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Poll
Question: Will you be switching to ASIC?
I own non-BFL FPGA and I'm switching to BFL ASIC
I own non-BFL FPGA and I'm waiting to switch to non-BFL ASIC
I own BFL FPGA and I'm switching to BFL ASIC
I own BFL FPGA and I'm waiting to switch to non-BFL ASIC
I own GPUs, and I'm switching to BFL ASIC
I own GPUs, and I'm waiting to switch to non-BFL ASIC
I am quitting mining
Other
I will continue mining with my GPUs
I will continue mining with my FPGAs

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Author Topic: [Poll]Will you be switching to ASIC?  (Read 6593 times)
ldrgn
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July 15, 2012, 06:59:19 AM
 #61

ASICs can be eventually integrated into other, more casual items, like cars, public bitcoincard processing hubs, even laptops and cellphones.

This won't happen because those small mining units will be inefficient (compared to a dedicated mining rig with minimal variable costs) and will likely run at a loss.  You've also got to have storage space for the block chain, a fat enough pipe to handle the bajillion transactions per block in the Bitcoin of the future, cooling and all kinds of stuff that makes mining in anything else than a dedicated setup with low costs unprofitable.
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July 15, 2012, 11:17:26 PM
 #62

Well, I could say you have to have a banking license, 'just to participate' in banking business. You need a license for frequency 'just to participate' in communication business. And there are no small licenses for starters, i.e. not affordable for an average person. Bitcoin personal banking system lets you 'mine' at very low cost. Right now you're complaining that in order to dig for gold you have to buy a shovel, since all gold on the surface is gone and you can't just take it with your hands, so to speak. However, unlike shovels for gold digging, ASICs can be eventually integrated into other, more casual items, like cars, public bitcoincard processing hubs, even laptops and cellphones. That's if Bitcoin becomes widely accepted....

I think trying to compare mining bitcoin to two federally regulated industries is a bit of a straw-man argument. With that said I'm not even going to bother talking about those points.  As per your shovel and mining gold analogy:  I view digging with your hands akin to CPU mining and the shovel akin to GPU mining.  You can mine for gold with a shovel, sure. You can also pot plants; dig a grave, ditch, hole; and clean up dog shit.  A shovel is a pretty versatile tool that can be used for many other things than digging for gold.  In fact, a lot of people already own shovels so re-purposing the shovel to dig for gold means anyone who owns a shovel can potentially dig for gold.  I suppose one could say that the FPGA is like a back-ho.  It's much more efficient, however it costs more to purchase and at the end of the day, in most places you need to be a ticketed operator to use one.  I view the ASIC kind of like a specialized industry specific machine:



 It's going to be insanely efficient at serving it's purpose (ignoring cost), and it's not something you have just kicking around the backyard.  It's also got no real use outside of it's intended industry.

All of those points aside, I think there's a massive disconnect between the current ASIC state and having manufacturers designing BTC mining ASIC into everyday appliances.  Do you honestly think you're going to see GM shipping trucks that mine bitcoins while you drive at any point, ever?  
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July 16, 2012, 05:10:37 AM
 #63

Well, I could say you have to have a banking license, 'just to participate' in banking business. You need a license for frequency 'just to participate' in communication business. And there are no small licenses for starters, i.e. not affordable for an average person. Bitcoin personal banking system lets you 'mine' at very low cost. Right now you're complaining that in order to dig for gold you have to buy a shovel, since all gold on the surface is gone and you can't just take it with your hands, so to speak. However, unlike shovels for gold digging, ASICs can be eventually integrated into other, more casual items, like cars, public bitcoincard processing hubs, even laptops and cellphones. That's if Bitcoin becomes widely accepted....

I think trying to compare mining bitcoin to two federally regulated industries is a bit of a straw-man argument. With that said I'm not even going to bother talking about those points.  As per your shovel and mining gold analogy:  I view digging with your hands akin to CPU mining and the shovel akin to GPU mining.  You can mine for gold with a shovel, sure. You can also pot plants; dig a grave, ditch, hole; and clean up dog shit.  A shovel is a pretty versatile tool that can be used for many other things than digging for gold.  In fact, a lot of people already own shovels so re-purposing the shovel to dig for gold means anyone who owns a shovel can potentially dig for gold.  I suppose one could say that the FPGA is like a back-ho.  It's much more efficient, however it costs more to purchase and at the end of the day, in most places you need to be a ticketed operator to use one.  I view the ASIC kind of like a specialized industry specific machine:



 It's going to be insanely efficient at serving it's purpose (ignoring cost), and it's not something you have just kicking around the backyard.  It's also got no real use outside of it's intended industry.

All of those points aside, I think there's a massive disconnect between the current ASIC state and having manufacturers designing BTC mining ASIC into everyday appliances.  Do you honestly think you're going to see GM shipping trucks that mine bitcoins while you drive at any point, ever?  

Yes, you've provided a better analogy. But imagine being able to have that huge machinery (or a small one) which does it's work without you having to drive it or do anything? Just plug-n-...work Smiley. That's what I'm trying to get through here. I have no idea if we ever see cars with ASICs on board, just like I had no idea if we will ever see a car with tv, computer, hybrid power and etc... Time will show, sorry for using cliches.

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July 16, 2012, 06:06:01 AM
 #64

so this survey is a bit useless


An interesting question that I hope this poll will answer is what existing non-BFL FPGA miners will do.

Will they sell their device on the secondary market to recoup costs or continue mining because the incremental cost to do so is next-to-nothing?



If ASICs hit the market, I will be reprogramming my FPGAs to undertake other business work such as LTC mining, cracking lost passwords as a commercial spin off or some other number crunching venture.

This sort of thing is not for the average Joe but then again I am an electrical / electronics engineer whom should be able to pick it up over a few weeks.

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July 17, 2012, 08:11:08 AM
 #65

There are only 7200 coins to be mined every day no matter what kind of mining machine people setup, this is a big difference compared to gold mining

Newer hardware and heavy investment just redistribute a portion of the daily coin to people who have higher hashing power, and unless the BTC value increase exponentially, their return on investment will drop quickly as they invest more, I think this is the most interesting part in BTC


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July 18, 2012, 01:35:15 PM
 #66

There are only 7200 coins to be mined every day no matter what kind of mining machine people setup, this is a big difference compared to gold mining

Newer hardware and heavy investment just redistribute a portion of the daily coin to people who have higher hashing power, and unless the BTC value increase exponentially, their return on investment will drop quickly as they invest more, I think this is the most interesting part in BTC


You're right, ultimately the demand for investment is dictated by exchange rate , and thus the difficulty too.

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July 18, 2012, 08:16:34 PM
 #67

I own GPUs, and I'm switching to BFL ASIC, i choose this one Grin
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July 18, 2012, 08:18:56 PM
 #68

I think I'll pre-order a 2~4 Jalapenos soon...
But don't know yet...
I'm still buying some 7970...

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July 20, 2012, 08:02:38 PM
 #69

I think the BFL ASIC numbers could be close to accurate...If we look at academic research we can see that 5x speedup over FPGA is feasible on ASIC.  In fact, considering the type of algorithm that mining requires there are several papers documenting similar algorithms achieving a 4-5x speedup on ASIC over FGPA.

Now crunch a little numbers...

BFL puts two 2 FGPA  in BF single, so that's ~415 Mhash/s per FPGA.  Assume they can achieve the maximum speedup, 5x, over their FGPA = 2.075 Ghash/s per chip.  

One chip won't reach the 3.5 GHash/s reported for Jalapeno, so it means Jalapeno must have 2 ASICS (and also that they are probably not achieved the 5x speedup), at $149 per Jalapeno thats ~$75 per chip.

Single SC is at 40Gh/s that's ~19 (lets just say 20 because probably not exactly 5x speedup) chips that's $1299/20 = $61.00 per chip

Mini rig at 1Th/s is ~500 (!) chips.  At $30000 that's $60.00 per chip


Now the question is if they can raise enough funds to cover the total production cost (~12 mill for $26.00 per chip using the estimation I found) and deliver by October.

This is of course just back of the envelope calculations, but it does show that their numbers are feasible..

BitCoiner2012
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August 16, 2012, 09:17:56 PM
 #70

Well, I could say you have to have a banking license, 'just to participate' in banking business. You need a license for frequency 'just to participate' in communication business. And there are no small licenses for starters, i.e. not affordable for an average person. Bitcoin personal banking system lets you 'mine' at very low cost. Right now you're complaining that in order to dig for gold you have to buy a shovel, since all gold on the surface is gone and you can't just take it with your hands, so to speak. However, unlike shovels for gold digging, ASICs can be eventually integrated into other, more casual items, like cars, public bitcoincard processing hubs, even laptops and cellphones. That's if Bitcoin becomes widely accepted....

I think trying to compare mining bitcoin to two federally regulated industries is a bit of a straw-man argument. With that said I'm not even going to bother talking about those points.  As per your shovel and mining gold analogy:  I view digging with your hands akin to CPU mining and the shovel akin to GPU mining.  You can mine for gold with a shovel, sure. You can also pot plants; dig a grave, ditch, hole; and clean up dog shit.  A shovel is a pretty versatile tool that can be used for many other things than digging for gold.  In fact, a lot of people already own shovels so re-purposing the shovel to dig for gold means anyone who owns a shovel can potentially dig for gold.  I suppose one could say that the FPGA is like a back-ho.  It's much more efficient, however it costs more to purchase and at the end of the day, in most places you need to be a ticketed operator to use one.  I view the ASIC kind of like a specialized industry specific machine:



 It's going to be insanely efficient at serving it's purpose (ignoring cost), and it's not something you have just kicking around the backyard.  It's also got no real use outside of it's intended industry.


Good thinking, love this analogy.  I am still very skeptical of ASIC though.. we will see. I don't know much about mining, though. Just what I learn inexorably.

BTC Long.
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August 28, 2012, 03:24:12 PM
 #71

i really wonder how many gpu miners will be switching to LTC when asic comes out.  a couple posts mentioned it, but LTC could really take off if all the current (minus fpga) hashing power went over to LTC.  perhaps another poll is in order.
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August 29, 2012, 12:01:02 AM
 #72

I think there's a lot of angle's here but this is the evolution of bitcoins.
ACIS were not made specifically for bit coins
they existed before., bitcoin is not a get rich quick scheme
so even if the profit so low for GPU when ASIC drops
it depends on the person if they want to upgrade.

Also one big thing butterfly labs is an american company
and this product at 1333.00 and 30g's we aren't talking cheap
they are helt over a standard and at 6000+ order i don't
think they plan on disappointing they have come through
with there mini rig's in the past., so the logical thing if
your going to keep mining is to go in with ASIC 
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