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Author Topic: Ponzi "Game" == Negative Trust?  (Read 8367 times)
redsn0w
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# Free market


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January 17, 2015, 05:54:20 AM
 #61

In this case I agree with quickseller and stunna ( they have already give a valid explanation). At the end the problem is :

Where is the odds in a Ponzi scheme ? Please don't call them "ponzi games" because it isn't a 'game'.
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January 17, 2015, 12:50:26 PM
 #62

In this case I agree with quickseller and stunna ( they have already give a valid explanation). At the end the problem is :

Where is the odds in a Ponzi scheme ? Please don't call them "ponzi games" because it isn't a 'game'.

Where is the odds in a poker game?

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# Free market


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January 17, 2015, 12:51:42 PM
 #63

In this case I agree with quickseller and stunna ( they have already give a valid explanation). At the end the problem is :

Where is the odds in a Ponzi scheme ? Please don't call them "ponzi games" because it isn't a 'game'.

Where is the odds in a poker game?

What is the final purpose of a ponzi schemes ? I think all we know the history or not ?
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January 17, 2015, 01:03:26 PM
 #64

The majority of people indeed lose money dicing, however the odds are extremely straight forward more so than any other gambling game and the edge is pretty minuscule at 1%. Dice is a sustainable and provably fair game of entertainment, Ponzi games ALWAYS end with users getting scammed as one user's funds are used to pay another user a premium and ultimately someone if not multiple people will lose all their money. They almost never have any value in terms of entertainment, it's hard to call them games when really they are high risk securities if anything.

The term scammed means swindled, or cheated IE the other party you are trading with did not fulfill their side of the deal. How are they not fulfilling their side when they are clearly stating it is a ponzi?

I find it hard to believe there is no entertainment. Thats a matter of opinion.

The core issue with ponzi games right now is that they aren't just scamming one individual, and they are rarely if ever provably fair. There used to be games like the bitcoin bear and bitcoin gem which were provably fair ponzi games. The risks were well advertised and only one user would be losing their "investment' per round. When these new ponzi games get a large enough investment they simply steal it and continue to take further deposits and steal those as well.  

So why don't we neg all forms of non-provably fair gambling then if there is something so wrong about it? lets neg all the sportsbetting websites.


I think it's extremely stupid for this forum to allow the serial scamming of users via openly letting ponzi owners advertise here. It shines an extremely negative light on this forum and bitcoin itself and puts the forum at legal risk.  

I think me and you have different definitions of the word scamming. If the other person fulfills their side of the deal and both parties are willingly trading, where did the scam occur?

And the ethos behind Bitcoin in general seems to be for free market trade and against regulation, so why do you think its ok to tell businesses not to use Bitcoin because it will shine a negative light on it? thats completely against the general beliefs of many Bitcoiners.

And I don't know for sure but I suspect you are a not a qualified lawyer so there is no way you can know if such websites put the form at legal risk, but I can't see how it could. And if it did put the forum at risk maybe it would be a good idea to fight the unjustice of that and try and set a precedence in order to protect free market trade. Did the forum have any legal problems when pirateat40 was prosecuted?

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January 17, 2015, 01:04:04 PM
 #65

What is the final purpose of a ponzi schemes ? I think all we know the history or not ?

Their purpose? To make money for the owners? like any other business

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January 17, 2015, 01:05:25 PM
 #66

What is the final purpose of a ponzi schemes ? I think all we know the history or not ?

Their purpose? To make money for the owners? like any other business

That taco truck over there, big ass scam... Selling tacos to make money. I'm pretty sure one day they'll just run with our money.

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# Free market


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January 17, 2015, 01:08:37 PM
 #67

What is the final purpose of a ponzi schemes ? I think all we know the history or not ?

Their purpose? To make money for the owners? like any other business

Ok , thanks for the information. So in this case all the ponzi schemes are legit , no problem.
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January 17, 2015, 01:09:48 PM
 #68

What is the final purpose of a ponzi schemes ? I think all we know the history or not ?

Their purpose? To make money for the owners? like any other business

Ok , thanks for the information. So in this case all the ponzi schemes are legit , no problem.

Redsnow we are talking about goddamn ponzi games... Not ponzi schemes.

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# Free market


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January 17, 2015, 01:11:45 PM
 #69

What is the final purpose of a ponzi schemes ? I think all we know the history or not ?

Their purpose? To make money for the owners? like any other business

Ok , thanks for the information. So in this case all the ponzi schemes are legit , no problem.

Redsnow we are talking about goddamn ponzi games... Not ponzi schemes.

The ponzi games working around the ponzi schemes , because if I will invest for first and no one after me invest I will not receive nothing. So the base of a ponzi game , is a ponzi scheme.

You canno't talk about the ponzi games , they  don't exist.
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January 17, 2015, 01:13:16 PM
 #70

I think you can actually see these "Ponzi games" as games. IF they atleast exactly state how they work: state that the last ones will not get paid and that every new entry pays the outstanding dept for earlier participants.

If that's stated very clearly, I think participants know the rules of the game. If they participate afterwards, they know the risks.

I think there actually is some "gambling" part in such games as you need to be lucky in both kind of games. Sure, you know the probability about how big your changes are to win (or loose) in for example a Dice game, and these probabilities are unknown in the Ponzi games. They unknown because they are based on the incoming BTC's after you participated, and no one can predict that.  Therefore I think you can see it as a way of gambling. You know the risk, and you take the risk by participating.


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January 17, 2015, 01:14:01 PM
 #71

What is the final purpose of a ponzi schemes ? I think all we know the history or not ?

Their purpose? To make money for the owners? like any other business

Ok , thanks for the information. So in this case all the ponzi schemes are legit , no problem.

Redsnow we are talking about goddamn ponzi games... Not ponzi schemes.

The ponzi games working around the ponzi schemes , because if I will invest for first and no one after me invest I will not receive nothing. So the base of a ponzi game , is a ponzi scheme.

You canno't talk about the ponzi games , they  don't exist.

Ponzi schemes don't tell you they are ponzis. These games do because they are telling people that giving their money is a gamble, you may or may not get it back. People should know that because they freaking tell you

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January 17, 2015, 01:15:05 PM
 #72

I think you can actually see these "Ponzi games" as games. IF they atleast exactly state how they work: state that the last ones will not get paid and that every new entry pays the outstanding dept for earlier participants.

If that's stated very clearly, I think participants know the rules of the game. If they participate afterwards, they know the risks.

I think there actually is some "gambling" part in such games as you need to be lucky in both kind of games. Sure, you know the probability about how big your changes are to win (or loose) in for example a Dice game, and these probabilities are unknown in the Ponzi games. They unknown because they are based on the incoming BTC's after you participated, and no one can predict that.  Therefore I think you can see it as a way of gambling. You know the risk, and you take the risk by participating.



Exactly, the fact that most of them display the risks right in front of you is why they are games. Simpley a gambling game.

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# Free market


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January 17, 2015, 01:15:25 PM
 #73

Ponzi schemes don't tell you they are ponzis. These games do because they are telling people that giving their money is a gamble, you may or may not get it back. People should know that because they freaking tell you

Ok , no problem. This is your opinion , and I accept it.   However what do you think for the question about the secondary "child board" only for those ponzi games ?
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January 17, 2015, 01:15:40 PM
 #74

If these games are openly labeled as ponzi then you play at your own risk. It's up to the players of these games to be responsible with their money and educate themselves.
IMHO, a Negative isn't needed although perhaps a Neutral and a simple warning post in that particular thread.

When the subject of buying BTC with Paypal comes up, I often remember this: 

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein
michaeladair
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January 17, 2015, 01:16:31 PM
 #75

Ponzi schemes don't tell you they are ponzis. These games do because they are telling people that giving their money is a gamble, you may or may not get it back. People should know that because they freaking tell you

Ok , no problem. This is your opinion , and I accept it.

This isn't my opinion, its the flat out truth. Go to any popular ponzi game and see that they display the risks.

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January 17, 2015, 01:16:42 PM
 #76

What is the final purpose of a ponzi schemes ? I think all we know the history or not ?

Their purpose? To make money for the owners? like any other business

Ok , thanks for the information. So in this case all the ponzi schemes are legit , no problem.

Redsnow we are talking about goddamn ponzi games... Not ponzi schemes.

The ponzi games working around the ponzi schemes , because if I will invest for first and no one after me invest I will not receive nothing. So the base of a ponzi game , is a ponzi scheme.

You canno't talk about the ponzi games , they  don't exist.

I think because these Ponzi games are working around the ponzi schemes (which they do), does make you able to talk about ponzi games.

In my opinion something is a forbidden ponzi scheme IF the participants are NOT aware of the fact that they are participating in a ponzi scheme.   In (most) of these games, it's clearly stated that they are participating in a ponzi, and therefore explicitly take the risk that comes with the game by participating.

Whether of not these ponzi games should be banned from this forum or in total, I don't know. Personally I should allow them AS LONG AS they clearly mention the rules of the game, thus clearly mention that you are participating in a ponzi and therefore it's likely that you lose your investment (if your not one of the very early participants).

<< Curently quite inactive as I'm really busy in my private life. I will get back soon! >>
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# Free market


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January 17, 2015, 01:20:07 PM
 #77

Ponzi schemes don't tell you they are ponzis. These games do because they are telling people that giving their money is a gamble, you may or may not get it back. People should know that because they freaking tell you

Ok , no problem. This is your opinion , and I accept it.

This isn't my opinion, its the flat out truth. Go to any popular ponzi game and see that they display the risks.

Yes of course , feedback removed now try to discuss with tysat , quickseller, shorena etc...
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January 17, 2015, 01:21:04 PM
 #78

What is the final purpose of a ponzi schemes ? I think all we know the history or not ?

Their purpose? To make money for the owners? like any other business

Ok , thanks for the information. So in this case all the ponzi schemes are legit , no problem.

Not all. Are all the dice sites legit?

Let me break it down for everyone:

Argument #1: Ponzi sites are illegal
So are gambling websites that don't have the proper gambling licenses.
So are Bitcoin exchanges that do not have the proper money transmitter licenses or AML procedures.
So are lenders that don't abide by payday loan laws.
So are public performances of the song "Happy birthday to you" which is copyrighted by Warner/Chappell Music.

Argument #2: All ponzi sites are a scam

If the ponzi site fulfills their side of the deal and does exactly what they promise and both parties are willingly trading, where did the scam occur?

Argument #3: Ponzi's should be banned because they make Bitcoin look "bad"
Instead of banning ponzi's, why don't we make things a bit better and form a mining cartel, make a blacklist of bitcoin addresses known to be used by ponzi sites and never confirm any ponzi site payments?

 Wink

The general ethos of Bitcoin is for free market trade and against regulation. How can you actually believe that and at the same time be trying to ban people from using Bitcoin because it makes Bitcoin look bad?

Argument #4: Most ponzi sites aren't provably fair so they are scams
There is probably a way to make ponzi sites provably fair using tx scripts. But if ponzi sites are a scam due to the lack of provably fair, then so are all gambling sites that don't have provably fair, such as poker sites and sportsbook websites.

Argument #5: Ponzi's arent entertainment
People have different opinions on what entertainment is. It may not be entertaining for you, but I'm sure its entertaining for others.

Argument #6: Ponzi's are scams because people will lose money
There will always be people who lose money on any gambling website. Otherwise the website would be losing money.

Thats all the arguments I can think of right now.

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January 17, 2015, 01:22:25 PM
 #79

Ponzi schemes don't tell you they are ponzis. These games do because they are telling people that giving their money is a gamble, you may or may not get it back. People should know that because they freaking tell you

Ok , no problem. This is your opinion , and I accept it.

This isn't my opinion, its the flat out truth. Go to any popular ponzi game and see that they display the risks.

Yes of course , feedback removed now try to discuss with tysat , quickseller, shorena etc...

Thanks for understanding. But I don't think I'll be able to persuade quickseller myself... If someone else would like to try then please, go ahead.

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January 17, 2015, 01:32:10 PM
 #80

Gotta agree. Most of the ponzi game did say it is a ponzi game. To be honest, I dont look at the 'trust' when investing in ponzi schemes. Well, because I kniw people giving them 'red' without risking anything.

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