proof of work of some sort.

As always, feel free to ask questions in the thread and I will give you a very detailed response.

I can only devote so much time to reading and debating other people's ideas instead of working in my own stuff.

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September 29, 2012, 05:23:29 PM
 #67

It wasn't a post about my goals. I don't know why people would be interested in a post about my goals, being pseudonymously here. I think particular, concrete issues are more interesting for most people to contribute their thoughts and ideas.

Well, I don't really see why you would get a more thought-provoking discussion by using minor modifications to bitcoin as a discussion point.

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In an earlier post you said nobody thought about a system like bitcoin before bitcoin, and I showed you how actually a number of people had very clear ideas about it. They just didn't put all the elements in place in a sensible system like Satoshi did.

B-money did not solve the consensus problem even though he had written about using a system like bitcoin's money creation system to create money, he did not link the two together. It's a big black hole of a problem in his design where Satoshi filled the void.

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So yeah, implementation is a big, BIG part of the deal. Which is why, while I'm willing to listen to everybody, it will take some convincing to get me working in a system several times more complex than bitcoin. Bitcoin itself is far from "solved" (we still struggle to improve blockchain storage, checkpoint sync, etc and we still find new pros and cons and possible attacks to this day).

Well perhaps you'll be happy to know that Decrits, at least, solves block chain storage and checkpoint sync. Wink

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By counter-productive I meant in this particular instance that it would hinder adoption. That's the general impression I get. I've thought of similar schemes but these will need to be thoroughly tested.

The share system is for securing the network. The money creation system is a separate entity. Both systems can easily provide for an early adoption benefit, though it would be nowhere near on the same order as bitcoin's. But there's no point in pretending that bitcoin's characteristics will ever work again--we've already got that currency.

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I have no way to know whether you are capable or not of devising these attacks. If security is not provided by proof of work in some sense (doesn't need to be SHA cracking) you'd have to tell me what and how does the system stop someone from faking a big number of early users of varying characteristics. If you come up with a good answer to this I'd be a lot more interested.

Proof of work is provided by the currency you need to create via minting in order to buy a share. Do something detrimental to the network and you will either instantly or eventually lose your share depending on the transgression. Anyone who doesn't agree on these protocol transgressions will also lose their share in the eyes of the clients, the honest cloudnet, and the honest shareholders. There is no 51% attack against this system, there is really even no 99% attack. The worst anyone can do without losing their stake is delay some transactions, and I'm working on making sure this is penalized as well. It's a bit delicate though and these are some of the deepest intricacies that I am trying to make rock-solid even though their impact is small unless a very big portion of the shareholders are intent on causing disruption. But the disruption they are able to cause is far less damaging than a 51% attack on bitcoin.

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Note that bootstrapping the system is a very delicate part of the process, if you tell me that I need to pay someone in US$ to enter the network then I can only assume that it will fail miserably. Not going to happen. The alternative is basically proof of work of some sort.

The shareholder system does have a big caveat that shareholders will need to exist at the start of the system, but this I plan to resolve by having a community effort in designing and creating the software and awarding shares to people that have an interest in seeing the system succeed. This poses no adoption benefit over early adopters, just a bit of free money. I also plan on requiring that these free shares require at least 6 years of service before being able to be cashed out. Anyone else is free to create money (at the accelerated early adoption rate) and buy a share as well (at the reduced early adoption rate). The system could start out by using proof of work to reach consensus and wait until a minimum number of people have purchased shares before starting the shareholder system, but it will be a lot of extra code for something that isn't strictly necessary. I would never take real money from people for shares, I only used USD as an equivalent value par exemple.

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I can only devote so much time to reading and debating other people's ideas instead of working in my own stuff.

Well hey maybe I can convince you that I'm pretty far along in the ideating process and that you should make these ideas part of your own. Smiley

Francesco
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April 19, 2013, 09:35:24 PM
 #68

Oh, so there IS someone who thought this well before me  Cheesy

The topic is really of actuality right now... any news?
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April 20, 2013, 06:02:56 AM
 #69

I think this sounds great. Please don't let skeptics keep you from giving it a shot.

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