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Question: Do you think Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme like Bernie Madoff?  (Voting closed: January 10, 2015, 08:21:03 PM)
Yes - 17 (14.7%)
No - 99 (85.3%)
Total Voters: 116

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Author Topic: Bitcoin Ponzi scheme or not  (Read 3987 times)
LiteCoinGuy
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January 06, 2015, 06:18:56 AM
Last edit: January 06, 2015, 06:57:59 AM by LiteCoinGuy
 #41

What is this crap? The whole forum has been over this many times, it is not a ponzi scheme. This honestly just seems like a troll account to ruffle some feathers.

only Paybase and Paycoin is a Ponzi (see your sig  Grin! )

-------

Wikipedia defines a ponzi scheme in the following way:

"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. The perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to sustain the scheme."

Now let's see if that fits bitcoin:
-Does bitcoin have central authority? No.
-Does bitcoin pay returns to its investors? No.
-Does bitcoin require an ever increasing flow of money to sustain it? No.

Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme. It's a true innovation in computer science and solves a well known problem called the Byzantine Generals problem.

It's a new type of monetary system based on mathematics and rare numbers. That's why it's a game changer. That's why we see 5-10 million investments to bitcoin startups every week. It has nothing to do with a Ponzi scheme.

---------

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/world-bank-bitcoin-not-ponzi-scheme/

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January 06, 2015, 07:52:52 AM
 #42

...
When there will not be any new fouls to "invest" in Bitcoin, the system will collapse.
...

Bitcoin will not collapse if nobody "invests". It does not need investors. It works well regardless of the value of a bitcoin.

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January 06, 2015, 09:46:55 AM
 #43

bitcoin not ponzi, bitcoin is invesment  Grin
Lethn
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January 06, 2015, 09:49:01 AM
 #44

ponzi because once the buying stops we see bearmarkets like this

So by your reasoning the USD is a ponzi too? Forex markets work the same way.

except other commodities don't suffer such high inflation while being sold as hedge against inflation and equivalent to gold. I think the marketing for btc is fraudulent/missleading so yes it's a ponzi.

Are you a fucking moron? Do you even know what inflation means? I think these guys must be paid trolls to come up with crap like this, Bitcoin can't be inflated because it is limited to 21 million coins, you aren't even using the word inflation correctly, if anything it's a deflationary currency, not that you'd know the difference. I wonder if people from the somethingawful forum decided to make some accounts here to come and mess with people here, the people posting this bullshit are acting like Bitcoin insulted their mothers somehow.
mayax
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January 06, 2015, 10:32:39 AM
 #45

...
When there will not be any new fouls to "invest" in Bitcoin, the system will collapse.
...

Bitcoin will not collapse if nobody "invests". It does not need investors. It works well regardless of the value of a bitcoin.

what you mean with "works well" ?

if nobody investing(come with new money in system), who will use it then? Smiley
please explain. let's say you want to "sell" your bitcoin. to whom will you do it?
mestar
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January 06, 2015, 10:50:50 AM
 #46

Wikipedia defines a ponzi scheme in the following way:

"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. The perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to sustain the scheme."


Bubble conditions of any good or stock take on many traits of a ponzi scheme as described here.

newuser01
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January 06, 2015, 11:17:54 AM
 #47

...
When there will not be any new fouls to "invest" in Bitcoin, the system will collapse.
...

Bitcoin will not collapse if nobody "invests". It does not need investors. It works well regardless of the value of a bitcoin.

what you mean with "works well" ?

if nobody investing(come with new money in system), who will use it then? Smiley
please explain. let's say you want to "sell" your bitcoin. to whom will you do it?

You can sell it to those that already accept bitcoin

Do you not see the difference between a ponzi scheme and bitcoin that works eventhough there is no incoming money?

Its better if more join in but it still WORKS without new people having to constantly buy more. ponzy schemes dont work at all if there is no incoming money.
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January 06, 2015, 11:18:24 AM
 #48

Are you a fucking moron? Do you even know what inflation means? I think these guys must be paid trolls to come up with crap like this, Bitcoin can't be inflated because it is limited to 21 million coins, you aren't even using the word inflation correctly, if anything it's a deflationary currency, not that you'd know the difference. I wonder if people from the somethingawful forum decided to make some accounts here to come and mess with people here, the people posting this bullshit are acting like Bitcoin insulted their mothers somehow.
how can you call btc deflationary when coins are still being produced at a rate faster than most central banks print money. coin limit is kind of irrelevant as it wont be reached til long after all of us are dead.

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Lethn
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January 06, 2015, 11:50:12 AM
 #49

Are you a fucking moron? Do you even know what inflation means? I think these guys must be paid trolls to come up with crap like this, Bitcoin can't be inflated because it is limited to 21 million coins, you aren't even using the word inflation correctly, if anything it's a deflationary currency, not that you'd know the difference. I wonder if people from the somethingawful forum decided to make some accounts here to come and mess with people here, the people posting this bullshit are acting like Bitcoin insulted their mothers somehow.
how can you call btc deflationary when coins are still being produced at a rate faster than most central banks print money. coin limit is kind of irrelevant as it wont be reached til long after all of us are dead.

So you're saying to me that within a month there is more Bitcoin mined than dollars printed? Do you have any maths to back that up? Because I happen to know you are also full of shit if you're claiming that. There's a reason that the Bitcoin price is so high and it isn't that Bitcoin is valuable, it's that the dollar is so worthless, the central banks are printing stupid amounts of paper each month, Bitcoin and precious metals are simply honestly reflecting how much printing is going on.

How about actually reading what people with far more knowledge than you write and do some research on the subject instead of just mindlessly ranting against something you know nothing about?
Gleb Gamow
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January 06, 2015, 11:50:26 AM
 #50

I want to know if anybody in the Bitcoin community think that Bitcoin is a big ponzi scheme like Bernie Madoff. If so please vote Yes or No. Also, please explain why you think that.

11 yeses and 65 nos add up to 76 votes that think that Bitcoin is so a [P]onzi scheme like Bernie Madoff, albeit I must've been living in a cave on El-Adrel IV all my life, for this is the first time I've heard of Bernie Madoff being referred to as a Ponzi scheme. I have heard that some dude having the same namesake operated a Ponzi scheme though, but if 76 people to date state otherwise, then I must be mistaken.

BTW, this is about the half-dozenth time I seen a thread started by a newbie asking basically the same question, close to the same amount of times I seen new threads by others asking what's the best mining hardware to purchase because they just fell into a pile of cash and have free electricity.  Roll Eyes
mayax
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January 06, 2015, 12:45:41 PM
 #51

...
When there will not be any new fouls to "invest" in Bitcoin, the system will collapse.
...

Bitcoin will not collapse if nobody "invests". It does not need investors. It works well regardless of the value of a bitcoin.

what you mean with "works well" ?

if nobody investing(come with new money in system), who will use it then? Smiley
please explain. let's say you want to "sell" your bitcoin. to whom will you do it?

You can sell it to those that already accept bitcoin

Do you not see the difference between a ponzi scheme and bitcoin that works eventhough there is no incoming money?

Its better if more join in but it still WORKS without new people having to constantly buy more. ponzy schemes dont work at all if there is no incoming money.

then Bitcoin should not be related to fiat currency at all.
Imagine that you have an online store who is selling laptops and you accept bitcoin.

you already "bought" these laptops from a manufacturer with 1000 usd each and you want to sell with 1500 each.

You see that the bitcoin price is 1BTC = 270 USD and you set 5 BTC for one laptop.
someone is buying one laptop with 5 BTC BUT you as a business(company) needs to pay your bills(gas, salaries, electricity) too and nobody is accepting Bitcoin. You will want to get cash for your 5 BTC.

You will have to find an exchanger and when you want to exchange...surprise !.
5 BTC = 900 USD because the Bitcoin price fell. Smiley

you have loss even you did your work very good.

Bitcoin is a speculative bubble — that is, a special kind of fad, a mania for holding an asset in expectation of its appreciation.

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January 06, 2015, 12:53:05 PM
 #52

I think it is more like a speculative tech stock than a ponzi scheme.

Many early investors got in cheap but they had a very high risk of ruin. Once Bitcoin became successful they were richly rewarded but, in tech, you see the 1 success not the 9999 failures. For every Microsoft or Google millionaire, there are 5 pets.com paupers.
newuser01
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January 06, 2015, 12:55:49 PM
 #53

...
When there will not be any new fouls to "invest" in Bitcoin, the system will collapse.
...

Bitcoin will not collapse if nobody "invests". It does not need investors. It works well regardless of the value of a bitcoin.

what you mean with "works well" ?

if nobody investing(come with new money in system), who will use it then? Smiley
please explain. let's say you want to "sell" your bitcoin. to whom will you do it?

You can sell it to those that already accept bitcoin

Do you not see the difference between a ponzi scheme and bitcoin that works eventhough there is no incoming money?

Its better if more join in but it still WORKS without new people having to constantly buy more. ponzy schemes dont work at all if there is no incoming money.

then Bitcoin should not be related to fiat currency at all.
Imagine that you have an online store who is selling laptops and you accept bitcoin.

you already "bought" these laptops from a manufacturer with 1000 usd each and you want to sell with 1500 each.

You see that the bitcoin price is 1BTC = 270 USD and you set 5 BTC for one laptop.
someone is buying one laptop with 5 BTC BUT you as a business(company) needs to pay your bills(gas, salaries, electricity) too and nobody is accepting Bitcoin. You will want to get cash for your 5 BTC.

You will have to find an exchanger and when you want to exchange...surprise !.
5 BTC = 900 USD because the Bitcoin price fell. Smiley

you have loss even you did your work very good.

Bitcoin is a speculative bubble — that is, a special kind of fad, a mania for holding an asset in expectation of its appreciation.



ok

but this has nothing to do with if bitcoin is a ponzi or not.. which is what you asked

and I dont think bitcoin is a fad, I think it is still in the very early stages and can really become the (or one of the biggest) global currencies with no borders. (also help the unbanked).

Is it speculative? yes
a ponzi? no
Oscilson
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January 06, 2015, 01:00:45 PM
 #54

You can sell it to those that already accept bitcoin

Do you not see the difference between a ponzi scheme and bitcoin that works eventhough there is no incoming money?

Its better if more join in but it still WORKS without new people having to constantly buy more. ponzy schemes dont work at all if there is no incoming money.

BTC has its own ecosystem, not like Ponzi which requires outside money.
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January 06, 2015, 01:27:52 PM
 #55

So you're saying to me that within a month there is more Bitcoin mined than dollars printed? Do you have any maths to back that up? Because I happen to know you are also full of shit if you're claiming that. There's a reason that the Bitcoin price is so high and it isn't that Bitcoin is valuable, it's that the dollar is so worthless, the central banks are printing stupid amounts of paper each month, Bitcoin and precious metals are simply honestly reflecting how much printing is going on.
https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_currency_in_circulation
http://www.coindesk.com/data/bitcoin-total-circulation/

8.55% more $ in circulation than a year ago and 12% more btc

but that couple of % points difference isnt that much of a big deal the main difference is that the newly created out of thin air dollars don't get dumped on international exchanges at any price because someone needs to pay an electricity bill in a different currency

Quote
How about actually reading what people with far more knowledge than you write and do some research on the subject instead of just mindlessly ranting against something you know nothing about?

so much more knowledgeable than me but couldn't figure out when the guy said inflation he obviously meant mining

whats up with everyone on this forum getting annoyed when you point out obvious things in plain english. btc is not deflationary. the coin limit has no bearing on the value now and things are likely to get worse for at least a couple more halvings unless we get lucky and some bored billionaires help out. not personally sold a single coin because i'm a degenerate gambler at heart but thats something else.

Be radical, have principles, be absolute, be that which the bourgeoisie calls an extremist: give yourself without counting or calculating, don't accept what they call ‘the reality of life' and act in such a way that you won't be accepted by that kind of ‘life', never abandon the principle of struggle.
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January 06, 2015, 02:38:57 PM
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 #56

Such threads are why I miss the newbie jail.
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January 06, 2015, 03:30:56 PM
Last edit: January 06, 2015, 03:47:13 PM by HYPERfuture
 #57

Bitcoin is like a ponzi scheme.
No new comers, the price is falling ,right?

More new comers, the price is raising Smiley  same for HYIPs. they last as long there are new comers.
yes, the Bitcoin system itself can last but useless if nobody is using it.

Now, Bitcoin is used for cyber crimes and speculative investment(short period of time).

Seriously are you guys getting paid for this or something? I don't see why people would waste their life on a forum just to trash talk something all day.

There more people using bitcoin than ever before and the price of a bitcoin is irrelevant when it comes to the technology.

You seem vexed.

I'm not vexed just annoyed by all the sockpuppets here saying things that ARE NOT TRUE. If anyone represents something false as true it annoys me no matter what the subject matter is.

World Bank says bitcoin is not a ponzi scheme https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/world-bank-bitcoin-not-ponzi-scheme/

...
When there will not be any new fouls to "invest" in Bitcoin, the system will collapse.
...

Bitcoin will not collapse if nobody "invests". It does not need investors. It works well regardless of the value of a bitcoin.

This is also true bitcoin is first and foremost a technology. People buying bitcoin has zero effect on the technology of the blockchain functioning as it should. The idea of blockchain is a primary technological innovation.

HYPER Gaming Currency -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=624651 GP RPG Currency -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1053441 https://cryptogalaxies.com -> Blockchain Based Space Strategy MMO. Crypto Galaxies on Bitcointalk -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1374470
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January 06, 2015, 03:37:56 PM
Last edit: January 06, 2015, 06:48:18 PM by Lethn
 #58


You haven't even done the maths right, which is why I seriously object when I see even professional journalists making the classic mistake of using percentages, the point is it's several hundred billion dollars that has no limit vs an absolute hard cap of 21 million coins, in this case, the percentage means nothing. Also, you're completely ignoring the fact that not only will there have been billions of new bills printed but also that there will be billions more in bonds and digital numbers created constantly compared to Bitcoin where again the hard limit is only 21 Million.

A limitation on the money supply always affects the price, that is why precious metals have always been worth more aside from their applications in industries, also you and a number of people when discussing economics don't write in plain english, you blatantly make up bullshit and when you get it wrong you make up for it with complicated vocabulary you don't understand in order to cover it up.

Yet again people like you prove that you have absolutely no understanding of how currencies are created or how the overall supply affects the price.
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January 06, 2015, 03:54:12 PM
 #59

The poll results are basically equivalent to asking "Are you a troll?" Yes: 15%

First seastead company actually selling sea homes: Ocean Builders https://ocean.builders  Of course we accept bitcoin.
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January 06, 2015, 04:51:30 PM
 #60

Bitcoin is like a ponzi scheme.
No new comers, the price is falling ,right?

More new comers, the price is raising Smiley  same for HYIPs. they last as long there are new comers.
yes, the Bitcoin system itself can last but useless if nobody is using it.

Now, Bitcoin is used for cyber crimes and speculative investment(short period of time).

Seriously are you guys getting paid for this or something? I don't see why people would waste their life on a forum just to trash talk something all day.

There more people using bitcoin than ever before and the price of a bitcoin is irrelevant when it comes to the technology.

You seem vexed.

I'm not vexed just annoyed by all the sockpuppets here saying things that ARE NOT TRUE. If anyone represents something false as true it annoys me no matter what the subject matter is.

World Bank says bitcoin is not a ponzi scheme https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/world-bank-bitcoin-not-ponzi-scheme/

...
When there will not be any new fouls to "invest" in Bitcoin, the system will collapse.
...

Bitcoin will not collapse if nobody "invests". It does not need investors. It works well regardless of the value of a bitcoin.

This is also true bitcoin is first and foremost a technology. People buying bitcoin has zero effect on the technology of the blockchain functioning as it should. The idea of blockchain is a primary technological innovation.


who said something about the Bitcoin tech? it's like you said "that HYIPs is using PHP for its website". So what? PHP is used for many application.

Bitcoin system is a bubble as it is now. Yes, there are a lot of interests around it because some people make a lot of money from new comers but it's a bubble in the end. Smiley

That's why "you" need to appear in the news, conferences and so on.

What would this "blockchain " without the new so called "investors", without money? why do you need the Bitcoin to be "traded"?
make  1 BTC = 1 USD and done. no price fluctuation Smiley

No, you need the price fluctuation in order to get new fouls otherwise will be like any other e-currency.
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