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Question: Should this system replace DefaultTrust? (Your vote may be published.)  (Voting closed: January 10, 2015, 04:19:13 AM)
Yes, it should. - 38 (47.5%)
No, keep DefaultTrust - 42 (52.5%)
Total Voters: 80

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Author Topic: Replacing DefaultTrust  (Read 15640 times)
theymos
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January 07, 2015, 04:07:09 AM
 #121

FYI, I added the top 15 people in your list to my trust settings, and accounts that were proven scammers were showing up in my trusted feedback list.   Undecided

That's because not enough people use trust exclusions. Under the new system, people will need to get into the habit of excluding people who leave bad feedback.

If someone has a trust network like this:

ExamplePerson
  Idiot
    Scammer
  Guy
  Dude

Then either ExamplePerson or Guy and Dude together can cause Scammer to be excluded. So if a decent number of people are excluding people who give bad ratings (or who trust such people), then bad ratings are likely to be excluded.

A second concern is that I think this system is going to be slow to be able to react to someone who was previously honest and later turns into a scammer.

If someone directly trusts a a scammer, then they are indeed in a bad situation, and they'll need to remove the person manually. I might add a warning to trust pages for people who directly trust a scammer if this ever happens.

It's not a big deal at lower depths due to exclusions.

A last concern is one that was touched on before, but not heavily discussed. This system would not be difficult to manipulate, but it would be much more difficult to detect manipulation. One could quietly buy up a lot of accounts then buy a 2nd set of accounts they want to be trusted. The first set of accounts could all have the 2nd set of accounts added to their trust list which would result in them being often suggested for newer users to add to their trust list. More experienced users may not even notice when this is happening because they are not being asked to add new users to their trust list.

You'd need a lot of accounts for that. 20 full members to make the list, ~100 to get reasonably high in it (currently -- the requirements will probably become higher if this system is adopted). And I'd stop this from happening once I'd notice it, so people buying these accounts would be spending a lot of money on only a very short-term advantage.

has anyone put together a concise pros and cons between current and proposed systems?

New system pros:
- More people in the typical trust network, so more default-visible ratings, more accurate scores, etc.
- Newbies will be more aware of how the trust system works, so they'll be more likely to use it properly.
- Everything will be less complicated for everyone involved. You won't be able to know what everyone else sees, so all you'll be able to do is maintain your ratings and trust list according to your own feelings. This is how I intended the trust system to work.
- There won't be people who are clearly "at the top" of the trust system. Furthermore, I will no longer need to carefully ensure that the default trust network is OK for everyone.

New system cons:
- More people in the typical trust network, so inaccurate ratings might happen more often, though they should hopefully be balanced by an increase in accurate ratings.
- People who in practice tend to be at the top of the trust system might feel less accountability/responsibility for maintaining their trust lists than they would if they were listed in DefaultTrust.
- It will be difficult to get a picture of how well someone is trusted for the typical forum user.
- People will need to interact with the trust list system at least a little bit, and not just leave it to DefaultTrust.

I like the suggestion of removing default trust lists completely.

Then newbies will be getting scammed left and right. Newbies need some sort of guidance.

The trust lists of everyone at depth 1 are public, which has historically kept Default Trust mostly comprised of reputable members. This is not the case with the "suggested trust" list under the new system.

All trust lists are public. You can see anyone's trust list by trusting them and then looking at the hierarchical view of the trust network on the Trust Settings page.

My point here is that Default Trust gives a new user a good starting point about who to trust and who not to trust, while this new system asks them to pick their own "Default Trust" pretty much at random, since they will probably have little reason to pick one name over another.

I think that it's OK to trust users at random as long as:
- None of them are creating new accounts to inflate their own trust. The trust score algorithm relies on everyone in a trust network being a separate person. People at depth 0 can trust additional users without consequence if the user trusting them isn't paying attention.
- More of the randomly-trusted users have actively good trust lists than actively bad ones.
- At least a few randomly-trusted users have actively good trust lists.

If these conditions are met, then any incorrect ratings will be excluded by the people with good trust lists.

I think that the suggestion system is likely to result in lists meeting the above criteria. And if a highly-trusted user who was previously suggested starts creating and trusting fake accounts, I'll do something to stop him, or at least warn users.

A quick glance shows that I'm not one of the 50 most trusted members here?

You don't meet the criteria for suggested users. You only have two users on your trust list. You would have 154 points otherwise.

I also see that bobsag3 who openly scammed me and had his original username scammer tagged is on the list, adding positive trust for companies like Black Arrow who have stolen hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars from this community.

He's still quite widely trusted. Users will be able to avoid selecting him on the suggestion page.

I could manually exclude people like him, but doing that would likely be controversial in itself, and I'd prefer to keep this as automated as possible.

Will the new system have the negative trust indexable via the search engines, for as it stands now nary a negative comment has ever been indexed, only found on this forum via jumping through hoops depending on what settings are ticked?

Trust pages are entirely customized per user, so they can't be viewed by non-users such as search engines.

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January 07, 2015, 04:10:56 AM
 #122

@theymos is it possible to view a list of the top 100 or more people in the list?

Message me if you have any problems
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January 07, 2015, 04:18:37 AM
 #123

Here are the points without any of the other restrictions. establishedTrusters = the number of full members and above who trust that person. People are only counted as trusting DefaultTrust if they have edited their trust list at least once.

Code:
+--------------------+---------------------+-----------+
| realName           | establishedTrusters | points    |
+--------------------+---------------------+-----------+
| DefaultTrust       |                1110 | 3525.7408 |
| theymos            |                 104 |  509.8577 |
| John (John K.)     |                  84 |  392.0999 |
| BadBear            |                  43 |  229.0416 |
| Tomatocage         |                  51 |  226.0915 |
| dooglus            |                  45 |  206.4081 |
| Gavin Andresen     |                  30 |  174.4667 |
| Maged              |                  27 |  162.1331 |
| CanaryInTheMine    |                  44 |  161.7747 |
| HostFat            |                  32 |  155.6164 |
| gmaxwell           |                  29 |  154.1247 |
| OgNasty            |                  35 |  154.0579 |
| casascius          |                  25 |  151.5666 |
| DannyHamilton      |                  32 |  139.2000 |
| SaltySpitoon       |                  29 |  135.1082 |
| Blazedout419       |                  26 |  114.2748 |
| ThickAsThieves     |                  23 |  111.3583 |
| escrow.ms          |                  24 |  111.1747 |
| BCB                |                  22 |  110.5665 |
| yxt                |                  23 |  110.1749 |
| Akka               |                  21 |  109.8831 |
| friedcat           |                  24 |  109.7498 |
| phantastisch       |                  20 |  106.1249 |
| burnside           |                  25 |  103.0582 |
| Stunna             |                  24 |  102.5416 |
| tysat              |                  17 |  101.7332 |
| satoshi            |                  19 |   96.7750 |
| SebastianJu        |                  21 |   93.5168 |
| sirius             |                  19 |   89.4330 |
| DeaDTerra          |                  17 |   82.1833 |
| nanotube           |                  12 |   79.8498 |
| qwk                |                  14 |   74.8585 |
| Luke-Jr            |                  20 |   73.4914 |
| Blazr              |                  12 |   71.7498 |
| ghibly79           |                  15 |   71.6500 |
| ckolivas           |                  13 |   69.1250 |
| Carnth             |                  14 |   68.8415 |
| LoweryCBS          |                  10 |   67.8999 |
| jgarzik            |                   9 |   67.6667 |
| bertani            |                  11 |   67.6083 |
| paci               |                  11 |   67.1083 |
| Maidak             |                  20 |   66.3416 |
| dree12             |                   9 |   66.0332 |
| Michail1           |                  12 |   65.6500 |
| El Cabron          |                  22 |   65.5582 |
| diego1000          |                  11 |   64.5499 |
| BigBitz            |                  15 |   62.5416 |
| Sampey             |                  20 |   62.1666 |
| Stemby             |                  10 |   61.0750 |
| malevolent         |                  11 |   58.5415 |
| ziomik             |                  10 |   58.4833 |
| OldScammerTag      |                  12 |   56.5998 |
| xetsr              |                  14 |   55.4666 |
| Raize              |                   9 |   55.1832 |
| mikegogulski       |                   8 |   53.8999 |
| Pieter Wuille      |                   7 |   53.2000 |
| Vod                |                  23 |   52.8914 |
| sublime5447        |                  17 |   52.6166 |
| Kluge              |                  11 |   52.5332 |
| devthedev          |                  11 |   52.4582 |
| BayAreaCoins       |                  10 |   51.9832 |
| bitpop             |                  13 |   50.8417 |
| dwdoc              |                   9 |   50.7499 |
| DiamondCardz       |                   8 |   50.4666 |
| johnniewalker      |                  12 |   50.2749 |
| ercolinux          |                   7 |   50.1083 |
| DeathAndTaxes      |                  11 |   50.0916 |
| rb1205             |                   6 |   49.8583 |
| alexrossi          |                   9 |   49.0583 |
| Benson Samuel      |                  10 |   48.6998 |
| Dabs               |                  11 |   48.4584 |
| bitcoininformation |                  12 |   48.3249 |
| serp               |                  12 |   48.2833 |
| fhh                |                  10 |   48.0916 |
| Nightowlace        |                  14 |   47.7167 |
| klintay            |                  11 |   46.9250 |
| PsychoticBoy       |                  13 |   46.4250 |
| cooldgamer         |                  14 |   46.4084 |
| squall1066         |                  10 |   45.8500 |
| GIANNAT            |                  10 |   45.8167 |
| Cripto             |                   6 |   44.1416 |
| Mushroomized       |                   7 |   43.5582 |
| Bees Brothers      |                   8 |   43.0917 |
| ineededausername   |                   9 |   42.6415 |
| 2weiX              |                   8 |   42.5832 |
| etotheipi          |                   8 |   40.9084 |
| Menig              |                  13 |   40.2667 |
| dozerz             |                  10 |   39.6667 |
| molecular          |                   8 |   39.6417 |
| zefir              |                   9 |   39.3250 |
| KWH                |                  10 |   39.2915 |
| sushi              |                  10 |   39.1249 |
| ssinc              |                   9 |   39.1083 |
| twbt               |                   7 |   39.0167 |
| Rassah             |                   8 |   38.9333 |
| sveetsnelda        |                   7 |   38.8833 |
| philipma1957       |                  12 |   38.7750 |
| evoorhees          |                   6 |   38.5167 |
| TheButterZone      |                  13 |   38.3414 |
| Damnsammit         |                   8 |   37.9500 |
+--------------------+---------------------+-----------+

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January 07, 2015, 05:03:23 AM
 #124

Here are the points without any of the other restrictions. establishedTrusters = the number of full members and above who trust that person. People are only counted as trusting DefaultTrust if they have edited their trust list at least once.

Code:
+--------------------+---------------------+-----------+
| realName           | establishedTrusters | points    |
+--------------------+---------------------+-----------+
| DefaultTrust       |                1110 | 3525.7408 |
| theymos            |                 104 |  509.8577 |
| John (John K.)     |                  84 |  392.0999 |
| BadBear            |                  43 |  229.0416 |
| Tomatocage         |                  51 |  226.0915 |
| dooglus            |                  45 |  206.4081 |
| Gavin Andresen     |                  30 |  174.4667 |
| Maged              |                  27 |  162.1331 |
| CanaryInTheMine    |                  44 |  161.7747 |
| HostFat            |                  32 |  155.6164 |
| gmaxwell           |                  29 |  154.1247 |
| OgNasty            |                  35 |  154.0579 |
| casascius          |                  25 |  151.5666 |
| DannyHamilton      |                  32 |  139.2000 |
| SaltySpitoon       |                  29 |  135.1082 |
| Blazedout419       |                  26 |  114.2748 |
| ThickAsThieves     |                  23 |  111.3583 |
| escrow.ms          |                  24 |  111.1747 |
| BCB                |                  22 |  110.5665 |
| yxt                |                  23 |  110.1749 |
| Akka               |                  21 |  109.8831 |
| friedcat           |                  24 |  109.7498 |
| phantastisch       |                  20 |  106.1249 |
| burnside           |                  25 |  103.0582 |
| Stunna             |                  24 |  102.5416 |
| tysat              |                  17 |  101.7332 |
| satoshi            |                  19 |   96.7750 |
| SebastianJu        |                  21 |   93.5168 |
| sirius             |                  19 |   89.4330 |
| DeaDTerra          |                  17 |   82.1833 |
| nanotube           |                  12 |   79.8498 |
| qwk                |                  14 |   74.8585 |
| Luke-Jr            |                  20 |   73.4914 |
| Blazr              |                  12 |   71.7498 |
| ghibly79           |                  15 |   71.6500 |
| ckolivas           |                  13 |   69.1250 |
| Carnth             |                  14 |   68.8415 |
| LoweryCBS          |                  10 |   67.8999 |
| jgarzik            |                   9 |   67.6667 |
| bertani            |                  11 |   67.6083 |
| paci               |                  11 |   67.1083 |
| Maidak             |                  20 |   66.3416 |
| dree12             |                   9 |   66.0332 |
| Michail1           |                  12 |   65.6500 |
| El Cabron          |                  22 |   65.5582 |
| diego1000          |                  11 |   64.5499 |
| BigBitz            |                  15 |   62.5416 |
| Sampey             |                  20 |   62.1666 |
| Stemby             |                  10 |   61.0750 |
| malevolent         |                  11 |   58.5415 |
| ziomik             |                  10 |   58.4833 |
| OldScammerTag      |                  12 |   56.5998 |
| xetsr              |                  14 |   55.4666 |
| Raize              |                   9 |   55.1832 |
| mikegogulski       |                   8 |   53.8999 |
| Pieter Wuille      |                   7 |   53.2000 |
| Vod                |                  23 |   52.8914 |
| sublime5447        |                  17 |   52.6166 |
| Kluge              |                  11 |   52.5332 |
| devthedev          |                  11 |   52.4582 |
| BayAreaCoins       |                  10 |   51.9832 |
| bitpop             |                  13 |   50.8417 |
| dwdoc              |                   9 |   50.7499 |
| DiamondCardz       |                   8 |   50.4666 |
| johnniewalker      |                  12 |   50.2749 |
| ercolinux          |                   7 |   50.1083 |
| DeathAndTaxes      |                  11 |   50.0916 |
| rb1205             |                   6 |   49.8583 |
| alexrossi          |                   9 |   49.0583 |
| Benson Samuel      |                  10 |   48.6998 |
| Dabs               |                  11 |   48.4584 |
| bitcoininformation |                  12 |   48.3249 |
| serp               |                  12 |   48.2833 |
| fhh                |                  10 |   48.0916 |
| Nightowlace        |                  14 |   47.7167 |
| klintay            |                  11 |   46.9250 |
| PsychoticBoy       |                  13 |   46.4250 |
| cooldgamer         |                  14 |   46.4084 |
| squall1066         |                  10 |   45.8500 |
| GIANNAT            |                  10 |   45.8167 |
| Cripto             |                   6 |   44.1416 |
| Mushroomized       |                   7 |   43.5582 |
| Bees Brothers      |                   8 |   43.0917 |
| ineededausername   |                   9 |   42.6415 |
| 2weiX              |                   8 |   42.5832 |
| etotheipi          |                   8 |   40.9084 |
| Menig              |                  13 |   40.2667 |
| dozerz             |                  10 |   39.6667 |
| molecular          |                   8 |   39.6417 |
| zefir              |                   9 |   39.3250 |
| KWH                |                  10 |   39.2915 |
| sushi              |                  10 |   39.1249 |
| ssinc              |                   9 |   39.1083 |
| twbt               |                   7 |   39.0167 |
| Rassah             |                   8 |   38.9333 |
| sveetsnelda        |                   7 |   38.8833 |
| philipma1957       |                  12 |   38.7750 |
| evoorhees          |                   6 |   38.5167 |
| TheButterZone      |                  13 |   38.3414 |
| Damnsammit         |                   8 |   37.9500 |
+--------------------+---------------------+-----------+

IMHO this list is better than earlier one.

   ~~MZ~~

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January 07, 2015, 05:23:29 AM
 #125

IMHO this list is better than earlier one.

I don't even know how I am on this new list.  I only have "DefaultTrust" in my trust list.

- At least 10 people listed in their trust list

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January 07, 2015, 05:25:33 AM
 #126

IMHO this list is better than earlier one.

I don't even know how I am on this new list.  I only have "DefaultTrust" in my trust list.

- At least 10 people listed in their trust list

That list doesn't have any of the requirements, it is just based on how many people have you in your trust list.

Message me if you have any problems
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January 07, 2015, 05:26:27 AM
 #127

IMHO this list is better than earlier one.

It's basically the same list  -- it's just that some users were removed from the earlier one because they were inactive or didn't have much of a trust list. (I think that a few people became full members in the interim or something, so the numbers are also slightly different.)

I could require that people have 37 points to be suggested...

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January 07, 2015, 05:48:04 AM
 #128

Something i was thinking and after reading a post here (i didnt read all posts yet) i think i will write about it just for the sake of discussion.

So, no we have plus points for people that we have traded successfully and minus points for people that have scammed us.

I propose a third point (lets call it warning points) that it is not correlated with the previous one, which is something like 'i believe that guy is a scammer or is saying bullshit or he is not going to deliver but i have no proofs for that'. And maybe have the option to give different weight each time you leave someone those points. And of course a small comment of why you leave those points.
I propose that because many times i wouldnt trade with someone as i think i am going to get scammed but since i didnt traded with him i dont want to call him a scammer. Or i would like to warn people about him but because his thread is moderated and i cant warn others or because i am not 100% sure again i dont want to call him a scammer.

Over all my thinking is that some of us understand when someone looks shady so we just ignore him but he still exists for the noobs that dont have enough experience.

Of course anyone would get points. And it will be personal. But i believe that after a while it will start showing with the combination of the current system who should one avoid till he gathers more experience. Those who would have less warning points and zero scam points would be with high confidence legit members.

It would also be expected for members with warning points to persuade others to take the points they left back by showing them why. And there should again be a small comment why along with the first allegation.

There are many examples. Like i would like to point out that people should not overtrust the operator of a major exchange but that doesnt mean he is a scammer now. Or maybe that we are pretty sure that this is a sockpuppet member but i cant  prove it again 100%. Maybe we understand that a specific member is a bought account which raises questions but again it doesnt mean 100% he is a scammer...
 
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January 07, 2015, 10:08:06 AM
 #129

Even though my asshole is currently bigger than my head from dooglus' penis on this account which i personally think is huge abuse...
I still think the default trust system is harder to be abused than this suggestion.


That's where I'm leaning. This version becomes too much of a popularity contest, as everyone's vote (within reason) counts, even if they're trolls or smurfs. It doesn't take into account how trusted that person is, for example my trust rating from Inaba:

quote
Quote
Lies about hardware manufacturers. Cons newbies into buying from scam companies. Likely gets kick backs from scammers. DO NOT TRUST THIS PERSON.

counts for 4x as much as a trust rating Olly_K even though that was actually a transaction with a 30 risk.

Not to mention that many of my trust ratings, with Sztef89 for example for 100 risked, shbtc for 210 risked [just the first ones I checked] are not counted under the new system because they have <120 activity. And on top of that, the BFL trust competition ratings (all ~300 of them) would actually get magnified under the proposed system.

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January 07, 2015, 10:10:31 AM
 #130

Why don't you add to the formula that people get 30 random people from the most visited area that the user visits, that means that you'll need a formula to determine the most used forum by an user and then that it poops up 30-50 people from the 5 most visited area of the forums..

Its a dangerous game as it then adds an incentive for scammers to post / make threads, but if used properly could augment another system. I dont think its a system on its own, but sort of represents some of the community-ness of the forums.

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January 07, 2015, 04:41:13 PM
Last edit: January 07, 2015, 04:54:18 PM by MrTeal
 #131

Just a couple comments.
First, in forums where the trust list is visible it might be handy to have a "Trust User" and "Exclude User" button added.
Second, this should be apparent but in the transition the existing trust settings should be kept (as shown in the test page)
Third, if we do transition to a new system based on this it might be a good idea to prompt users to add people they have sent feedback for (positive or negative) to their trust/exclude list in a simple way (radio buttons, checkbox, etc). I would imagine a great number of people aren't aware that they can and should add people to their trust list outside of the feedback system.


Somewhat related to both systems, is it worth investigating an additional level(s) of feedback in the system? Currently there's not really a difference between "This person is acting in a sketchy/slimy way, I don't trust them" and "This person stole 100BTC from me" in the numerical ratings. If people used it properly a separate rating for personality conflicts / general sleaziness as opposed to a full negative scammer rating might see the system used more. I can think of many people I wouldn't personally buy from / do business with / trust, but I don't want to leave negative feedback for given the gravity of it. I have my doubts such a thing would be used properly and personality issues still wouldn't just garner the same 9999BTC risked "This guy is a scammer!1!! He was mean to me in my for sale thread!!1!" feedback we see now.

Edit: Off the cuff suggestion, not well thought through. For the current system, what about adding the ability to moderate feedback left by/for others? The weighting would have to be very light, but in the current cases we see like the recent spats between Vod and other users it could be useful. If Vod leaves a negative trust for someone like iCEBREAKER and the preponderance of people think it is inappropriate, they could partially negate its effect on iCEBREAKER's trust rating. If you have (as an example) a dozen people in your trusted list that disagree with Vod's feedback of iCEBREAKER, the feedback would still remain but it wouldn't display in red as a potential scammer. It might allow default trust to stay while mitigating some of the potential abuses people complain about.
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January 07, 2015, 05:50:25 PM
 #132

First, in forums where the trust list is visible it might be handy to have a "Trust User" and "Exclude User" button added.
This would be a nice thing to have. Adding someone to my trust list is a bit of a hassle. Not much, but having two buttons, makes it a lot easier.

Somewhat related to both systems, is it worth investigating an additional level(s) of feedback in the system? Currently there's not really a difference between "This person is acting in a sketchy/slimy way, I don't trust them" and "This person stole 100BTC from me" in the numerical ratings. If people used it properly a separate rating for personality conflicts / general sleaziness as opposed to a full negative scammer rating might see the system used more. I can think of many people I wouldn't personally buy from / do business with / trust, but I don't want to leave negative feedback for given the gravity of it. I have my doubts such a thing would be used properly and personality issues still wouldn't just garner the same 9999BTC risked "This guy is a scammer!1!! He was mean to me in my for sale thread!!1!" feedback we see now.
I think this is very idea. #bitcoin-otc has -10 to 10 as rating possibility and it helps a lot.

You know someone in person, you two are friends and you would trust him/her with your life? +10. You did a small trade? +1. You don't trust this user because of personality? -1. See Rating guidelines for more. I often feel that a negative is too harsh, so I go back to neutral, even though that doesn't fully reflect my opinion about someone.

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January 07, 2015, 06:26:49 PM
 #133

I think this is very idea.

Such good.

But yes, I think that would be useful. Better than the current "Risked BTC" implementation, at least.

 
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January 07, 2015, 06:50:30 PM
Last edit: January 07, 2015, 07:42:33 PM by TECSHARE
 #134

I wanted to comment on the "trust exclusions". In my opinion this is EVEN WORSE than negatives on the default trust. At least if someone leaves an unjust negative rating the community can see it easily and can confront the user who left it. With trust exclusions it is completely in the dark, and it is FAR MORE destructive than a simple negative rating.

I got to be the first test case for trust exclusions. I at least understood after the fact why I was removed from the default trust list, but the punitive punishment of 2 times of trust exclusion applied to me by high ranking members now means the 3 people who are currently trusting me count as -2 trusting me, because clearly the higher ranking person deserves to be able to negate my ability to ever regain trust again under this system and hold me there permanently if they care to, because no lower ranking members, no matter how numerous can cancel that rating out because they sit at the top of the trust rank. The trust exclusions are FAR MORE EXPLOITABLE than even the current system alone. This is NOT an improvement, but instead centralizes power at the top EVEN MORE. It sounds superficially as if exclusions just remove users from your trust, but in reality it creates a negative trust negating any lower level existing trust listings totally.


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dogie
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January 07, 2015, 07:37:48 PM
 #135

First, in forums where the trust list is visible it might be handy to have a "Trust User" and "Exclude User" button added.
This would be a nice thing to have. Adding someone to my trust list is a bit of a hassle. Not much, but having two buttons, makes it a lot easier.

Oh that reminds me, can we get the trust page added to the same page which holds profile and the other settings? Its in a bit of a weird place at the moment:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust

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January 07, 2015, 08:24:28 PM
 #136

I think the trust system should only be used for trading and nothing else. As it's starting to be used for other things you can see many problems arising and conflict around the forum. People's personal opinions should be kept to themselves as it may not reflect the majority of people's opinions a lot of the time. With a few exceptions to this such as feedback being given for people who are actively stopping scammers or participating in activities that require trust, I think the feedback system should primarily be used just for trading. I don't like how it's being used as a form of attack or punishment in unnecessary situations from users with more feedback weight and how it affects a persons ability to trade, when the feedback being given doesn't really have to do with trust at all. If there is a way for the feedback system to only be used for trading I think it would actively prevent all the complaints around the community where people claim abuse, corruption, etc. After all, it's the trust system and is supposed to be used to gauge someone's trust when trading and not reflect the personal opinions, which are often bias, of members around the forum.
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January 07, 2015, 08:27:46 PM
 #137

Somewhat related to both systems, is it worth investigating an additional level(s) of feedback in the system? Currently there's not really a difference between "This person is acting in a sketchy/slimy way, I don't trust them" and "This person stole 100BTC from me" in the numerical ratings. If people used it properly a separate rating for personality conflicts / general sleaziness as opposed to a full negative scammer rating might see the system used more. I can think of many people I wouldn't personally buy from / do business with / trust, but I don't want to leave negative feedback for given the gravity of it. I have my doubts such a thing would be used properly and personality issues still wouldn't just garner the same 9999BTC risked "This guy is a scammer!1!! He was mean to me in my for sale thread!!1!" feedback we see now.
I think this is very idea. #bitcoin-otc has -10 to 10 as rating possibility and it helps a lot.

You know someone in person, you two are friends and you would trust him/her with your life? +10. You did a small trade? +1. You don't trust this user because of personality? -1. See Rating guidelines for more. I often feel that a negative is too harsh, so I go back to neutral, even though that doesn't fully reflect my opinion about someone.

The problem is that people will abuse it. Don't like someone? -10. Do a good trade? +10. Its the same reason that neutrals really get used on here already, and why youtube swapped to a binary voting system.

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January 07, 2015, 08:32:24 PM
 #138

Somewhat related to both systems, is it worth investigating an additional level(s) of feedback in the system? Currently there's not really a difference between "This person is acting in a sketchy/slimy way, I don't trust them" and "This person stole 100BTC from me" in the numerical ratings. If people used it properly a separate rating for personality conflicts / general sleaziness as opposed to a full negative scammer rating might see the system used more. I can think of many people I wouldn't personally buy from / do business with / trust, but I don't want to leave negative feedback for given the gravity of it. I have my doubts such a thing would be used properly and personality issues still wouldn't just garner the same 9999BTC risked "This guy is a scammer!1!! He was mean to me in my for sale thread!!1!" feedback we see now.
I think this is very idea. #bitcoin-otc has -10 to 10 as rating possibility and it helps a lot.

You know someone in person, you two are friends and you would trust him/her with your life? +10. You did a small trade? +1. You don't trust this user because of personality? -1. See Rating guidelines for more. I often feel that a negative is too harsh, so I go back to neutral, even though that doesn't fully reflect my opinion about someone.

The problem is that people will abuse it. Don't like someone? -10. Do a good trade? +10. Its the same reason that neutrals really get used on here already, and why youtube swapped to a binary voting system.

Yes , let do an example : Now I have two negative feedback but I didn't scam anyone. Have these two feedback the same weight as  other two negative feedback of another user that have scammed someone ?
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January 07, 2015, 08:39:30 PM
 #139

Somewhat related to both systems, is it worth investigating an additional level(s) of feedback in the system? Currently there's not really a difference between "This person is acting in a sketchy/slimy way, I don't trust them" and "This person stole 100BTC from me" in the numerical ratings. If people used it properly a separate rating for personality conflicts / general sleaziness as opposed to a full negative scammer rating might see the system used more. I can think of many people I wouldn't personally buy from / do business with / trust, but I don't want to leave negative feedback for given the gravity of it. I have my doubts such a thing would be used properly and personality issues still wouldn't just garner the same 9999BTC risked "This guy is a scammer!1!! He was mean to me in my for sale thread!!1!" feedback we see now.
I think this is very idea. #bitcoin-otc has -10 to 10 as rating possibility and it helps a lot.

You know someone in person, you two are friends and you would trust him/her with your life? +10. You did a small trade? +1. You don't trust this user because of personality? -1. See Rating guidelines for more. I often feel that a negative is too harsh, so I go back to neutral, even though that doesn't fully reflect my opinion about someone.

The problem is that people will abuse it. Don't like someone? -10. Do a good trade? +10. Its the same reason that neutrals really get used on here already, and why youtube swapped to a binary voting system.

Yes , let do an example : Now I have two negative feedback but I didn't scam anyone. Have these two feedback the same weight as  other two negative feedback of another user that have scammed someone ?
Depends, if BadBear had left a negative feedback with 1000BTC risked, it would have counted for more. In this case, I think the system is actually working pretty well. You don't show up as a scammer, but it does give someone pause that while you've successfully escrowed many transactions, there has been a problem.

Edit: By the same token, if you continue to offer escrow services and do so for a good period of time without incident, I would contact BB if I were you and ask him to change the feedback to a neutral.
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January 07, 2015, 08:42:03 PM
 #140

First, in forums where the trust list is visible it might be handy to have a "Trust User" and "Exclude User" button added.
This would be a nice thing to have. Adding someone to my trust list is a bit of a hassle. Not much, but having two buttons, makes it a lot easier.

Somewhat related to both systems, is it worth investigating an additional level(s) of feedback in the system? Currently there's not really a difference between "This person is acting in a sketchy/slimy way, I don't trust them" and "This person stole 100BTC from me" in the numerical ratings. If people used it properly a separate rating for personality conflicts / general sleaziness as opposed to a full negative scammer rating might see the system used more. I can think of many people I wouldn't personally buy from / do business with / trust, but I don't want to leave negative feedback for given the gravity of it. I have my doubts such a thing would be used properly and personality issues still wouldn't just garner the same 9999BTC risked "This guy is a scammer!1!! He was mean to me in my for sale thread!!1!" feedback we see now.
I think this is very idea. #bitcoin-otc has -10 to 10 as rating possibility and it helps a lot.

You know someone in person, you two are friends and you would trust him/her with your life? +10. You did a small trade? +1. You don't trust this user because of personality? -1. See Rating guidelines for more. I often feel that a negative is too harsh, so I go back to neutral, even though that doesn't fully reflect my opinion about someone.
I will have to agree with this one. This system is much better and he's right.
The amount of trust differs a lot.

This is a very excellent example and I can't even think of a better one.

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