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Author Topic: What provisions does NAP have to stay NAP?  (Read 1825 times)
myrkul
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July 07, 2012, 08:10:37 AM
 #21

Let's be clear: Imagine a neighborhood where all the houses are painted green. I ask how it will be that it can be guaranteed that all the houses will stay green. And you reply: "In a neighborhood with green-house-loving homeowners, those who paint their houses brown will be known as brown-house-loving homeowners."

Am I then supposed to assume that their is some law that is enforced which says only green house homeowners may live in this neighborhood?

No, but then, "Brown-house-loving homeowner" does not mean anything beyond people who like living in a brown house. Criminal, on the other hand, has a very specific meaning:
Quote
noun
a person guilty or convicted of a crime.

The crime in question, of course, is aggressing against someone:

Quote
No person has the right to initiate the use of force or fraud against another person.

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July 07, 2012, 05:15:10 PM
 #22

Let's be clear: Imagine a neighborhood where all the houses are painted green. I ask how it will be that it can be guaranteed that all the houses will stay green. And you reply: "In a neighborhood with green-house-loving homeowners, those who paint their houses brown will be known as brown-house-loving homeowners."

Am I then supposed to assume that their is some law that is enforced which says only green house homeowners may live in this neighborhood?

No, but then, "Brown-house-loving homeowner" does not mean anything beyond people who like living in a brown house. Criminal, on the other hand, has a very specific meaning:
Quote
noun
a person guilty or convicted of a crime.

The crime in question, of course, is aggressing against someone:

Quote
No person has the right to initiate the use of force or fraud against another person.

I'm still waiting for the answer which will show how your NAP-Land stays a NAP-Land.
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July 07, 2012, 06:08:23 PM
 #23

I don't get it. NAP has no means of remaining NAP. NAP is meaningless and useless.

It's just a way to live, like vegetarianism or celibacy. If you live it you live it if you don't you don't.

I have come to the conclusion that none of you actually understand how insignificant NAP is without a proper solution and answer to the question posed in this thread title.

Answer this then: What provisions does Christianity have to stay Christianity?

Christianity does not depend on everyone within a region being Christian to work. NAP does require everyone to be a devout NAPster, else it simply doesn't actually exist or function.

I think Christianity is a really good example, actually. Forget the morality and theological stuff for a second and assume Christianity has an economic reason for existence: it's a social group with clear benefits. You might be putting yourself at a slight disadvantage by being nonviolent and going to church every Sunday, but it's outweighed by the social advantages. Christians want to do business with other good Christians who can be trusted.

If I'm an Atheist, accepting Christmas presents without offering anything in return, it may seem as if I've cleverly beaten the system. Free presents! But in everyone else's eyes I'm a cheapskate outsider, and the gift-giver has demonstrated his kindness and trustworthiness as a future associate.

So let's apply that to the NAP. If I start a crime spree shooting people, then members of the defending posse are showing that they "play by the rules" of the group and can be trusted more.

This is where things start to get messy. How much can I get away with? How much centralization of force will people tolerate? I don't know for sure, but I assume it's similar to religion - the higher the local percentage of believers, the stronger the social norms. Much weirder social structures have already existed than "don't start fights".

Btw "NAPster" I love it! Cheesy
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July 07, 2012, 06:25:15 PM
 #24

I don't get it. NAP has no means of remaining NAP. NAP is meaningless and useless.

It's just a way to live, like vegetarianism or celibacy. If you live it you live it if you don't you don't.

I have come to the conclusion that none of you actually understand how insignificant NAP is without a proper solution and answer to the question posed in this thread title.

Answer this then: What provisions does Christianity have to stay Christianity?

Christianity does not depend on everyone within a region being Christian to work. NAP does require everyone to be a devout NAPster, else it simply doesn't actually exist or function.

I think Christianity is a really good example, actually. Forget the morality and theological stuff for a second and assume Christianity has an economic reason for existence: it's a social group with clear benefits. You might be putting yourself at a slight disadvantage by being nonviolent and going to church every Sunday, but it's outweighed by the social advantages. Christians want to do business with other good Christians who can be trusted.

If I'm an Atheist, accepting Christmas presents without offering anything in return, it may seem as if I've cleverly beaten the system. Free presents! But in everyone else's eyes I'm a cheapskate outsider, and the gift-giver has demonstrated his kindness and trustworthiness as a future associate.

So let's apply that to the NAP. If I start a crime spree shooting people, then members of the defending posse are showing that they "play by the rules" of the group and can be trusted more.

This is where things start to get messy. How much can I get away with? How much centralization of force will people tolerate? I don't know for sure, but I assume it's similar to religion - the higher the local percentage of believers, the stronger the social norms. Much weirder social structures have already existed than "don't start fights".

Btw "NAPster" I love it! Cheesy

Christianity has had to evolve to stay relevant. And it's still losing out.
myrkul
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July 07, 2012, 07:09:11 PM
 #25

I'm still waiting for the answer which will show how your NAP-Land stays a NAP-Land.

In a region where the people follow the Non-Aggression Principle, those who do not are know as criminals. Plain and simple.

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July 07, 2012, 07:17:38 PM
 #26

I'm still waiting for the answer which will show how your NAP-Land stays a NAP-Land.

In a region where the people follow the Non-Aggression Principle, those who do not are know as criminals. Plain and simple.

So your system will cease being NAP when there are enough people who want something different?
myrkul
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July 07, 2012, 07:26:36 PM
 #27

I'm still waiting for the answer which will show how your NAP-Land stays a NAP-Land.

In a region where the people follow the Non-Aggression Principle, those who do not are know as criminals. Plain and simple.

So your system will cease being NAP when there are enough people who want something different?

How is that different from any other system?

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No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
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July 07, 2012, 11:21:52 PM
 #28

Christianity does not depend on everyone within a region being Christian to work. NAP does, else it simply doesn't actually exist or function.

That is where you're wrong. In a region where the people follow the Non-Aggression Principle, those who do not are know as criminals. Plain and simple.


Great! You're already following the Non-Aggression Principle. What's your problem with it, then?

A lot.

1. People can be marginalized, bullied, lynched, and maimed or killed by "Y" type events.
because of people not aggressing against each other?

2. The environment is destroyed by edge effects.
NAP causes environmental destruction...? Actually, governments are the worst polluters and remove market incentives to clean the environment.

3. It has no provision to protect global resources.
"provision"? NAP is not an act of parliament, it's not a political system.

Protect global resources from what? In a free society resources are privately owned, the private owner pays protection of his resources and has personal interest in maintaining their value.

4. The unregulated free market will (as it always does) drive the resources of diminishing natural capital into non-existence.
Actually, the free market make the most efficient use of scarce resources possible. It's the government backed by force that causes all the waste as it is unaccountable the values of the market (the price system).

5. There is no consistency with regard to rules when venturing off your property.
Standards of behaviors will emerge just like they do in software protocols eg. bitcoin. The market will solve these problems in an efficient manner. You don't need to violently impose rules that the "majority" feels should exist.

6. It appears to be a lawsuit happy society.
It seems that this is what we have now. More laws == more lawsuits. In a free society, where laws aren't imposed by an unaccountable monopoly on force, the laws or "socially acceptable behaviors" will be optimised for economic efficiency. People will only pay for protections that's economically viable and protections will only mean "protection from force".

7. It appears to be a society with endless tolls and fees.
It's appears so at first glance, but you have to accept that the market is vastly more intelligent than any individual and will converge to an efficient solution for roads and any other infrastructure that the government currently subsidies/monopolizes. Destructive behaviors will be rejected by the market, such as building a road that completely encloses a community and restricting travel, this could even be considered an act of aggression.

8. Freedom is heavily restricted except for when on your own property, and even then that is suspect, because of the money that must be paid for protection to ensure that freedom.
You are free to do as you will, except to be an aggressor against another or their property.

Arguing that it would be too expensive is a bit asinine when the government currently takes > 50% or our wealth. You can have mafia protection or buy it in a competitive market, surely free market protection will be cheaper.

9. Even if it was perfect (which it is not), it has no provision to ensure its continued survival. See this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91793.0
Are you saying that giving people the right to initiate force will somehow ensure continued survival?


You identify some legitimate social problems: Gang violence, environmental destruction, resource depletion. Why do you take if for granted that the only way to solve these problems is by initiating force? Don't you see the causal relationship between these social problems and the existence of the state? The government creates this mess and it does it all by initiating force.


When most people accept the NAP and see that the state is a direct violation of it, the state will naturally dissolve. So let me ask you: How will you form a state in a free society where most people accept the NAP? Without the moral blessing of the people, how will you collect taxes? how will you enforce laws? when these things are seen as a direct violations of the core principal of society?

Remember, the government NEEDS the perceived moral legitimacy to maintain it's control. That is why we are constantly propagandized by the education system and the media about the virtue of the state. A free society will not only maintain itself, as you contest, but will in fact emerge from statism as the critical mass of NAP adherents is reached.
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July 08, 2012, 01:48:13 AM
 #29

asdf,

Mostly I saw a bunch of repeated assumptions about free markets with no actual research on your part.
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July 08, 2012, 02:25:15 AM
 #30

...

1. No.

2. No: Rich entities and the checkerboard syndrome. Presumably, rich entities exist in NAP-land, and everything about NAP encourages the checkerboard effect.

3. No. Think and research harder, and please don't make me repeat myself fifty times.

4. No. Pull your head out of the libertarian economics book and increase your knowledge. Again, I don't want to repeat myself, especially to deaf ears.

5. No. Humans are far from consistent.

6. So you say. Where have you seen this in action?

7. The market operates on limited knowledge, and more precisely, within the entire market are sub markets composed of a limited set of individuals primarily interested in satisfying their own interests by using a limited set of knowledge. Oh my gosh, please go study my comments in another recent thread.

8. Wealth is relative to what is available to you. So many factors, and such a simple little reply you made.
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July 08, 2012, 07:10:04 AM
 #31


Sooo... you're not making a case against NAP with point 1.?

2. No: Rich entities and the checkerboard syndrome. Presumably, rich entities exist in NAP-land, and everything about NAP encourages the checkerboard effect.

I don't know what checkerboard syndrome is. link?

How does NAP lead to the environment being destroyed by edge effects? If you own land and someones actions are damaging your property, you enter arbitration for damages. I don't see how this is a problem with NAP.

How does initiating force prevent environmental destruction?

3. No. Think and research harder, and please don't make me repeat myself fifty times....

I feel the same way about you.

People pay for the protection of their own property and any natural resources there of. Why is violence necessary?

4. No. Pull your head out of the libertarian economics book and increase your knowledge. Again, I don't want to repeat myself, especially to deaf ears....

Is it your position then, that the initiation of force will prevent resource depletion?

Really, answer the question, Yes or No, and back it up with reasoning. This kind of response gets us no where. Just saying "your wrong, read a book" is a cop out.

Resources will be used because we want to use them. How is it productive or desirable to use force to prevent the consumption of resources that people wish to consume? If it's a matter of efficiency then I make the case that voluntary trade is more efficient than coercive trade. If you disagree with this premise, please say so and why.

5. No. Humans are far from consistent....

True, but this is a non-sequiter. humans establish social customs in all facets of life. We shake hands when we greet. we put the fork on the left and the knife on the right. We talk the same language. This is not achieved through force. though these customs may vary from culture to culture, still, within a culture, social standards emerge. I see no reason why they should not emerge with regard to "social etiquette when occupying others property".

You think that people other than the property owner should use force to impose their own standard of behavior for people on their property?

6. So you say. Where have you seen this in action?...

seen what? A lawsuit happy state or a free society where laws are determined by the market?

For the first, pretty much every state is like this. The number of laws and lawyers just keeps growing.

For the second, see Lex mercatoria.

Besides, the point is that this is how the market functions in general; the customer is always right. If you are in the business of arbitration or dispute resolution, you will have "laws" that your customers think are best, if not you go out of business. If the customer wants lots of laws and law suits then this is what they will have and vice versa.

7. The market operates on limited knowledge, and more precisely, within the entire market are sub markets composed of a limited set of individuals primarily interested in satisfying their own interests by using a limited set of knowledge. Oh my gosh, please go study my comments in another recent thread....

The knowledge of the market is enshrined in the price of all goods and services. This is all the knowledge the market requires to make efficient economic decisions. Do you agree with this?

Will it be tolls or something else? I don't know. Voluntary trade will most certainly find a more optimal solution to transportation than a bureaucrat with a gun.

8. Wealth is relative to what is available to you. So many factors, and such a simple little reply you made....

Seems you don't actually have a response and are hiding behind your dismissive comments. Your whole post was full of "simple little replys".

I addressed the point about paying for protection. Sure wealth is relative, so what? It still costs more to protect your property when there is no competitive market for protection. This applies for everyone, regardless of wealth available. Do you dispute this?


As to your other post. What assumptions about the free market have I made that are false? Let's get to the heart of the matter here.
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