[ANN] Introducing the Mt.Gox Trusted Vendor Program

[LoupGaroux]

My point exactly... monopolies are bad, monopolies taking it upon themselves to anoint who is "trusted" and who is not, is even worse. This is a predictable step for an overpowering player in a market to make to cement their control of the market eg: If Business X is willing to play with Gox, then X will become a trusted vendor, regardless of what X might be up to because Gox has to validate their system by having "trusted vendors". Just as I wouldn't trust an auto company to make reasonable standards for the safety of their product, I don't consider the 800 pound gorilla of exchanges deciding who is a good vendor or not by criteria that they and they alone set.

And that's before we even get to the AML/KYC issues. Anyone who has had legal or business dealings in Japan can speak to the challenges if government decides they want to access your data/customer base/transaction histories, and Mt Gox is based where? There you go. They have no choice but to lay down and play nice if a single ministry so much as looks at then sideways, no court orders, no due process and no particular reason required.

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[Mike Hearn]

I don't see how this could be leveraged into monopoly unless people stop trusting any merchant that isn't MtGox verified. If that happens, all it means is we need to do a better job of building out trustworthy markets and dispute mediation protocols. Not a problem.

[Technomage]

I think that some people are reading too much into this based on some weird government paranoia. This has nothing to do with the government, it has to do with Bitcoin users being able to trust that a merchant is a real person or a real company. Bitcoin is the wild west of the Internet after all and trust is what keeps it together. More trust is better.

There are other ways though, for instance the extended validation certificate is a good way of adding trust. Our company doesn't quite afford that yet but we'll make the upgrade at some point.

[matonis]

Another good step in the right direction would be to actually pay people the funds they withdrew. 

This is the essence of the issue, really, for any BTC exchanger or vendor. As bitcoin moves into the area of Tor and 'lex mercatoria' with less dependence on State-invented regulations like AML/KYC or the BSA of 1970, trust without jurisdiction moves to the forefront.

We are reminded that money laundering is an artificial crime totally made up and non-existent about 20-30 years ago. Before it was invented as a term, it was merely called "banking".

http://www.caseyresearch.com/cdd/doug-casey-cashless-societies

[Mt.Gox Support]

It seems that a lot of people see us as "EVIL" and the next bad thing to kill or abolish... Well this is "normal" after all, MtGox has been the leading exchange since quite sometimes now and despite having many different new players coming in we are still on top, so yes we understand that to some we can be seen as monopolistic despite the fact that we are just a drop in the Bitcoin Ocean. Mt.Gox is not Bitcoin and will never be, we are just an exchange with a huge volume and more track records that many others today. Today it is us, tomorrow it may be someone else and we live with it, but we are working hard to keep our edge with our Merchant Solution and this new Trusted Vendor program.

Now to make things worse (for us) we have a fully acknowledge Withdrawal problem with Dwolla and by now you must ALL KNOW the reason why, there is also a small number of international withdrawal that are affected, but this as well we have been explained many times : most of the time user affected reach a threshold with several withdrawal that can trigger a check from a GVT or a BNK. And when a company with our volume start to send huge amount of money on a daily basis to international costumers we are subject to random checks, like for example at the airport/immigration.
Most people do not understand the situation here and see the problem with their local point of view. Tomorrow Mr Jon Doe could start an exchange in the US, Open an account and deal with US customers. This I can tell you will not raise any problems at first, start to deal with a lot more of money and customers and become the 2nd Tradehill (in Volume) and you will see how things will turn. Now add a layer of "Internationalization" to it and "voila" you do not have one more country or bank to deal with but a lot more and a lot more potential problem and risks.

Tight verification, yeah I know you all hate it, after all Bitcoin was supposed to be the holy grail of anonymity, and actually Bitcoin is pretty close to it IF and ONLY IF you Mine coins and spend coins without ever needing to cash IN/OU these coins. But reality force us, at some point to deal with Banks that are not seeing the overall Bitcoin thingy the same we we see it. We are no different than you, we value our privacy but we do not have a choice. If we do not comply with such basic verification process we will sooner or later loose all our financial partner due to fraud and risk meaning that ultimately you will no longer be able to buy or sell your coin. And this my dear friends ANY Bitcoin company Helping you yo cash IN/OUT have or will have to deal with it at one point, this is JUST a question of time.

Are we perfect? No! But we are working into making things faster and safer for our customers and hope to achieve perfection at some point. So this Trusted Vendor Program is nothing more than a seal (that will be soon be improved) let people know : Yes we know this merchant, they are legit and they gave us all documents to prove us that they are who they are.

[Mike Hearn]

My thanks to Mark and the other members of the MtGox team for being patient enough to explain all this (over and over again)

MtGox really is critical and we're lucky that the 'Tux is willing to spend so much time dealing with bankers and lawyers on our behalf.

[davout]

It seems that a lot of people see us as "EVIL" and the next bad thing to kill or abolish... Well this is "normal" after all, MtGox has been the leading exchange since quite sometimes now and despite having many different new players coming in we are still on top, so yes we understand that to some we can be seen as monopolistic despite the fact that we are just a drop in the Bitcoin Ocean. Mt.Gox is not Bitcoin and will never be, we are just an exchange with a huge volume and more track records that many others today. Today it is us, tomorrow it may be someone else and we live with it, but we are working hard to keep our edge with our Merchant Solution and this new Trusted Vendor program.

Now to make things worse (for us) we have a fully acknowledge Withdrawal problem with Dwolla and by now you must ALL KNOW the reason why, there is also a small number of international withdrawal that are affected, but this as well we have been explained many times : most of the time user affected reach a threshold with several withdrawal that can trigger a check from a GVT or a BNK. And when a company with our volume start to send huge amount of money on a daily basis to international costumers we are subject to random checks, like for example at the airport/immigration.
Most people do not understand the situation here and see the problem with their local point of view. Tomorrow Mr Jon Doe could start an exchange in the US, Open an account and deal with US customers. This I can tell you will not raise any problems at first, start to deal with a lot more of money and customers and become the 2nd Tradehill (in Volume) and you will see how things will turn. Now add a layer of "Internationalization" to it and "voila" you do not have one more country or bank to deal with but a lot more and a lot more potential problem and risks.

Tight verification, yeah I know you all hate it, after all Bitcoin was supposed to be the holy grail of anonymity, and actually Bitcoin is pretty close to it IF and ONLY IF you Mine coins and spend coins without ever needing to cash IN/OU these coins. But reality force us, at some point to deal with Banks that are not seeing the overall Bitcoin thingy the same we we see it. We are no different than you, we value our privacy but we do not have a choice. If we do not comply with such basic verification process we will sooner or later loose all our financial partner due to fraud and risk meaning that ultimately you will no longer be able to buy or sell your coin. And this my dear friends ANY Bitcoin company Helping you yo cash IN/OUT have or will have to deal with it at one point, this is JUST a question of time.

Are we perfect? No! But we are working into making things faster and safer for our customers and hope to achieve perfection at some point. So this Trusted Vendor Program is nothing more than a seal (that will be soon be improved) let people know : Yes we know this merchant, they are legit and they gave us all documents to prove us that they are who they are.

+100

My thanks to Mark and the other members of the MtGox team for being patient enough to explain all this (over and over again)

MtGox really is critical and we're lucky that the 'Tux is willing to spend so much time dealing with bankers and lawyers on our behalf.

I'm sure he gets a very fair compensation for his trouble

[edd]

Just to be clear, I have never had a problem with Mt. Gox and I use them on a regular basis. I've even corresponded with Mark and others and they've been nothing but professional.

A "trusted by Mt. Gox" emblem, however, seems to me will be as helpful as belonging to the Better Business Bureau: giving the impression of more integrity than what's been earned and easily susceptible to corruption. My first boss once told me that the BBB kept files on businesses with details of customer complaints and your file "conveniently" improved once you joined and began paying dues. I never had an opportunity to verify this, but the point is, the checks and balances necessary to prevent it just aren't there.

[matonis]

It seems that a lot of people see us as "EVIL" and the next bad thing to kill or abolish... Well this is "normal" after all, MtGox has been the leading exchange since quite sometimes now and despite having many different new players coming in we are still on top, so yes we understand that to some we can be seen as monopolistic despite the fact that we are just a drop in the Bitcoin Ocean. Mt.Gox is not Bitcoin and will never be, we are just an exchange with a huge volume and more track records that many others today. Today it is us, tomorrow it may be someone else and we live with it, but we are working hard to keep our edge with our Merchant Solution and this new Trusted Vendor program.

Personally, I do not see Mt Gox as evil and I applaud the work that they are doing in the front lines of where BTC meets national currencies. Furthermore, their non-US legal jurisdiction should serve them well in the future.

[niko]

All the previous (and old) discussion aside, I cannot find a list of currently trusted vendors available on Mt.Gox Website. The way I see it now, anyone can put a logo on their Website and link to https://mtgox.com/press_release_20120705.html

How does this "improve confidence in Bitcoin businesses for consumers"? A consumer cannot easily verify that a business is verified by Mt.Gox as trusted.

[julz]

All the previous (and old) discussion aside, I cannot find a list of currently trusted vendors available on Mt.Gox Website. The way I see it now, anyone can put a logo on their Website and link to https://mtgox.com/press_release_20120705.html

How does this "improve confidence in Bitcoin businesses for consumers"? A consumer cannot easily verify that a business is verified by Mt.Gox as trusted.

Any update on this?  I found this thread because I saw a particular business claiming to be a Mt.Gox trusted vendor and I want to verify it.
btradeaustralia.com

Has MtGox really implemented a 'trusted vendor program' without any easy way to confirm?? Bizarre.

[edd]

All the previous (and old) discussion aside, I cannot find a list of currently trusted vendors available on Mt.Gox Website. The way I see it now, anyone can put a logo on their Website and link to https://mtgox.com/press_release_20120705.html

How does this "improve confidence in Bitcoin businesses for consumers"? A consumer cannot easily verify that a business is verified by Mt.Gox as trusted.

Any update on this?  I found this thread because I saw a particular business claiming to be a Mt.Gox trusted vendor and I want to verify it.
btradeaustralia.com

Has MtGox really implemented a 'trusted vendor program' without any easy way to confirm?? Bizarre.

I had just assumed this idea had died on the vine. How odd that a relatively unknown site is chosen as a "trusted" vendor over any that Mt. Gox has a professional relationship with.

The design of the trusted vendor logo at btradeaustralia.com instills very little confidence, however.