‘Bitcoin is Teaching Realism to Libertarians': An Interview With Old-School

[jabo38]

‘Bitcoin is Teaching Realism to Libertarians': An Interview With Old-School Cypherpunk Vinay Gupta" https://bitcoinmagazine.com/18000/bitcoin-is-teaching-realism-to-libertarians-an-interview-with-old-school-cypherpunk-vinay-gupta/

And my reply is this.....

Centralized or decentralized isn't really the issue, each is good for its own thing.  The real problem, the one that is hinted at in this article is that systems have been designed flawed time and time again.  Humans have a flawed nature.  They are prideful, greedy, distrustful and lazy; they lust after power/fame/prestige.  And these are just the start of the faults.  These flaws in human nature lead people to lie, cheat, steal, fight, kill, revenge, manipulate and objectify others.  All good systems address these things well, some go after the flaws in human nature, some go after trying to limit bad actions, and some systems target both.  But almost all systems designed today from the Bitcoin foundation, the government, to the military, to a family unit have systems where human flaws haven’t been adequately addressed and the actions of bad actors acting on those flaws aren’t kept in check. 

Bitcoin was and still is an amazing system because it solved one of these key problems, the problem of trust.  I now can know with certainty by looking at the blockchain if somebody is lying when they said they sent the money.  That is all it does and not much more, but that in itself is a pretty big deal as prior to Satoshi, nobody had figured out a way with certainty to solve this problem.  But Bitcoin is still susceptible in other aspects of its design to flaws of human nature and does little to nothing to prevent people from acting on those flaws (thus the Wild West nature of Bitcoin).  As the article points out very clearly, what we need is a better crypto, developed and maintained in a better way, by and directed by an organization that is designed better and do this all in a way that takes in account for human flaws and those actions that they lead to. 

Here are major systems and their weak points.

Communism/Socialism as applied in the world today doesn’t address laziness.  Why should I work harder than you when I will get paid the same amount?

Capitalism addresses laziness by exploiting the fact that people are greedy.  It says that, “he who works the best gets the most results” but in reality there is no proper checks in capitalism as it exists today to keep people from lying, cheating and stealing, so in reality the form of capitalism we have today turns into “he who cheats the most gets the best results”. 

Democracy as it is applied today fails because it fails to offer checks on politicians greed and lust for fame and power.  In theory a vote could check this, but as applied today politicians have made it so that the people’s vote doesn’t stop the corruption in the system. 

Dictatorships as they are implemented today because inevitably the dictators lust after power, fame, and wealth, and after sometime no matter how good intended they are become warped and have a sense of entitlement.  Until one is in the position, it is hard to imagine just how strong the forces are that will overwhelm a person pushing them to act in a way that doesn’t benefit their people. 

When examining systems that have existed for a long time, sooner or later the flaws in the system become very apparent and even systems that started out good will end up bad.  As the article states, “We’ve picked a new set of bureaucrats, and we’ve done so very carefully, they work for us. Today. Tick… tick… tick… Wow these guys are kind of jerks… Tick… tick… tick… Can we get rid of them? Maybe we should start a third Foundation!” But this doesn’t have to be the way, with careful consideration better organizations can be designed.  The blockchain has helped to address the human flaw of distrustfulness (and greed that leads to lying) by allowing us with certainty to know when someone is telling the truth.  If we as a community come together, we can use not just this, but other recent social and technological advances to overcome past flaws that have plagued us.  Will the systems be perfect?  No, they will not be, but they can still be much better. 

[runpaint]

I don't think dictators become warped; I think all people have that selfishness in them from the start.  If you give a man power and he starts doing terrible things, what changed?  Nothing but the amount of power he has.  So the only reason most people "act right" is because they don't have enough power to do what they really want. 

Why do celebrities and politicians start cheating on their wives when they become rich and famous?  Because they can.  They would've done it more before they were famous, but they didn't have the opportunity.  Why do dictators start murdering and stealing after they have absolute power over a nation?  Because they couldn't get away with it before they had the power.

Why do banks freeze people's money?  Because they can.  Why do policemen beat people?  Because they can.  Most policemen don't beat people, but some of them will always abuse their power, as long as they are given that power. 

So that is why the issue of trust is so important - we can't trust another human being with enough power over us to control our lives.  Because they will use that power, and we will be helpless against whatever they want to do. 

The only defense against tyranny is for each of us to secure our own power.  You want to be sure that no one can shoot your family?  Then get your own gun.  You want to be sure that no one can push you around, take your home, turn you into a refugee?  Then get your own money.  That's real equality - not depending on the powerful to "be fair", but becoming powerful yourself. 

[nextgencoin]

Capitalism with a sound monetary system is the best system we have. Unfortunately people are mistaken and have been convinced by the mass media that Capitalism doesnt work when actually what we have today is Crony Capitalism. The elite want to bring in more socialist system because this is a far better way for the elite to become rich and control the masses.

Without governmnt support for the banks and big business we wouldn't have any of the issues we are having in the west. For one thing if banks became insolvent they wouldn't be bailed out by the Federal reserve. They would and should collapse and that capital could be used for more productive endeavours.

No checks and balances for those who cheat? WTF are laws susposed to be? The problem is laws are either being created by those who want to use them to their own self interest through Lobbyists or simply not being upheld at all. Almost no arrests have occurred in the recent banking corruption. Not point fining a bank a few billion in they make 100 billion a year. We don't need a new system we sims need to reform the system back to what it was intended. No FED, no illegal money printing, making Lobbying illegal, small government, property laws upheld.


And for fucks sake can people from Northern America stop saying Democracy is not working in their country, America is susposed to be a Republic not a Democracy.

[BitNerd]

Capitalism with a sound monetary system is the best system we have. Unfortunately people are mistaken and have been convinced by the mass media that Capitalism doesnt work when actually what we have today is Crony Capitalism. The elite want to bring in more socialist system because this is a far better way for the elite to become rich and control the masses.

Without governmnt support for the banks and big business we wouldn't have any of the issues we are having in the west. For one thing if banks became insolvent they wouldn't be bailed out by the Federal reserve. They would and should collapse and that capital could be used for more productive endeavours.

No checks and balances for those who cheat? WTF are laws susposed to be? The problem is laws are either being created by those who want to use them to their own self interest through Lobbyists or simply not being upheld at all. Almost no arrests have occurred in the recent banking corruption. Not point fining a bank a few billion in they make 100 billion a year. We don't need a new system we sims need to reform the system back to what it was intended. No FED, no illegal money printing, making Lobbying illegal, small government, property laws upheld.


And for fucks sake can people from Northern America stop saying Democracy is not working in their country, America is susposed to be a Republic not a Democracy.

Nice post, I believe anarcho-capitalism is the way. No system can or should correct human flaws, but they can and should be made in such a way in which those flaws can't cause damage to other people. Or in which crime does not pay.

Dealing with human flaws directly, in the other hand, could be the role of religion or something of the sort (and it's up to each individual), it's certainly not the role of politics, economics, etc.

[Elwar]

Meh, we live in an anarchist world already.

The "governments" just prove the power of the fittest theory. They have the most power so they have the most control.

[BitNerd]

Meh, we live in an anarchist world already.

The "governments" just prove the power of the fittest theory. They have the most power so they have the most control.

Anarchist means no government, by no means do we live in an anarchist world.

[Elwar]

Meh, we live in an anarchist world already.

The "governments" just prove the power of the fittest theory. They have the most power so they have the most control.

Anarchist means no government, by no means do we live in an anarchist world.

In an anarchist world people would still be able to combine their power, use that power to control others and the group with the most power can control the most people and influence other groups of power.

Call it government or not, it is the same thing.

[BitNerd]

Meh, we live in an anarchist world already.

The "governments" just prove the power of the fittest theory. They have the most power so they have the most control.

Anarchist means no government, by no means do we live in an anarchist world.

In an anarchist world people would still be able to combine their power, use that power to control others and the group with the most power can control the most people and influence other groups of power.

Call it government or not, it is the same thing.

It's not a government when there are no forced taxes and forced monopoly. Yes, power will always exist, but power and government are not the same thing.

[jyakulis]

I liked this article a lot. I believe the original inventor of bitcoin had this fundamental thought in mind when creating the system. That being: 1) power corrupts 2) the worst people tend to gravitate toward positions of power because they like exploiting others. These two facts likely led the original inventor to ponder the question: How can a system be put in place where peoples inherent fundamental flaws will not be allowed to corrupt the system? Or almost how can we create money without someone punching in the 0's in a computer?

Even the decision to remain open source was brilliant. If the original team would of patented bitcoin back then when the cease and desist came there would have been "owners" held accountable. Leaving it open sourced not just prevented powerful people from coming in and corrupting the system, but it also prevented powerful people from coming in and shutting down the system.

[Elwar]

It's not a government when there are no forced taxes and forced monopoly. Yes, power will always exist, but power and government are not the same thing.

As long as someone has more power than you or your group, they can control your life. That includes making you give them money.

If you sit down in a park and open a bottle of wine a man with a hat and a gun might come up to you and say you are not allowed to drink that there. Fortunately you have a gun so the two of you are of equal power...but he gets on his radio and calls his friends who also have guns. You have some friends with guns too and you call them and they come to protect you. They see this and they call some guys in big trucks and riot gear. You call your militia buddies who are trained for this type of thing. They call friends with helicopters and tanks. And on and on it goes, them bringing out jets that you have no response to.

Which gives that man with the hat more power than you sitting in a park. So you have to do whatever he says.

Survival of the fittest. Everything else "government" and procedure and elections are just a show to make it easier to take more power from people without them resisting.

[BitNerd]

It's not a government when there are no forced taxes and forced monopoly. Yes, power will always exist, but power and government are not the same thing.

As long as someone has more power than you or your group, they can control your life. That includes making you give them money.

If you sit down in a park and open a bottle of wine a man with a hat and a gun might come up to you and say you are not allowed to drink that there. Fortunately you have a gun so the two of you are of equal power...but he gets on his radio and calls his friends who also have guns. You have some friends with guns too and you call them and they come to protect you. They see this and they call some guys in big trucks and riot gear. You call your militia buddies who are trained for this type of thing. They call friends with helicopters and tanks. And on and on it goes, them bringing out jets that you have no response to.

Which gives that man with the hat more power than you sitting in a park. So you have to do whatever he says.

Survival of the fittest. Everything else "government" and procedure and elections are just a show to make it easier to take more power from people without them resisting.

Guns maintain power but are not necessarily the source of it. The idea of anarcho-capitalism is that the free market distributes power according to free competition, and it would be too costly to try to force monopoly (it is, but nowadays it's costly to the people and profitable to an elite).

Try to study anarcho-capitalism. There are some good videos about it on Youtube. It's all about whether or not the state has the power to steal private property and force monopoly. Private rules in the other hand could be abusive but they are not necessarily a government.

I never said there wouldn't be abuse of power in anarcho-capitalism, but I do believe there would be much less of it.

Which gives that man with the hat more power than you sitting in a park. So you have to do whatever he says.

Not if an abuse of power by a mega security company will spread on the internet and make it lose hundreds of contracts around the world and losing its market to a rival company.

[Bit_Happy]

"...Everybody thought Bitcoin was gonna bring them freedom and liberty, but what it has brought them are three different kinds of entrapment. Let’s take these lessons, and make a Bitcoin that is useless to Wall Street, that doesn’t automatically create a cartel of miners, and that doesn’t leave a power vacuum for development which some Foundation will fill...."

Even if you do not agree, that article is a great read, thanks.

[TheDreadPirateDickstein]

YEs.....yes it is.

hehehehehe

[gogxmagog]

I like the things this guy has to say.
When I first heard of bitcoin, the technology made a lot of sense, but the politics (or the potential) are what sold me.
He puts it in very easy to understand terms. Everyone here should read this article.