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Author Topic: Diablo Mining Company will never buy Butterfly Labs hardware  (Read 10367 times)
ice_chill
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July 05, 2012, 01:31:00 PM
 #21

I can confirm this thread was stickied at the start.
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ice_chill
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July 05, 2012, 01:35:43 PM
 #22

So if butterfly labs does come with an asic and the difficulty gets 100x as high, diablo mining is out of the market until another company comes with an asic?

Not at all. Butterfly Labs has yet to prove their BitForce SC products exist and are what they claim they are. Also, using Virtex 7 XC7V2000Ts over Spartan 6s could lead to a 23x increase of performance per chip, which really takes the wind out of BFL's ASICs.

28nm FPGAs may make it to the Bitcoin market before SCs ship in October 2013.

While performance could come close, Virtex 7 2000 can never compete with the price of BFL's ASIC, and at the end of the day, the main concern is how quickly can you pay off for the hardware.
-----
Also I don't know what they did to upset you, but if you thought you are entitled to some special treatment because you are a mining company, than that's your problem, BFL treats every customer the same regardless of their order size, and we all have to spend time waiting for responses etc..
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July 05, 2012, 01:43:01 PM
 #23

While performance could come close, Virtex 7 2000 can never compete with the price of BFL's ASIC, and at the end of the day, the main concern is how quickly can you pay off for the hardware.

And lets not mention power consumption. 'per chip' is an utterly meaningless metric, particularly when per GH costs and power efficiency of asics can be two orders of magnitude higher for any given process.

Anyway, there is no point trying to talk sense in to D3D.

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July 05, 2012, 02:12:50 PM
 #24

good thing i didn't invest in your "mining" company

solely based on this thread and your damage control with making it seem that it was never stickied, you can't be even trusted with mod privileges much less with other's money.

PS btw reason i didn't invest in the first place is you set unreasonably, overoptimistic high goals and then when i sow you started trading your shares for other mining bonds figured you wouldn't be able to get for them same value you traded them for initially.

and with statements in OP you are even further devaluing your stock. good luck.
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July 05, 2012, 02:13:20 PM
 #25

I would not go as far as saying D3 is pure trolling.  

I do think that while D3 has a right to represent his mining operation and express his opinion publicly, using his Mod account to do so can be seen as a biased move where you'd hope to have impartial mods.

So, it's a conflict of interest and should have been posted under a mining company account.

There has been growing discontent due to BFL's lack of transparency and CS fumbles while customers wait quite a long time for BFL to produce.  It's no surprise people are worried and speculate about BFL's intentions.
Miners are currently BFL's only market.  Due to continued slow performance with a customer base of only a few thousand scrutiny placed on BFL is intensifying.  Since BFL is, by far, the market leader in custom bitcoin hashing gear and already positioning itself as a mining monopoly, if even indirectly, a symbiotic relationship between BFL and the mining community is developing.  With such a potentially close relationship - and the technicals of mining profitability - a nearly sole vendor-market business with pure business interest could result in a parasitic effect on the mining community.  With mining financials indexed to the same revenue source the mining community is at the same time BFL's investor and a form of lame-duck competition.  Once BFL represents 80%+ of mining gear capacity it would be difficult for any vendor-side free market competition to arise to help establish a climate of self regulation and less risk.  In a monopoly environment a lack of a mining community association, one that would represent interests and with negotiating power, shows we have no desire for power and we are willing to have terms dictated with no real recourse for poor performance or adverse action.


I don't think D3 deserves your hate as some have expressed, but I agree D3 delivering company announcements under forum mod is wrong.

Edit:
You can look at what D3 did and not be impressed, sure.  Even take it up with Theymos or whomever.  But I look at a lot of the responses here and across the forum and I just see a lot of flaming.
I've done some flaming myself and I'm trying not to engage in doing this anymore.  It's just so unproductive.



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July 05, 2012, 02:14:44 PM
 #26

d3 wants to be trusted with money... i would rather trust bfl, and i would rather fuck myself with a cactus than trust bfl...
ZZZZZZLOOOOLLL

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DiabloD3
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July 05, 2012, 03:02:03 PM
 #27

Also I don't know what they did to upset you, but if you thought you are entitled to some special treatment because you are a mining company, than that's your problem, BFL treats every customer the same regardless of their order size, and we all have to spend time waiting for responses etc..

Its not what they did to me, its what they did to everyone else. They expect us to act like normal consumers, yet they ask for 100% of the money up front. Either treat people like the investors they are, or learn how to run a business.

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July 05, 2012, 03:05:11 PM
 #28

Was the public announcement necessary?

Fake Edit: more cheap shares for me!

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July 05, 2012, 03:06:11 PM
 #29

As numerous people have confirmed, I can also confirm this thread was stickied. I really don't know why there is a reason to lie about that. But it doesn't make D3D more trustworthy, that's for sure...

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July 05, 2012, 03:06:47 PM
 #30

While performance could come close, Virtex 7 2000 can never compete with the price of BFL's ASIC, and at the end of the day, the main concern is how quickly can you pay off for the hardware.

And lets not mention power consumption. 'per chip' is an utterly meaningless metric, particularly when per GH costs and power efficiency of asics can be two orders of magnitude higher for any given process.

Anyway, there is no point trying to talk sense in to D3D.


BFL has not stated the power consumption of their SC minirigs, and their chips might be 130 or 90mm fab, while Virtex 7 is 28nm.

Even if Virtex 7s or Kintex 7s cost 3x more per mhash to what BFL claims theirs do, so what? At least the vendors of existing Spartan 6 products actually have shown to be committed to their relationship with the Bitcoin community, and these will be most likely the ones that are making Kintex/Virtex 7 products.

DiabloD3
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July 05, 2012, 03:16:50 PM
 #31

As numerous people have confirmed, I can also confirm this thread was stickied. I really don't know why there is a reason to lie about that. But it doesn't make D3D more trustworthy, that's for sure...

I haven't seen it stickied, so I'm not lying about anything.

ice_chill
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July 05, 2012, 03:17:49 PM
 #32

While performance could come close, Virtex 7 2000 can never compete with the price of BFL's ASIC, and at the end of the day, the main concern is how quickly can you pay off for the hardware.

And lets not mention power consumption. 'per chip' is an utterly meaningless metric, particularly when per GH costs and power efficiency of asics can be two orders of magnitude higher for any given process.

Anyway, there is no point trying to talk sense in to D3D.


BFL has not stated the power consumption of their SC minirigs, and their chips might be 130 or 90mm fab, while Virtex 7 is 28nm.

Even if Virtex 7s or Kintex 7s cost 3x more per mhash to what BFL claims theirs do, so what? At least the vendors of existing Spartan 6 products actually have shown to be committed to their relationship with the Bitcoin community, and these will be most likely the ones that are making Kintex/Virtex 7 products.

I have no idea how much they cost, but judging by the real cost of BFL's FPGAs in the MiniRig, and the fact that 28nm is very new so will be very expensive with no 2nd hand market, I would estimate at best you are looking at $1500 for 5GH Virtex7 vs $300 for 7GH with 2 ASIC coffee warmers.
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July 05, 2012, 03:22:40 PM
 #33

I don't think D3 deserves your hate as some have expressed, but I agree D3 delivering company announcements under forum mod is wrong.

Edit:
You can look at what D3 did and not be impressed, sure.  Even take it up with Theymos or whomever.  But I look at a lot of the responses here and across the forum and I just see a lot of flaming.
I've done some flaming myself and I'm trying not to engage in doing this anymore.  It's just so unproductive.

I do not maintain separate forum accounts, as that is a form of sockpuppeting. If I want to do mod actions, you will clearly see me doing mod actions. I have not used my mod powers to promote DMC.

People will use anything they can get their hands on to troll with, including attacking someone based on how much of their time they donate to a community.

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July 05, 2012, 03:32:34 PM
 #34

While performance could come close, Virtex 7 2000 can never compete with the price of BFL's ASIC, and at the end of the day, the main concern is how quickly can you pay off for the hardware.

And lets not mention power consumption. 'per chip' is an utterly meaningless metric, particularly when per GH costs and power efficiency of asics can be two orders of magnitude higher for any given process.

Anyway, there is no point trying to talk sense in to D3D.


BFL has not stated the power consumption of their SC minirigs, and their chips might be 130 or 90mm fab, while Virtex 7 is 28nm.

Even if Virtex 7s or Kintex 7s cost 3x more per mhash to what BFL claims theirs do, so what? At least the vendors of existing Spartan 6 products actually have shown to be committed to their relationship with the Bitcoin community, and these will be most likely the ones that are making Kintex/Virtex 7 products.

I have no idea how much they cost, but judging by the real cost of BFL's FPGAs in the MiniRig, and the fact that 28nm is very new so will be very expensive with no 2nd hand market, I would estimate at best you are looking at $1500 for 5GH Virtex7 vs $300 for 7GH with 2 ASIC coffee warmers.

Most likely BFL will miss the October date.

Lets say the Virtex 7 is 13x more usable slices and can be clocked 2x what Spartan 6s are stable at, thats around 7.2ghash. I think someone on the forums said they'd cost about $1000 each, so we're looking at, say, a $1200 product price. Thats only 4x more expensive per mh.

Rolling this as a SASIC could drop the price even more and also increase the stable clock speed 3-4x over Spartan 6s, or 10.8 - 14.4 ghash for, say, a $1000 product. Thats in the same ballpark as what BFL is claiming.

bitfury
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July 05, 2012, 03:37:03 PM
 #35

Well, agree with DiabloD3 - PRE-ORDER == INVESTMENT... Just in hidden form 0%-interest for company and without any shares to investor...

And also these investors have very few rights, as I bet they even do not know which ASIC they are truly going to implement. Say they can promise "full-custom" ASIC, but produce structured ASIC, that will be blown off when someone else invest into cell-based ASIC or big 28-nm FPGAs deal.
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July 05, 2012, 03:51:32 PM
 #36

4 times can mean the difference between 1 year to pay off, and 4 years to pay off, so still quite a gap in my opinion.

---
Or even with half price FPGA resale value, still 2 years to pay off before profit comes rolling in, assuming power consumption can match the ASIC.
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July 05, 2012, 04:00:05 PM
 #37

I still think attacking a company based on speculation is a douche move.  Wait until they fail to deliver (again) exactly what they promise and then discuss.

Otherwise there are plenty of *** speculation threads here already. 

Now amazingly the thread isnt sticky and the *** trolls enterpoint thread is also no longer sticky.

Hope that was the other mods stepping in and curbing the misuse of moderator status.

It was clearly a troll move as the speculation about *** is already available in other threads AND his shareholders were already aware of his position (he alluded to this already)
SO the only reason was to incite some form of reaction, the very definition of trolling.

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July 05, 2012, 04:04:47 PM
 #38

Can we get this moved here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=81.0

Or somewhere else besides the hardware forum?

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July 05, 2012, 04:18:26 PM
 #39

Wow..

Can we get this moved here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=81.0

Or somewhere else besides the hardware forum?

Agreed.

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July 05, 2012, 04:22:28 PM
 #40

...
Diablo Mining Company will be the largest Bitcoin startup in the world, and we will do it without the help of Butterfly Labs.
...
Shocked Roll Eyes Shocked Roll Eyes Shocked

I smell brain fart...

Edit : Agree on :
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